Possible change to startup.el

Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

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After I had another run-in on a German-spoken Usenet group about how
hard it was trying to google around for finding out about using Emacs
and Emacs terminology, in particular if you were not a native speaker
and so on, and getting the usual "how should I have known something
like this exists" reactions after quoting the relevant German tutorial
section, I would like to propose something like the following:


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: diffout --]
[-- Type: text/x-patch, Size: 925 bytes --]

*** /home/tmp/emacs/lisp/startup.el	2005-03-07 17:36:10.000000000 +0100
--- /usr/local/emacs-21/share/emacs/22.0.50/lisp/startup.el	2005-03-21 19:34:06.000000000 +0100
***************
*** 1298,1304 ****
  Recover Session		recover files you were editing before a crash
  
  Important Help menu items:
! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently.
  Emacs FAQ		Frequently asked questions and answers
  Read the Emacs Manual	View the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty		GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY
--- 1298,1305 ----
  Recover Session		recover files you were editing before a crash
  
  Important Help menu items:
! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in many languages)
! 			for using Emacs efficiently.
  Emacs FAQ		Frequently asked questions and answers
  Read the Emacs Manual	View the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty		GNU Emacs comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY

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I actually don't think that this will have any noticeable effect on
people whose eyes glaze over at the first English or technical word
(like "Help" in the menu bar), but it would give one a bigger clue bat
with which to whack them.

The disadvantage of the patch is that it makes the screen one line
longer.  I can't see a good way around it, except maybe dropping key
phrases like "efficiently" or "learn-by-doing".

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

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Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
   Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:44:37 +0100

   ! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in many languages)
   ! 			for using Emacs efficiently.

how about:

Emacs Tutorial: bg, cn, cs, de, en, es, fr, it, ja, ko, nl, pl, pt_BR,
                ro, ru, sk, sl, sv, th, zh

this is explicit, does not require understanding "in many languages",
and can be machine maintained, in addition to taking two lines.  i'm
sure someone will find a way to work animated flag images and clickable
widgets into this idea, that's the problem w/ creative programmers...

thi

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org> writes:

>    From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>    Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:44:37 +0100
>
>    ! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in many languages)
>    ! 			for using Emacs efficiently.
>
> how about:
>
> Emacs Tutorial: bg, cn, cs, de, en, es, fr, it, ja, ko, nl, pl, pt_BR,
>                 ro, ru, sk, sl, sv, th, zh
>
> this is explicit, does not require understanding "in many
> languages", and can be machine maintained, in addition to taking two
> lines.  i'm sure someone will find a way to work animated flag
> images and clickable widgets into this idea, that's the problem w/
> creative programmers...

I am afraid that the character version is not going to appeal to the
non-geek who probably never has heard of things like "sk".  However,
the clickable widget idea has merit, a tooltip with the full language
name would help quite a bit, and the flag idea definitely is a very
good idea: it is an eye-catcher, and usually pretty moron-accessible.
Giving the tutorial a non-textual click&drool appeal and associative
value might really be what is needed to get people to click there.

So where do we get copyright-free flag icons?  If they are the
official design, they should usually not be copyrightable in the first
place, I'd guess.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Andreas Schwab]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> So where do we get copyright-free flag icons?

KDE has a whole gallery.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:

> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> So where do we get copyright-free flag icons?
>
> KDE has a whole gallery.

Are you sure that those are in the public domain?  We are not talking
about "GPLed by some arbitrary party" here.  We can't use those
without a copyright assignment.

And if we go using some desktop software icons, it would make more
sense to take GNOME icons for consistency which we are using elsewhere
in Emacs.  Speaking of which we already must have gone through this
procedure with some GNOME icons before, so it should not be too
difficult to do it again.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Andreas Schwab]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

> Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:
>
>> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> So where do we get copyright-free flag icons?
>>
>> KDE has a whole gallery.
>
> Are you sure that those are in the public domain?

I have no idea, they carry no separate copyright notice.  For the record,
I'm talking about kdebase/l10n/*/flag.png in the KDE sources.

> And if we go using some desktop software icons, it would make more
> sense to take GNOME icons for consistency which we are using elsewhere
> in Emacs.

I can't see how a GNOME flag can be any different from a KDE flag. :-)

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Hansen]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 23:14:12 +0100 David Kastrup wrote:

> Andreas Schwab <schwab@suse.de> writes:
>
>> David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:
>>
>>> So where do we get copyright-free flag icons?
>>
>> KDE has a whole gallery.
>
> Are you sure that those are in the public domain?  We are not talking
> about "GPLed by some arbitrary party" here.  We can't use those
> without a copyright assignment.

Since when can you copyright a flag?  I bet these symbols
actually are in public domain and a small icon of them is not a
creative work.  But probably these times you have to ask a lawyer
before scribbling on a slip of paper.

David

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "David" == David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

>>> So where do we get copyright-free flag icons?

>> KDE has a whole gallery.

David> Are you sure that those are in the public domain?

The openclipart project at freedesktop.org has flag images, and all
of their stuff is public domain.

One can browse their collection of flags at:

http://www.openclipart.org/cgi-bin/navigate/signs_and_symbols/flags/

It is all svg, so can be rendered to pixmaps at whatever size one
desires.

-JimC
-- 
James H. Cloos, Jr. <cloos@jhcloos.com>

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

I have decided not to use flags to represent languages.
Please let's not discuss it any further.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org>
> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:50:14 -0500
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>    From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>    Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:44:37 +0100
> 
>    ! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in many languages)
>    ! 			for using Emacs efficiently.
> 
> how about:
> 
> Emacs Tutorial: bg, cn, cs, de, en, es, fr, it, ja, ko, nl, pl, pt_BR,
>                 ro, ru, sk, sl, sv, th, zh

How about simply

  Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in your language)

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:55:13 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
>   Emacs Tutorial                Learn-by-doing tutorial (in your language)

How about, if there's an appropriate locale set, putting the "in
LANGUAGE" -- except writing that phrase in LANGUAGE instead of
English.  That should really help it stand out visually too
(especially with non-latin fonts).

It'd need a little string translated for all the languages, but it's
so short that doesn't seem a big burden...

If you've got flag icons, then it could be "in LANGUAGE (FLAG)" for
even more super-standout appeal...

Make that phrase a hyperlink to the actual tutorial, and I'm not sure
if it would be possible to _prevent_ people from running it... :-)

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <fc339e4a05032122246a6a0184@mail.gmail.com>, Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:
> If you've got flag icons, then it could be "in LANGUAGE (FLAG)" for
> even more super-standout appeal...

What kind of flag do you mean?  If you mean "national flag",
I think it's a very bad idea.

---
Ken'ichi HANDA
handa@m17n.org

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:15:35 +0900 (JST), Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> wrote:
> > If you've got flag icons, then it could be "in LANGUAGE (FLAG)" for
> > even more super-standout appeal...
> 
> What kind of flag do you mean?  If you mean "national flag",
> I think it's a very bad idea.

Why?

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:15:35 +0900 (JST), Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> wrote:
>> > If you've got flag icons, then it could be "in LANGUAGE (FLAG)" for
>> > even more super-standout appeal...
>> 
>> What kind of flag do you mean?  If you mean "national flag",
>> I think it's a very bad idea.
>
> Why?

Well, I googled for flag icons, and there has been quite some uproar
on the Gnome list about that.  For one thing, it is rather annoying
for multi-lingual states since they don't have a flag for every
language.  And it may also be annoying to, say, the Swiss who get to
see flags of a bunch of different nations for the languages they speak
themselves.

For another, distributing any product in mainland China with a
Taiwanese flag is prohibited seemingly.

In short, it appears that flags are, apart from the mismatch between
state and language, loaded with connotations that the more naive under
us (like I am) are not able to fathom easily.  Sigh.

So I'd second the suggestion to translate the current locale into a
string, maybe something like

    hands-on tutorial (in Bulgarian and more).

Wait, wouldn't it be more friendly to make this

    "Deutsches Tutorial zum schnellen Erlernen von Emacs"

if we are doing a translation for the splash screen?  (Cogs turn).
While we are at it, we should offer the locale-identified national
tutorial "Deutsches Tutorial" as the top menu entry in "Help", letting
"other languages" follow behind (however, that would strongly that we
can be reasonably sure that the menus will support the charset
corresponding to the current locale.  We'd still have a menu entry for
"Tutorial (many languages)" as a fallback, so if occasionally junk
gets displayed, this will not be a total catastrophe, but it better
not crash).

And, uh, splash screen.  We are talking about 30 lines of text here.
I think we have a _significantly_ increased chance of jogging people's
attention to available Emacs resources if we translate the whole
splash kaboodle into the 15 languages or so that are involved here.

If people agree that this might be a good idea, I'd volunteer for
German.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Jason Rumney]

David Kastrup wrote:

>And it may also be annoying to, say, the Swiss who get to
>see flags of a bunch of different nations for the languages they speak
>themselves.
>  
>
More so to the English, who rarely get even a Union Jack to represent 
their language, let alone the George's Cross.

Flags are a terrible idea for representing language.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Werner LEMBERG]

> Wait, wouldn't it be more friendly to make this
> 
>     "Deutsches Tutorial zum schnellen Erlernen von Emacs"

Urgh, why not just

  Kurze Einführung in Emacs

It's really not necessary to emphasize `Deutsch' -- of course it would
be funny to have

  Österreichsche Einführung in Emacs


     Werner

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <fc339e4a05032200272dc39d59@mail.gmail.com>, Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:15:35 +0900 (JST), Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> wrote:
>>  > If you've got flag icons, then it could be "in LANGUAGE (FLAG)" for
>>  > even more super-standout appeal...
>>  
>>  What kind of flag do you mean?  If you mean "national flag",
>>  I think it's a very bad idea.

> Why?

Multiple countries use the same language as their native
language.  What national flag, do you think, is appropriate
for English, Spanish, Arabic, and Chinese, for instance.

---
Ken'ichi HANDA
handa@m17n.org

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 17:15:35 +0900 (JST), Kenichi Handa <handa@m17n.org> wrote:
>> What kind of flag do you mean?  If you mean "national flag",
>> I think it's a very bad idea.
>
> Why?

There is a good article explaining why using country flags as symbols
of languages is a bad idea: http://tech.irt.org/articles/js173/
(or http://www.cs.tut.fi/~jkorpela/flags.html).

> How about, if there's an appropriate locale set, putting the "in
> LANGUAGE" -- except writing that phrase in LANGUAGE instead of
> English.  That should really help it stand out visually too
> (especially with non-latin fonts).

There is a list of language names in etc/HELLO (also in the `sample-text'
property of the language info), so I think writing that phrase in the
same language as defined by locale is a good idea.  In addition to the
direct link to the appropriate tutorial, it will also immediately
indicate that Emacs supports the language of the user.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:24:27 +0900
> From: Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
> Cc: ttn@glug.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> On Tue, 22 Mar 2005 06:55:13 +0200, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote:
> >   Emacs Tutorial                Learn-by-doing tutorial (in your language)
> 
> How about, if there's an appropriate locale set, putting the "in
> LANGUAGE" -- except writing that phrase in LANGUAGE instead of
> English.

I think this is even better.

> It'd need a little string translated for all the languages

That string could be part of the same data structure that holds all
the language-specific issues, including the name of the tutorial to
visit.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@glug.org>
>> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 15:50:14 -0500
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> 
>>    From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>>    Date: Mon, 21 Mar 2005 19:44:37 +0100
>> 
>>    ! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in many languages)
>>    ! 			for using Emacs efficiently.
>> 
>> how about:
>> 
>> Emacs Tutorial: bg, cn, cs, de, en, es, fr, it, ja, ko, nl, pl, pt_BR,
>>                 ro, ru, sk, sl, sv, th, zh
>
> How about simply
>
>   Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in your language)

I am afraid that it would be hyperbole to quite a few people.  We
don't have every language of the world covered.  But when in doubt, we
indeed can just cut out the "for using Emcas efficiently" to save a
line.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: ttn@glug.org,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:18:44 +0100
> 
> >   Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in your language)
> 
> I am afraid that it would be hyperbole to quite a few people.  We
> don't have every language of the world covered.

For those language that don't have a tutorial translation yet, we
should omit the "in your language" part.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Cc: ttn@glug.org,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 11:18:44 +0100
>> 
>> >   Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in your language)
>> 
>> I am afraid that it would be hyperbole to quite a few people.  We
>> don't have every language of the world covered.
>
> For those language that don't have a tutorial translation yet, we
> should omit the "in your language" part.

If we check for the locale in the first place, then we can cast at
least that line into the proper local language.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    Emacs Tutorial: bg, cn, cs, de, en, es, fr, it, ja, ko, nl, pl, pt_BR,
		    ro, ru, sk, sl, sv, th, zh

If you send a patch that does this automatically, so it won't need
maintenance, we can consider it.

The idea of using national flags is cute but I think it is not useful.
I don't want to include those flags in Emacs.  Please, everyone, don't
spend any further time discussing flags.

Using the name of the language, in English and in that language with
its usual script, is the best way to show which language it is.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
   Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2005 15:44:55 -0500

   If you send a patch that does this automatically, so it won't need
   maintenance, we can consider it.

such a patch is appended.  it falls back to the original message if
`data-directory' is nil for some reason.  i took the liberty of using
`:weight bold' since these glyphs may be the few recognizable ones for
someone completely unfamiliar w/ english.  i have in mind that a local
expert can at a minimum say "click on XY" (when clickability is added).

my only doubt is that backtick may not be a good idea for dumped data.

thi


_____________________________________________
cvs -f diff -c startup.el
Index: startup.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
retrieving revision 1.340
diff -c -r1.340 startup.el
*** startup.el	6 Mar 2005 00:48:45 -0000	1.340
--- startup.el	22 Mar 2005 22:11:17 -0000
***************
*** 999,1012 ****
  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
  
  (defvar fancy-splash-text
!   '((:face variable-pitch
  	   "You can do basic editing with the menu bar and scroll bar \
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
  	   :face variable-pitch "\
! Emacs Tutorial\tLearn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently
! Emacs FAQ\tFrequently asked questions and answers
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
  	   :face (variable-pitch :slant oblique)
--- 999,1028 ----
  ;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
  
  (defvar fancy-splash-text
!   `((:face variable-pitch
  	   "You can do basic editing with the menu bar and scroll bar \
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
  	   :face variable-pitch "\
! Emacs Tutorial\t"
!            :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
!            ,(if (not data-directory)
!                 "Learn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently."
!               (let (langs s len (break 0))
!                 (dolist (filename (directory-files data-directory))
!                   (when (string-match "TUTORIAL.\\([a-z][a-z]\\(_[A-Z]+\\)*$\\)"
!                                       filename)
!                     (push (match-string 1 filename) langs)))
!                 (setq s (mapconcat 'identity (sort (cons "en" langs) 'string<)
!                                    ", ")
!                       len (length s))
!                 (while (and (< (setq break (+ 50 break)) len)
!                             (setq break (string-match ", " s break)))
!                   (aset s break ?\n)
!                   (aset s (1+ break) ?\t))
!                 s))
!            :face variable-pitch "\n\
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
  	   :face (variable-pitch :slant oblique)

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

Having the list of languages is good, but I think we also need to
include a message in the user's language (as derived from the current
locale), as others have suggested.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

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Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> Having the list of languages is good, but I think we also need to
> include a message in the user's language (as derived from the current
> locale), as others have suggested.

Below is an alist of locales and tutorial titles extracted from first lines
of etc/TUTORIAL* files to put onto the link to the corresponding tutorial
depending on the current locale:

'((nil     . "Emacs tutorial")
  ("bg"    . "въведението на Емакс")
  ("cn"    . "Emacs 快速指南")
  ("cs"    . "tutoriál k Emacsu")
  ("de"    . "Einführung in Emacs")
  ("es"    . "tutorial de Emacs")
  ("fr"    . "Didacticiel d'Emacs")
  ("it"    . "Esercitazione di Emacs")
  ("ja"    . "Emacs 入門ガイドです")
  ("ko"    . "이맥스(Emacs) 지침서입니다")
  ("nl"    . "Emacs-inleiding")
  ("pl"    . "krótki samouczek Emacsa")
  ("pt_BR" . "tutorial do Emacs")
  ("ro"    . "tutorialului de Emacs")
  ("ru"    . "учебник Emacs")
  ("sk"    . "tútorial k Emacsu")
  ("sl"    . "Prvo berilo za Emacs")
  ("sv"    . "användarhandledningen till Emacs")
  ("th"    . "ท่านกำลังศึกษาคู่มือการใช้อีแมกส์")
  ("zh"    . "Emacs 快速指南"))

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

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Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Werner LEMBERG]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: Text/Plain, Size: 685 bytes --]

[CVS 2005-03-01]

> Below is an alist of locales and tutorial titles [...]
>
>   ("th"    . "ท่านกำลังศึกษาคู่มือการใช้อีแมกส์")

For this Thai text string (in UTF-8 encoding) I just get boxes.  Doing
`C-u C-x =' I see that the characters are taken from the
`mule-unicode-0100-24ff' charset; the font I use for it
(-Efont-Biwidth-Medium-R-Normal--24-240-75-75-P-120-ISO10646-1)
doesn't have them.  On the other hand, TIS-620 encoding displays just
fine.  How can I make Emacs use my TIS-620 font for Thai characters if
the encoding is UTF-8?  Neither emacs.info nor elisp.info give a clue.


    Werner

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Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <20050323.190146.104245427.wl@gnu.org>, Werner LEMBERG <wl@gnu.org> writes:
> For this Thai text string (in UTF-8 encoding) I just get boxes.  Doing
> `C-u C-x =' I see that the characters are taken from the
> `mule-unicode-0100-24ff' charset; the font I use for it
> (-Efont-Biwidth-Medium-R-Normal--24-240-75-75-P-120-ISO10646-1)
> doesn't have them.  On the other hand, TIS-620 encoding displays just
> fine.  How can I make Emacs use my TIS-620 font for Thai characters if
> the encoding is UTF-8?  Neither emacs.info nor elisp.info give a clue.

Emacs is still not that good at handling Unicode characters.
It is better to use/recommend the charset thai-tis620 for
Thai characters for the moment.

It's possible to display Thai characters in
mule-unicode-0100-24ff by TIS-620 font by the attached code.
But, I don't want to commit such an adhoc code at this
moment.

(define-translation-table 'thai-tis620-encode-table
  ucs-thai-tis620-encode-table)

(define-ccl-program ccl-encode-tis620-font
  '(0
    ((if (r2 > 0)
	 ((r1 = ((r1 << 7) | r2))
	  (r2 = 0)
	  (translate-character thai-tis620-encode-table r0 r1)))
     (r1 |= #x80)))
  "CCL program to encode Thai characters to TIS620 font.")

(add-to-list 'font-ccl-encoder-alist '("tis620" . ccl-encode-tis620-font))

(set-fontset-font
 "fontset-default"
 (cons (decode-char 'ucs #x0E00)
       (decode-char 'ucs #x0E7F))
 '(nil . "tis620"))

Another way is to use setup utf-fragmentation-table property
and set utf-fragment-on-decoding to t so that Emacs decodes
Thai characters in utf-8 not to mule-unicode-0100-24ff but
to thai-tis620.  But, that is also fairly an adhoc way.

---
Ken'ichi HANDA
handa@m17n.org

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    Below is an alist of locales and tutorial titles extracted from first lines
    of etc/TUTORIAL* files to put onto the link to the corresponding tutorial
    depending on the current locale:

If we use that alist, we will have to maintain it every time
we add a new tutorial file.

So how about adopting a convention for these files so that Emacs could
automatically extract the string from the tutorial and show it?
We would have to modify the existing tutorial files, but afterwards
it would be easier to remember to do this in new tutorial files
than to remember to update the alist.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    ! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial (in many languages)
    ! 			for using Emacs efficiently.

Plesae make the change.  But I suggest

    ! Emacs Tutorial		Learn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently.
    !				  The Tutorial is available in several languages.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
   Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2005 15:25:54 -0500

   So how about adopting a convention [...]

three approaches come to mind:

(a) title on first line in file, ending w/ fullstop (period);

(b) a local variable "title-range" specifies the beginning and end
    character positions of the title in the text;

(c) separate file TUTORIAL.metainfo that maps locale to various
    things, such as the info in (b), coding system for read, a
    bug-report or support-group email address, etc.

of these, i favor (c), even though it has similar maintenance
requirement as the alist, because the file has the advantage of
being more efficient to access, and its format is extensible.
(we can also subsume TUTORIAL.translators into it.)

next, (b) is nice because the existing flow does not have to be
changed.  however, the full file needs to be read in, or at least
enough so that its title is present and its coding can be
established.

lastly, (a) is straightforward (less prone to botch-ups).  i do
not like it for esthetic reasons only.  same thinking applies for
any fixed-position approach.

thi

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Thu, 24 Mar 2005 11:49:55 +0100, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> wrote:
> three approaches come to mind:
> 
> (a) title on first line in file, ending w/ fullstop (period);
...
> lastly, (a) is straightforward (less prone to botch-ups).  i do
> not like it for esthetic reasons only.  same thinking applies for
> any fixed-position approach.

I'm confused as to why you don't like (a)...

The current tutorial files don't have a title at all, they start with
a chatty sentence saying "This is the super friendly Emacs tutorial!"

I think it would be quite nice to just add a real title before that,
and use that for the description string; it wouldn't have the
maintenance problems (or the "adding yet more reams of cruft to etc"
problem) of the other approaches.

E.g, change them to start something like:

                     Emacs Tutorial

    This is the super friendly Emacs Tutorial!
     ....etc....

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

None of those three approaches is necessary.  The file already
includes the text we want.  We just need to do something to indicate
which part is the text we want.

It looks like most tutorials have the desired text as the first
sentence.  We could make that a general rule: every tutorial
translation must start with a sentence that translates "Emacs
tutorial".

Does anyone see a problem with that?

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
   Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 04:05:30 +0900

   I'm confused as to why you don't like (a)...

i empathize w/ the authors of the tutorials who may not
wish to change their text.  there are enough rules and
regulations in the world (especially when you translate
your thoughts into software) that i am inclined to favor
approaches that extend the methods for collecting and
accessing metadata (i.e., learning to be more descriptive)
more than approaches that involve forcing conformity,
especially when it comes to codified thought other than
that which must be understood by the stupid computer.

whether or not the required change is a big deal in practice
is another matter entirely.  as is anything "in practice".
perhaps i'm weird (ok, i know i'm weird), but i would not
wish to put creative energy into a Work and then be told
post-facto that the effort must be redone due to limitations
in the audience.  i feel such a request shows disrespect.

thi

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    i empathize w/ the authors of the tutorials who may not
    wish to change their text.

This is a small change in the packaging of *translations* of a part of
Emacs, which are also meant ascontributions to Emacs.  If some
translator gets worked up about it, that is not our problem.

Unless there is a practical problem with the solution I've proposed,
that's what we will use.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

>     i empathize w/ the authors of the tutorials who may not
>     wish to change their text.
>
> This is a small change in the packaging of *translations* of a part of
> Emacs, which are also meant ascontributions to Emacs.  If some
> translator gets worked up about it, that is not our problem.
>
> Unless there is a practical problem with the solution I've proposed,
> that's what we will use.

Different languages have different conventions for document titles:
some require to upper-case all letters, some - to capitalize all words,
others - to capitalize only the first word ("EMACS TUTORIAL",
"Emacs Tutorial", "Emacs tutorial"), different conventions for
centering the title, etc.  This can't be done without the help of
translators of the Emacs tutorial.  But it makes no sense to bother
them now for such a small change.  What is more useful is to provide
complete internationalization of Emacs after the next release (there
is already an entry in etc/TODO) for Emacs 23 (Unicode-2) and to ask
translation teams to translate menus, messages as well as the
splash screen.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    Different languages have different conventions for document titles:
    some require to upper-case all letters, some - to capitalize all words,
    others - to capitalize only the first word ("EMACS TUTORIAL",
    "Emacs Tutorial", "Emacs tutorial"), different conventions for
    centering the title, etc.

It is just a detail.  Let's add the feature now, and these details can
get cleaned up later.

      But it makes no sense to bother
    them now for such a small change.

If this isn't important enough to be worth asking them to change now,
it isn't important enough to delay anything else.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
   Date: Mon, 28 Mar 2005 17:53:33 -0500

   Let's add the feature now

ok, please find below a patch for startup.el and help-fns.el, as
well as each TUTORIAL file.  the title line was taken from the
text of the tutorial file instead of from the email, in case there
were changes during transport that i may be incapable of noticing.

i have lightly tested with language environments: Latin-1, English,
Thai, Ethiopic, Russian, Italian, Chinese-GB, Czech, and others i
cannot remember at the moment.

this patch does not add clickability; that's something i'll gladly
leave for someone else to add.  (i don't have a mouse to test it.)

the change to `help-with-tutorial' in help-fns.el is to provide
continuity in user experience from older versions of emacs, which
saves local wizards a bit of extra explaining (a Good Thing).

thi

_____________________________________________________________________
cvs -f diff -c lisp/startup.el lisp/help-fns.el etc/TUTORIAL*
Index: lisp/startup.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
retrieving revision 1.340
diff -c -r1.340 startup.el
*** lisp/startup.el	6 Mar 2005 00:48:45 -0000	1.340
--- lisp/startup.el	29 Mar 2005 19:52:28 -0000
***************
*** 1004,1012 ****
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
! 	   :face variable-pitch "\
! Emacs Tutorial\tLearn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently
! Emacs FAQ\tFrequently asked questions and answers
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
  	   :face (variable-pitch :slant oblique)
--- 1004,1045 ----
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
! 	   :face variable-pitch
!            (lambda ()
!              (concat
!               (let ((tut (expand-file-name
!                           (or (get-language-info current-language-environment
!                                                  'tutorial)
!                               "TUTORIAL")
!                           data-directory)))
!                 (with-temp-buffer
!                   (insert-file-contents tut nil 0 80)
!                   (buffer-substring (point-min) (progn (end-of-line) (point)))))
!               "\t"))
!            :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
!            (lambda ()
!              (if (not data-directory)
!                  "Learn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently."
!                (let* ((tut (get-language-info current-language-environment
!                                               'tutorial))
!                       (en-prefix (if (or (not tut) (string= "TUTORIAL" tut))
!                                      ""
!                                    "(Emacs Tutorial) "))
!                       (break (- (length en-prefix)))
!                       langs s len)
!                  (dolist (filename (directory-files data-directory))
!                    (when (string-match "TUTORIAL.\\([a-z][a-z]\\(_[A-Z]+\\)*$\\)"
!                                        filename)
!                      (push (match-string 1 filename) langs)))
!                  (setq s (mapconcat 'identity (sort (cons "en" langs) 'string<)
!                                     ", ")
!                        len (length s))
!                  (while (and (< (setq break (+ 50 break)) len)
!                              (setq break (string-match ", " s break)))
!                    (aset s break ?\n)
!                    (aset s (1+ break) ?\t))
!                  (concat en-prefix s "\n"))))
!            :face variable-pitch "\
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
  	   :face (variable-pitch :slant oblique)
***************
*** 1069,1082 ****
  
  (defun fancy-splash-insert (&rest args)
    "Insert text into the current buffer, with faces.
! Arguments from ARGS should be either strings or pairs `:face FACE',
  where FACE is a valid face specification, as it can be used with
  `put-text-properties'."
    (let ((current-face nil))
      (while args
        (if (eq (car args) :face)
  	  (setq args (cdr args) current-face (car args))
! 	(insert (propertize (car args)
  			    'face current-face
  			    'help-echo fancy-splash-help-echo)))
        (setq args (cdr args)))))
--- 1102,1119 ----
  
  (defun fancy-splash-insert (&rest args)
    "Insert text into the current buffer, with faces.
! Arguments from ARGS should be either strings, functions called
! with no args that return a string, or pairs `:face FACE',
  where FACE is a valid face specification, as it can be used with
  `put-text-properties'."
    (let ((current-face nil))
      (while args
        (if (eq (car args) :face)
  	  (setq args (cdr args) current-face (car args))
! 	(insert (propertize (let ((it (car args)))
!                               (if (functionp it)
!                                   (funcall it)
!                                 it))
  			    'face current-face
  			    'help-echo fancy-splash-help-echo)))
        (setq args (cdr args)))))
Index: lisp/help-fns.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/lisp/help-fns.el,v
retrieving revision 1.64
diff -c -r1.64 help-fns.el
*** lisp/help-fns.el	3 Feb 2005 19:41:14 -0000	1.64
--- lisp/help-fns.el	29 Mar 2005 19:52:29 -0000
***************
*** 65,70 ****
--- 65,72 ----
        (insert-file-contents (expand-file-name filename data-directory))
        (hack-local-variables)
        (goto-char (point-min))
+       ;; The first line conventionally contains the title.
+       (delete-region (point) (progn (forward-line 1) (point)))
        (search-forward "\n<<")
        (beginning-of-line)
        ;; Convert the <<...>> line to the proper [...] line,
Index: etc/TUTORIAL
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL,v
retrieving revision 1.59
diff -c -r1.59 TUTORIAL
*** etc/TUTORIAL	8 Feb 2005 14:20:01 -0000	1.59
--- etc/TUTORIAL	29 Mar 2005 19:52:33 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Emacs Tutorial
  You are looking at the Emacs tutorial.  See end for copying conditions.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2005 Free Software Foundation.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.bg
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.bg,v
retrieving revision 1.3
diff -c -r1.3 TUTORIAL.bg
*** etc/TUTORIAL.bg	29 Dec 2003 12:49:21 -0000	1.3
--- etc/TUTORIAL.bg	29 Mar 2005 19:52:33 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ âúâåäåíèåòî íà Åìàêñ
  Âèå ãëåäàòå âúâåäåíèåòî íà Åìàêñ.  Óñëîâèÿòà çà êîïèðàíå ñà â êðàÿ íà òåêñòà.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002, 2003 Free Software Foundation.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.cn
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.cn,v
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -c -r1.4 TUTORIAL.cn
*** etc/TUTORIAL.cn	1 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0000	1.4
--- etc/TUTORIAL.cn	29 Mar 2005 19:52:33 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Emacs ¿ìËÙÖ¸ÄÏ
  ÄúÕýÔÚÔĶÁ Emacs ¿ìËÙÖ¸ÄÏ£¨ Emacs tutorial £©¡£Çë¼ûҳβÓйظ´ÖÆÌõ¼þ¡£
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002 Free Software Foundation.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.cs
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.cs,v
retrieving revision 1.9
diff -c -r1.9 TUTORIAL.cs
*** etc/TUTORIAL.cs	1 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0000	1.9
--- etc/TUTORIAL.cs	29 Mar 2005 19:52:33 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ tutoriál k Emacsu
  Copyright (c) 1985 Free Software Foundation, Inc;  podmínky viz na konci.
  Do èe¹tiny pøelo¾il Milan Zamazal <pdm@zamazal.org>.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.de
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.de,v
retrieving revision 1.9
diff -c -r1.9 TUTORIAL.de
*** etc/TUTORIAL.de	29 Sep 2003 22:56:46 -0000	1.9
--- etc/TUTORIAL.de	29 Mar 2005 19:52:33 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Einführung in Emacs
  Einführung in Emacs.  (c) 2002, 2003 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  
  Emacs-Befehle beinhalten im allgemeinen die CONTROL-Taste (manchmal
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.es
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.es,v
retrieving revision 1.9
diff -c -r1.9 TUTORIAL.es
*** etc/TUTORIAL.es	14 Aug 2004 12:01:01 -0000	1.9
--- etc/TUTORIAL.es	29 Mar 2005 19:52:34 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ tutorial de Emacs
  Usted esta viendo el tutorial de Emacs. Vea al final las condiciones
  de copiado. Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002 Free Software
  Foundation.
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.fr
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.fr,v
retrieving revision 1.11
diff -c -r1.11 TUTORIAL.fr
*** etc/TUTORIAL.fr	8 Oct 2004 18:10:51 -0000	1.11
--- etc/TUTORIAL.fr	29 Mar 2005 19:52:34 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Didacticiel d'Emacs
  Didacticiel d'Emacs.  Voir la fin de ce document pour les conditions.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 2001, 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.it
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.it,v
retrieving revision 1.3
diff -c -r1.3 TUTORIAL.it
*** etc/TUTORIAL.it	17 Apr 2004 22:54:09 -0000	1.3
--- etc/TUTORIAL.it	29 Mar 2005 19:52:34 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Esercitazione di Emacs
  Esercitazione di Emacs.  Copyright (c) 2003 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  Condizioni d'uso alla fine del file.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.ja
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.ja,v
retrieving revision 1.8
diff -c -r1.8 TUTORIAL.ja
*** etc/TUTORIAL.ja	1 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0000	1.8
--- etc/TUTORIAL.ja	29 Mar 2005 19:52:35 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Emacs ^[$BF~Lg%,%$%I$G$9^[(B
  ^[$B$"$J$?$,8=:_8+$F$$$k$N$O^[(B Emacs ^[$BF~Lg%,%$%I$G$9!#%U%!%$%k:G8e$r;2>H$N$3$H!#^[(B
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002 Free Software Foundation.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.ko
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.ko,v
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -c -r1.4 TUTORIAL.ko
*** etc/TUTORIAL.ko	1 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0000	1.4
--- etc/TUTORIAL.ko	29 Mar 2005 19:52:36 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ ^[$(C@L8F=:^[(B(Emacs) ^[$(CAvD'<-@T4O4Y^[(B
  ^[$(C@z@[1G^[(B (c) 1985, 2001 Free Software Foundation, Inc;  ^[$(C3!?!4B^[(B ^[$(C:9;g^[(B ^[$(CA60G@L^[(B
  ^[$(C@V=@4O4Y^[(B.  ^[$(CAv1]^[(B ^[$(C@P0m^[(B ^[$(C@V4B^[(B ^[$(C@L^[(B ^[$(C1[@:^[(B ^[$(C@L8F=:^[(B(Emacs) ^[$(CAvD'<-@T4O4Y^[(B.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.nl
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.nl,v
retrieving revision 1.11
diff -c -r1.11 TUTORIAL.nl
*** etc/TUTORIAL.nl	14 Feb 2005 10:46:16 -0000	1.11
--- etc/TUTORIAL.nl	29 Mar 2005 19:52:36 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Emacs-inleiding
  Je leest nu de Emacs-inleiding.  De kopieervoorwaarden staan onderaan.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1997, 2003, 2004, 2005 Free Software Foundation
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.pl
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.pl,v
retrieving revision 1.7
diff -c -r1.7 TUTORIAL.pl
*** etc/TUTORIAL.pl	17 Apr 2004 23:08:01 -0000	1.7
--- etc/TUTORIAL.pl	29 Mar 2005 19:52:37 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ krótki samouczek Emacsa
  Czytasz w³a¶nie krótki samouczek Emacsa. Copyright (c) 1985, 2001
  Free Software Foundation, Inc. Szczegó³y na koñcu pliku.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR,v
retrieving revision 1.3
diff -c -r1.3 TUTORIAL.pt_BR
*** etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR	16 May 2004 06:33:00 -0000	1.3
--- etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR	29 Mar 2005 19:52:37 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ tutorial do Emacs
  Copyright (c) 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc;  Veja no fim as
  condições.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.ro
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.ro,v
retrieving revision 1.3
diff -c -r1.3 TUTORIAL.ro
*** etc/TUTORIAL.ro	1 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0000	1.3
--- etc/TUTORIAL.ro	29 Mar 2005 19:52:38 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ tutorialului de Emacs
  Copyright (c) 1998 Free Software Foundation  -*-coding: latin-2;-*-
  Traducere din englezã de Tudor Hulubei <tudor@gnu.org>.
  Mulþumiri Aidei Hulubei <aida@chang.pub.ro> pentru corecturi ºi sugestii.
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.ru
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.ru,v
retrieving revision 1.7
diff -c -r1.7 TUTORIAL.ru
*** etc/TUTORIAL.ru	17 Apr 2004 22:40:52 -0000	1.7
--- etc/TUTORIAL.ru	29 Mar 2005 19:52:39 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ ÕÞÅÂÎÉË Emacs
  ÷Ù ÞÉÔÁÅÔÅ ÕÞÅÂÎÉË Emacs.  õÓÌÏ×ÉÑ ËÏÐÉÒÏ×ÁÎÉÑ × ËÏÎÃÅ ÆÁÊÌÁ.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.sk
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.sk,v
retrieving revision 1.8
diff -c -r1.8 TUTORIAL.sk
*** etc/TUTORIAL.sk	1 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0000	1.8
--- etc/TUTORIAL.sk	29 Mar 2005 19:52:40 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ tútorial k Emacsu
  Copyright (c) 1985 Free Software Foundation, Inc; podmienky pozri na konci.
  Do èe¹tiny prelo¾il Milan Zamazal <pdm@zamazal.org>, do slovenèiny Miroslav
  Va¹ko <zemiak@zoznam.sk>.
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.sl
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.sl,v
retrieving revision 1.7
diff -c -r1.7 TUTORIAL.sl
*** etc/TUTORIAL.sl	17 Apr 2004 23:09:47 -0000	1.7
--- etc/TUTORIAL.sl	29 Mar 2005 19:52:40 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Prvo berilo za Emacs
  Prvo berilo za Emacs. Pogoji uporabe in raz¹irjanja so navedeni na koncu.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1997, 2001, 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
  
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.sv
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.sv,v
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -c -r1.4 TUTORIAL.sv
*** etc/TUTORIAL.sv	17 Apr 2004 23:11:22 -0000	1.4
--- etc/TUTORIAL.sv	29 Mar 2005 19:52:40 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ användarhandledningen till Emacs
  Detta är den Svenska användarhandledningen till Emacs. I slutet finns
  kopieringsvillkoren. Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002 Free
  Software Foundation, Inc.
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.th
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.th,v
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -c -r1.4 TUTORIAL.th
*** etc/TUTORIAL.th	17 Apr 2004 23:15:16 -0000	1.4
--- etc/TUTORIAL.th	29 Mar 2005 19:52:41 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ ^[0^[,T7h^[1R9!S^[0EQ^[1'^[0HV^[1!IR^[0$Yh^[1^[0AW^[1M!RCc^[0*i^[1^[0MU^[1aA!^[0Jl^[1^[(B
  ^[,TJ'G9^[0ET^[1"^[0JT^[17^[08Tl^[1^[(B ^[,T>^[(B.^[,TH^[(B. 2528 ^[,Tb4B:^[0CT^[1^[0IQ^[17?^[0CU^[1+M?^[05l^[1aG^[0Cl^[1?RG^[09l^[1`4^[0*Q^[19^[(B (Free Software
  Foundation, Inc); ^[,T!^[0CX^[13R^[0HV^[1!IR`^[0'Wh^[1M9d"5M9^[07i^[1RB:7^[(B.
  ^[0^[,T7h^[1R9!S^[0EQ^[1'^[0HV^[1!IR^[0$Yh^[1^[0AW^[1M!RCc^[0*i^[1^[0MU^[1aA!^[0Jl^[1^[(B (Emacs tutorial) ^[,TM^[0BYh^[1c9"3P^[09Ui^[1^[(B.
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.zh
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.zh,v
retrieving revision 1.4
diff -c -r1.4 TUTORIAL.zh
*** etc/TUTORIAL.zh	1 Sep 2003 15:44:59 -0000	1.4
--- etc/TUTORIAL.zh	29 Mar 2005 19:52:42 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Emacs §Ö³t«ü«n¡]
  ±z¥¿¦b¾\Ū Emacs §Ö³t«ü«n¡] Emacs tutorial ¡^¡C½Ð¨£­¶§À¦³Ãö½Æ»s±ø¥ó¡C
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002 Free Software Foundation.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Marcelo Toledo]

Looks good for me. I had a little problem when the patch reached
TUTORIAL.th and .zh, but it doesn't matter if the line is there.

Would be intersting if all translators could take a look at the first
line too see if it's fine. I've created an email to all of them asking
for it and I will send as soon as it gets commited.

In the TUTORIAL.pt_BR the first letter must be in upper case:

Index: etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR,v
retrieving revision 1.3
diff -c -r1.3 TUTORIAL.pt_BR
*** etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR	16 May 2004 06:33:00 -0000	1.3
--- etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR	29 Mar 2005 19:52:37 -0000
***************
*** 1,3 ****
--- 1,4 ----
+ Tutorial do Emacs
  Copyright (c) 2004 Free Software Foundation, Inc;  Veja no fim as
  condições.

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> writes:

> ok, please find below a patch for startup.el and help-fns.el, as
> well as each TUTORIAL file.  the title line was taken from the
> text of the tutorial file instead of from the email, in case there
> were changes during transport that i may be incapable of noticing.

-- 
Marcelo Toledo
marcelo@marcelotoledo.org
http://www.marcelotoledo.org
Mobile: 55 71 9116-1101

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 749 bytes --]

   From: Marcelo Toledo <marcelo@marcelotoledo.org>
   Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2005 01:08:32 -0300

   Looks good for me. I had a little problem when the patch
   reached TUTORIAL.th and .zh, but it doesn't matter if the line
   is there.

   Would be intersting if all translators could take a look at the
   first line too see if it's fine. I've created an email to all
   of them asking for it and I will send as soon as it gets
   commited.

i have regenerated the patch and gzipped it to avoid transmission
problems.  it is appended as well as posted (temporarily) at:

http://www.glug.org/tmp/emacs/tut.diff.gz

you might as well request review before the commit; there is no
inherent dependency between these activities wrt the first lines.

thi



[-- Attachment #2: tut.diff.gz --]
[-- Type: application/x-gunzip, Size: 3830 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 142 bytes --]

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Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
   Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:43:07 -0500

   We could make that a general rule: every tutorial translation must
   start with a sentence that translates "Emacs tutorial".

sorry, i misunderstood this simple sentence and implemented the wrong
thing (gotta slow down sometimes and be more careful).  please find
below a revised patch that uses the first sentence of the file as the
text for the splash screen.  unfortunately, i prematurely committed
changes to the actual TUTORIAL files due to concerns that translators
might not see the proposed changes.  i think it's best that i stick w/
the code and let Marcelo and others handle updates to those files. :-(

thi


_____________________________________________
cvs -f diff -c startup.el
diff -c -r1.340 startup.el
*** startup.el	6 Mar 2005 00:48:45 -0000	1.340
--- startup.el	30 Mar 2005 22:33:59 -0000
***************
*** 1004,1012 ****
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
! 	   :face variable-pitch "\
! Emacs Tutorial\tLearn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently
! Emacs FAQ\tFrequently asked questions and answers
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
  	   :face (variable-pitch :slant oblique)
--- 1004,1046 ----
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
! 	   :face variable-pitch
!            (lambda ()
!              (concat
!               (let ((tut (expand-file-name
!                           (or (get-language-info current-language-environment
!                                                  'tutorial)
!                               "TUTORIAL")
!                           data-directory)))
!                 (with-temp-buffer
!                   (insert-file-contents tut nil 0 80)
!                   (search-forward ".")
!                   (buffer-substring (point-min) (point))))
!               "\t"))
!            :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
!            (lambda ()
!              (if (not data-directory)
!                  "Learn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently."
!                (let* ((tut (get-language-info current-language-environment
!                                               'tutorial))
!                       (en-prefix (if (or (not tut) (string= "TUTORIAL" tut))
!                                      ""
!                                    "(Emacs Tutorial) "))
!                       (break (- (length en-prefix)))
!                       langs s len)
!                  (dolist (filename (directory-files data-directory))
!                    (when (string-match "TUTORIAL.\\([a-z][a-z]\\(_[A-Z]+\\)*$\\)"
!                                        filename)
!                      (push (match-string 1 filename) langs)))
!                  (setq s (mapconcat 'identity (sort (cons "en" langs) 'string<)
!                                     ", ")
!                        len (length s))
!                  (while (and (< (setq break (+ 50 break)) len)
!                              (setq break (string-match ", " s break)))
!                    (aset s break ?\n)
!                    (aset s (1+ break) ?\t))
!                  (concat en-prefix s "\n"))))
!            :face variable-pitch "\
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
  	   :face (variable-pitch :slant oblique)
***************
*** 1069,1082 ****
  
  (defun fancy-splash-insert (&rest args)
    "Insert text into the current buffer, with faces.
! Arguments from ARGS should be either strings or pairs `:face FACE',
  where FACE is a valid face specification, as it can be used with
  `put-text-properties'."
    (let ((current-face nil))
      (while args
        (if (eq (car args) :face)
  	  (setq args (cdr args) current-face (car args))
! 	(insert (propertize (car args)
  			    'face current-face
  			    'help-echo fancy-splash-help-echo)))
        (setq args (cdr args)))))
--- 1103,1120 ----
  
  (defun fancy-splash-insert (&rest args)
    "Insert text into the current buffer, with faces.
! Arguments from ARGS should be either strings, functions called
! with no args that return a string, or pairs `:face FACE',
  where FACE is a valid face specification, as it can be used with
  `put-text-properties'."
    (let ((current-face nil))
      (while args
        (if (eq (car args) :face)
  	  (setq args (cdr args) current-face (car args))
! 	(insert (propertize (let ((it (car args)))
!                               (if (functionp it)
!                                   (funcall it)
!                                 it))
  			    'face current-face
  			    'help-echo fancy-splash-help-echo)))
        (setq args (cdr args)))))

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> writes:

>    From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
>    Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2005 01:43:07 -0500
>
>    We could make that a general rule: every tutorial translation must
>    start with a sentence that translates "Emacs tutorial".
>
> sorry, i misunderstood this simple sentence and implemented the
> wrong thing (gotta slow down sometimes and be more careful).  please
> find below a revised patch that uses the first sentence of the file
> as the text for the splash screen.  unfortunately, i prematurely
> committed changes to the actual TUTORIAL files due to concerns that
> translators might not see the proposed changes.  i think it's best
> that i stick w/ the code and let Marcelo and others handle updates
> to those files. :-(

HEAD is, after all, not promised to be "release-ready" branch: our
priorities of whether to check something in or not should mostly focus
on whether this achieves the goal of getting our development done
efficiently.  Since it is not overly efficient if people are kept from
working by bugs in areas where they are not proficient, one should be
careful about checking stuff in that will break functionality.

In the case of the tutorials, however, I should think by far the most
efficient way to get this done is by just checking in a first version
and let the respective speakers of the language then simply do the
corrections in HEAD.  If some intermediate tutorial version happens to
use bad words and grammar, this does not impede development at all.
Certainly takes less developer time than hand-applying and
corroborating patches.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    In the case of the tutorials, however, I should think by far the most
    efficient way to get this done is by just checking in a first version
    and let the respective speakers of the language then simply do the
    corrections in HEAD.  If some intermediate tutorial version happens to
    use bad words and grammar, this does not impede development at all.
    Certainly takes less developer time than hand-applying and
    corroborating patches.

I agree completely.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Mar 31, 2005 7:47 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> wrote:
> please find
> below a revised patch that uses the first sentence of the file as the
> text for the splash screen.  unfortunately, i prematurely committed
> changes to the actual TUTORIAL files due to concerns that translators
> might not see the proposed changes

So what exactly is that patch supposed to do?  It seems very complicated.

I'm not sure it's a good idea to take the description `first sentence
in the tutorial' literally; a sentence may not be the best unit to
use, as something that sounds natural when inserted into the splash
page may look odd as a standalone first sentence in the tutorial.

It seem better to do as I suggested earlier, and structure it more as
a  `title' in the actual tutorial file (that is, simply the words
"Emacs Tutorial" or equivalent, on a line by themselves, possibly
centered on the first line, followed by a blank line).  That will be
easier to extract from the file, and probably will look reasonable in
both contexts.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Marcelo Toledo]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> So what exactly is that patch supposed to do?  It seems very complicated.
>
> I'm not sure it's a good idea to take the description `first sentence
> in the tutorial' literally; a sentence may not be the best unit to
> use, as something that sounds natural when inserted into the splash
> page may look odd as a standalone first sentence in the tutorial.
>
> It seem better to do as I suggested earlier, and structure it more as
> a  `title' in the actual tutorial file (that is, simply the words
> "Emacs Tutorial" or equivalent, on a line by themselves, possibly
> centered on the first line, followed by a blank line).  That will be
> easier to extract from the file, and probably will look reasonable in
> both contexts.

That's what it does. Right now it's not centered and there is no blank
line after it. But I think it will look better if we make it, will look
like a title in the tutorial and will work in the splash screen. I think
Thien can take care of this change modifing the code to grab the phrase
in the _center_ (may vary from file to file) of the first line.

I am checking with the translators if those already commited are well
written. I will commit this change in the admin/FOR-RELEASE if no one
mind:

*** FOR-RELEASE.old     Wed Mar 30 21:20:14 2005
--- FOR-RELEASE Wed Mar 30 21:45:28 2005
***************
*** 245,250 ****
--- 245,282 ----
  lispref/variables.texi         "Luc Teirlinck"   Chong Yidong
  lispref/windows.texi     "Luc Teirlinck"   Chong Yidong

+ ** Check the Emacs Tutorial.
+
+ The first line of every tutorial must be "Emacs Tutorial" in the
+ repective language. It is used as a title in the tutorial and also used
+ in the splash screen. After each file name, on the same line or the
+ following line, come the names of the people who have checked it.
+
+ SECTION                  READERS
+ ----------------------------------
+ etc/TUTORIAL             Marcelo Toledo <marcelo@marcelotoledo.org>
+ etc/TUTORIAL.bg
+ etc/TUTORIAL.cn
+ etc/TUTORIAL.cs
+ etc/TUTORIAL.de
+ etc/TUTORIAL.es          Marcelo Toledo <marcelo@marcelotoledo.org>
+ etc/TUTORIAL.fr          Jaco <eric.jacoboni@gmail.com>
+ etc/TUTORIAL.it          Alfredo Finelli <alfredof@libero.it>
+ etc/TUTORIAL.ja
+ etc/TUTORIAL.ko
+ etc/TUTORIAL.nl
+ etc/TUTORIAL.pl
+ etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR       Marcelo Toledo <marcelo@marcelotoledo.org>
+ etc/TUTORIAL.ro
+ etc/TUTORIAL.ru
+ etc/TUTORIAL.sk
+ etc/TUTORIAL.sl
+ etc/TUTORIAL.sv
+ etc/TUTORIAL.th
+ etc/TUTORIAL.zh
+
+
+


  Local variables:
  mode: outline

-- 
Marcelo Toledo
marcelo@marcelotoledo.org
http://www.marcelotoledo.org
Mobile: 55 71 9116-1101

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Mar 31, 2005 10:02 AM, Marcelo Toledo <marcelo@marcelotoledo.org> wrote:
> > It seem better to do as I suggested earlier, and structure it more
> > as a  `title' in the actual tutorial file (that is, simply the words
> > "Emacs Tutorial" or equivalent, on a line by themselves
> 
> That's what it does.

It's not what it looks like it does.

E.g. the patch contains the following code:

!                 (with-temp-buffer
!                   (insert-file-contents tut nil 0 80)
!                   (search-forward ".")
!                   (buffer-substring (point-min) (point))))

Which seems to be searching for the end of a sentence (though this is
not a good way to do that -- it won't work with some languages), and
will in fact signal an error if there's no period in the first 80
characters.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Marcelo Toledo]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> It's not what it looks like it does.
>
> E.g. the patch contains the following code:
>
> !                 (with-temp-buffer
> !                   (insert-file-contents tut nil 0 80)
> !                   (search-forward ".")
> !                   (buffer-substring (point-min) (point))))
>
> Which seems to be searching for the end of a sentence (though this is
> not a good way to do that -- it won't work with some languages), and
> will in fact signal an error if there's no period in the first 80
> characters.

I haven't noted that he changed from the first version I checked:

!                 (with-temp-buffer
!                   (insert-file-contents tut nil 0 80)
!                   (buffer-substring (point-min) (progn (end-of-line) (point)))))

I agree with you:

* The first line must be used entirely for "Emacs Tutorial", no more no
  less.
* It will be centered, the position of where it is may and will vary
  from file to file.
* The code must strip whitespace from the beginning and end, and make
  sure in all cases it's getting only the title (Emacs Tutorial).
* Since only the first line is valuable for the code, it can be followed
  by an empty line (eye candy purposes).

-- 
Marcelo Toledo
marcelo@marcelotoledo.org
http://www.marcelotoledo.org
Mobile: 55 71 9116-1101

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

The text "Emacs Tutorial" on the splash screen should not be replaced
with a translation at all because it is the text of the menu item and
menu items under the Help menu are not translated.  The splash screen
says this explicitly:

  Important Help menu items:
            ===============
  Emacs Tutorial   Learn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently
  ==============
  Emacs FAQ        Frequently asked questions and answers
  ...

Until menu items get translated, the text of the menu item should
remain the same on the splash screen.

BTW, there is other incorrect menu item title on the splash screen:

  Useful File menu items:
  Exit Emacs        (Or type Control-x followed by Control-c)
  Recover Session   Recover files you were editing before a crash
  ===============

There is no such menu item.  The correct menu item title is
"Recover Crashed Session".

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

      unfortunately, i prematurely committed
    changes to the actual TUTORIAL files due to concerns that translators
    might not see the proposed changes.  

We must not wait for the individual translators to look at these
files.  That is difficult to manage, and unreliable.

					 i think it's best that i stick w/
    the code and let Marcelo and others handle updates to those files. :-(

I am not going to do it that way.  All the TUTORIAL files *must* be
changed at the same time the code is changed.  That is my decision.

I would much rather have you change all the files, and get 90% of them
right, than have you not change any files, and 90% will be wrong.

So the point is to change these files the right way.  Your new patch
looks for the data in the right way, so I think you understand what
change is right.  I just changed etc/TUTORIAL to follow the new
convention; that file now shows what the convention is.

I saw three kinds of cases in looking at these files.

* Files that already started with a translation of "Emacs tutorial"
  followed by a period.  They were already correct; the only change
  needed now is to delete the line you added.

* Files that had some longer sentence there.  The longer sentence
  needs to be shortened (and the spurious line should be removed).

* Just a few files did not start with such a sentence.  Those files
  need to be brought into conformity with the rest.

Please do this now.

As for the patch in the code, I think it has some problems.  The item
for the FAQ seems to be deleted; I don't think that's right.  It puts
in two different items for the TUTORIALs, but the second one is so
complex that I don't understand what job it does.

Please show us the intended output from the second item, the new one.

Please add more comments to both items so that it will be completely
clear what this code is doing.

That needs to be done in order for this patch to be installed.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
   Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 10:40:05 +0900

   So what exactly is that patch supposed to do?

here is a suitable ChangeLog entry:

	* startup.el (fancy-splash-text): For tutorial line, consult
	language environment and display accordingly, in format:
	TITLE, tab, EN-PREFIX*, LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS.
	(fancy-splash-insert): If arg is a thunk, call it for a string.

the asterisk after EN-PREFIX means that it may be omitted if there is no
need for it.  (arguably there is no need for it in any case.)

   I'm not sure it's a good idea to take the description `first sentence
   in the tutorial' literally; a sentence may not be the best unit to
   use, as something that sounds natural when inserted into the splash
   page may look odd as a standalone first sentence in the tutorial.

in this context, i interpret sentence as "text followed by period".
something like "Emacs Tutorial." (with period), in which case TITLE is
taken to be "Emacs Tutorial" (without the period).  thus, this is not a
"normal" sentence w/ verbs and other words.  the current standalone
first sentence is normal but will need to be changed (w/ the help of
translators) from:

BLAH BLAH BLAH.  ETC ETC

to the stylized:

TITLE.  BLAH BLAH BLAH.  ETC ETC.

translators are encouraged to reduce awkwardness (w/ the advent of
TITLE) in the BLAH part, perhaps by reworking or eliminating it
entirely.

   It seem better to do as I suggested earlier, and structure it more as
   a `title' in the actual tutorial file (that is, simply the words
   "Emacs Tutorial" or equivalent, on a line by themselves, possibly
   centered on the first line, followed by a blank line).

this is the same as rms' design, except that TITLE is delimited by first
newline instead of first period.  initially, i thought newline delim was
better since it could be added simply (w/o changing current text) and,
just as simply, be removed upon presentation.  however, i suppose that
violates the "one source for data" principle, so i can see value in
using period delim and reworking the BLAH part.

thi

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Mar 31, 2005 8:37 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> wrote:
>    It seem better to do as I suggested earlier, and structure it more as
>    a `title' in the actual tutorial file (that is, simply the words
>    "Emacs Tutorial" or equivalent, on a line by themselves, possibly
>    centered on the first line, followed by a blank line).
> 
> this is the same as rms' design, except that TITLE is delimited by first
> newline instead of first period.

Rms can obviously correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're taking
his words much too literally; using a period is much more clumsy[*]
than simply using a separate line and calling it a "title" in the
text.

[*] and wrong in some languages; using sentence movement operators
would be better

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
   Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:05:46 +0900

   his words much too literally

perhaps it is better to call this region of characters "text before
first DELIM, where DELIM is period" instead of "sentence".

thi

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Mar 31, 2005 10:32 PM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> wrote:
>    From: Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
>    Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 21:05:46 +0900
> 
>    his words much too literally
> 
> perhaps it is better to call this region of characters "text before
> first DELIM, where DELIM is period" instead of "sentence".

Why?  It's still just as clunky no matter what you call it.  A period
(or whatever) is a pointlessly awkward delimiter.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com>
   Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:29:04 +0900

   Why?  It's still just as clunky no matter what you call it.
   A period (or whatever) is a pointlessly awkward delimiter.

whether or not it is clunky, the longer phrase is more accurate
in describing the algorithm (and its one parameter) desired.  i
understand this is not your favorite approach and am tickled by
the concept of a pointless period.  "it's a full stop, full of
nothing!"

thi

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Miles Bader]

On Apr 1, 2005 1:15 AM, Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> wrote:
>    Why?  It's still just as clunky no matter what you call it.
>    A period (or whatever) is a pointlessly awkward delimiter.
> 
> whether or not it is clunky, the longer phrase is more accurate
> in describing the algorithm (and its one parameter) desired.

Instead of contorting the description, why not just use
`forward-sentence', which will handle more languages correctly than a
simple search for a period?  [Perhaps binding
`sentence-end-double-space' to nil to be more forgiving.]

> I am tickled by the concept of a pointless period.

No doubt.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    Rms can obviously correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're taking
    his words much too literally; using a period is much more clumsy[*]

You are not taking them literally enough.  I made a decision, I stated
it clearly and concretely, and I meant exactly what I said.  I want
the period on the first line to terminate the translation of "Emacs
Tutorial".

Please do not tell people to twist what I said.

    perhaps it is better to call this region of characters "text before
    first DELIM, where DELIM is period" instead of "sentence".

Up to the first period is exactly what I said it should be.  

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org>
   Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 09:59:45 +0300

   The text "Emacs Tutorial" on the splash screen should not be replaced
   with a translation at all because it is the text of the menu item and
   menu items under the Help menu are not translated.

there are five elements on the tutorial line:

 TITLE -- "Emacs Tutorial" translated for the current language env
 EN-TITLE -- English text "Emacs Tutorial"
 EN-BLURB -- English text "Learn-by-doing tutorial ... efficiently."
 tab -- a tab character (0x9)
 LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS -- list of locale suffixes

the pre-patch presentation format is:

 EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB

the patched presentation format is:

 (if data-directory is not availble)
 EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB

 (if filename resolved from consulting language env is "TUTORIAL")
 EN-TITLE tab LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS

 (otherwise)
 TITLE tab (EN-TITLE) LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS

what do you propose for the presentation format, based on these
conditions and elements?

thi

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Kim F. Storm]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > I recently suggested patches to report menu bindings using the real
>     > menu item texts rather than the internal names, like this:
>
>     >       File=>Print=>Print With Faces
>
> I don't think it is much of an improvement.  In any case,
> it would have to be a very important improvement to be
> installable now.
>
> For now, please let's focus on fixing bugs,
> not on small improvements.


Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> writes:

>  EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB
>
> the patched presentation format is:
>
>  (if data-directory is not availble)
>  EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB
>
>  (if filename resolved from consulting language env is "TUTORIAL")
>  EN-TITLE tab LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS
>
>  (otherwise)
>  TITLE tab (EN-TITLE) LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS
>
> what do you propose for the presentation format, based on these
> conditions and elements?

Is this really a _very important improvement_?

Why is this _more important_ than reporting sensible menu bindings?

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

storm@cua.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes:

> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> For now, please let's focus on fixing bugs,
>> not on small improvements.

> Thien-Thi Nguyen <ttn@surf.glug.org> writes:

[...]

>> what do you propose for the presentation format, based on these
>> conditions and elements?
>
> Is this really a _very important improvement_?
>
> Why is this _more important_ than reporting sensible menu bindings?

It was a reaction due to actual user feedback about a perceived
shortcoming, so its relative importance _could_ be argued.

But I would strongly suggest that we don't start down this track.
Arguing about features just on their own is already taking too much
energy on our list.  If we start the pastime of trying to achieve a
complete ordering of importance, we won't get anywhere at all.  It's
bad enough as it is.

Kim, I am obviously supportive of your patch for the sake of our
users, which is hardly surprising since I seem to remember it was due
to a proposal of mine, and I don't agree with (actually find it hard
to understand) Richard's assessment of its irrelevancy.  But a
perceived shortcoming in one issue should not be used for blocking
progress in other areas.

We not only block progress that way, but we also poison the
atmosphere.  This is not, as it may seem at times, a competition.  I
know that I may appear at fault in that respect at times.  If one has
a strong opinion about something, it is hard to accept that others may
see it as mostly irrelevant.

We are all trying to make Emacs the best that is possible, after all.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Kim F. Storm]

David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> writes:

>> Is this really a _very important improvement_?
>>
>> Why is this _more important_ than reporting sensible menu bindings?
>
> It was a reaction due to actual user feedback about a perceived
> shortcoming, so its relative importance _could_ be argued.

I never intended to start making comparisons of relative importance of
each and every suggested change -- but RMS says we shall focus on
fixing bugs and that he will only accept "very important improvements"
before the release.  That's fine, and I really doubt that _any_
improvement at this time can be considered "very important".

So based on that I can understand why minor improvement A was rejected
last week, but then I don't understand why minor improvement B is
accepted this week.  What improvements will be accepted next week?


> Kim, I am obviously supportive of your patch for the sake of our
> users [...] and I don't agree with (actually find it hard
> to understand) Richard's assessment of its irrelevancy.  

I obviously agree :-) but still I can accept the rejection (at this
time) based on the argument that it is not a "very important
improvement" for 22.x.

But then I would expect a similar rejection of other suggestions
that are not "very important improvements".  

>                                                          But a
> perceived shortcoming in one issue should not be used for blocking
> progress in other areas.

IMO, the only acceptable "progress area" at this time is "completing
the release".  Any other kind of "progress" should be rejected.

>  If one has
> a strong opinion about something, it is hard to accept that others may
> see it as mostly irrelevant.

Yes, I can accept objective reasons for a rejection -- a subjective
rejection based on "irrelevance" is harder to accept :-)

> We are all trying to make Emacs the best that is possible, after all.

Sadly, making "the best that is possible" often seems to take focus
away from "finalizing the release" based on what we already have which
IMO is "good enough"...   (I'm no better than others in that respect :-)

-- 
Kim F. Storm <storm@cua.dk> http://www.cua.dk

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    Why is this _more important_ than reporting sensible menu bindings?

Emacs already reports menu bindings in a sensible way.  This is a
small change in their syntax, not crucial.

By contrast, showing people in their own language that Emacs has a
tutorial for that language could really help them.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

> there are five elements on the tutorial line:
>
>  TITLE -- "Emacs Tutorial" translated for the current language env
>  EN-TITLE -- English text "Emacs Tutorial"
>  EN-BLURB -- English text "Learn-by-doing tutorial ... efficiently."
>  tab -- a tab character (0x9)
>  LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS -- list of locale suffixes
>
> the pre-patch presentation format is:
>
>  EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB
>
> the patched presentation format is:
>
>  (if data-directory is not availble)
>  EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB
>
>  (if filename resolved from consulting language env is "TUTORIAL")
>  EN-TITLE tab LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS
>
>  (otherwise)
>  TITLE tab (EN-TITLE) LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS
>
> what do you propose for the presentation format, based on these
> conditions and elements?

Since the splash screen displays menu items, I think that the last case
(labelled as `otherwise') should have two lines with menu items:

 Important Help menu items:
 EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB
 EN-TITLE-LANG tab TITLE LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS

where EN-TITLE-LANG is the menu item with English text
                       "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..."

And for the case
`(if filename resolved from consulting language env is "TUTORIAL")':

 Important Help menu items:
 EN-TITLE tab EN-BLURB
 EN-TITLE-LANG tab LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS

This raises another issue: I can't imagine how a non-English speaking
novice can start the tutorial?  Well, if we now add the English menu
item "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." to the splash screen then
she might find it under the Help menu and select it.  This creates the
buffer with a list of language completion.  But how she can select
a language when she knows nothing about Emacs!  With keyboard,
cursor keys don't work because she has to switch buffers with `C-x o'
to the completion buffer.  And even the left mouse button doesn't work
when slowly clicked on a language in the completion buffer with a delay
more than 350ms!

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    > there are five elements on the tutorial line:
    >
    >  TITLE -- "Emacs Tutorial" translated for the current language env
    >  EN-TITLE -- English text "Emacs Tutorial"
    >  EN-BLURB -- English text "Learn-by-doing tutorial ... efficiently."
    >  tab -- a tab character (0x9)
    >  LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS -- list of locale suffixes

LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS is not a clear way of communicating
anything to the user.  Only very experienced users will have any idea
what those locale suffixes mean.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Thien-Thi Nguyen]

   From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
   Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2005 23:11:17 -0500

   That needs to be done in order for this patch to be installed.

please find below a revised patch, including two files (lisp/startup.el
and etc/TUTORIAL.jp).  here is a suitable ChangeLog entry for the code:

	* startup.el (fancy-splash-text): Shorten default text of
	"Emacs Tutorial" line.  Also, if the current language env
	indicates an available tutorial file other than TUTORIAL,
	extract its title and append it to the line in parentheses.
	(fancy-splash-insert): If an arg is a thunk, funcall it.

i have completely dropped LIST-OF-AVAILABLE-TUTORIALS, and furthermore,
in consideration that all these are menu items, used the English text
"Emacs Tutorial" unconditionally since that is what is on the menu.  in
other words, the design has changed from substitutive to additive.

thi

___________________________________________________________
cvs -f diff -c lisp/startup.el etc/TUTORIAL*
Index: lisp/startup.el
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/lisp/startup.el,v
retrieving revision 1.340
diff -c -r1.340 startup.el
*** lisp/startup.el	6 Mar 2005 00:48:45 -0000	1.340
--- lisp/startup.el	3 Apr 2005 10:15:25 -0000
***************
*** 1004,1011 ****
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
! 	   :face variable-pitch "\
! Emacs Tutorial\tLearn-by-doing tutorial for using Emacs efficiently
  Emacs FAQ\tFrequently asked questions and answers
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
--- 1004,1030 ----
  using the mouse.\n\n"
  	   :face (variable-pitch :weight bold)
  	   "Important Help menu items:\n"
! 	   :face variable-pitch
!            (lambda ()
!              (let* ((en "TUTORIAL")
!                     (tut (or (get-language-info current-language-environment
!                                                 'tutorial)
!                              en))
!                     (title (with-temp-buffer
!                              (insert-file-contents
!                               (expand-file-name tut data-directory)
!                               nil 0 256)
!                              (search-forward ".")
!                              (buffer-substring (point-min) (1- (point))))))
!                ;; If there is a specific tutorial for the current language
!                ;; environment and it is not English, append its title.
!                (concat
!                 "Emacs Tutorial\tLearn how to use Emacs efficiently"
!                 (if (string= en tut)
!                     ""
!                   (concat " (" title ")"))
!                 "\n")))
!            :face variable-pitch "\
  Emacs FAQ\tFrequently asked questions and answers
  Read the Emacs Manual\tView the Emacs manual using Info
  \(Non)Warranty\tGNU Emacs comes with "
***************
*** 1069,1082 ****
  
  (defun fancy-splash-insert (&rest args)
    "Insert text into the current buffer, with faces.
! Arguments from ARGS should be either strings or pairs `:face FACE',
  where FACE is a valid face specification, as it can be used with
  `put-text-properties'."
    (let ((current-face nil))
      (while args
        (if (eq (car args) :face)
  	  (setq args (cdr args) current-face (car args))
! 	(insert (propertize (car args)
  			    'face current-face
  			    'help-echo fancy-splash-help-echo)))
        (setq args (cdr args)))))
--- 1088,1105 ----
  
  (defun fancy-splash-insert (&rest args)
    "Insert text into the current buffer, with faces.
! Arguments from ARGS should be either strings, functions called
! with no args that return a string, or pairs `:face FACE',
  where FACE is a valid face specification, as it can be used with
  `put-text-properties'."
    (let ((current-face nil))
      (while args
        (if (eq (car args) :face)
  	  (setq args (cdr args) current-face (car args))
! 	(insert (propertize (let ((it (car args)))
!                               (if (functionp it)
!                                   (funcall it)
!                                 it))
  			    'face current-face
  			    'help-echo fancy-splash-help-echo)))
        (setq args (cdr args)))))
Index: etc/TUTORIAL.ja
===================================================================
RCS file: /cvsroot/emacs/emacs/etc/TUTORIAL.ja,v
retrieving revision 1.11
diff -c -r1.11 TUTORIAL.ja
*** etc/TUTORIAL.ja	2 Apr 2005 18:29:00 -0000	1.11
--- etc/TUTORIAL.ja	3 Apr 2005 10:15:26 -0000
***************
*** 1,4 ****
! Emacs ^[$BF~Lg%,%$%I$G$9^[(B.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002 Free Software Foundation.
  
  Emacs ^[$B$N%3%^%s%I$rF~NO$9$k$K$O!"0lHL$K%3%s%H%m!<%k%-!<!J%-!<%H%C%W$K^[(B
--- 1,4 ----
! Emacs ^[$BF~Lg%,%$%I^[(B.
  Copyright (c) 1985, 1996, 1998, 2001, 2002 Free Software Foundation.
  
  Emacs ^[$B$N%3%^%s%I$rF~NO$9$k$K$O!"0lHL$K%3%s%H%m!<%k%-!<!J%-!<%H%C%W$K^[(B

Compilation exited abnormally with code 1 at Sun Apr  3 12:21:30

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

After a week of messing with tutorial files we eventually reached the
point where tutorial files are no more correct: some files now miss
important references to copyright conditions and not grammatically
correct anymore.  Many languages don't allow titles ended with
a period.  They should be restored to their initial correct state.
There was nothing wrong with tutorial files before changes.

A more correct way to implement this feature is to add tutorial titles
as a new property of the language info-alist similarly to the
`sample-text' property which contains a sample text in the same language.

With this getting a tutorial title will be very easy:

(get-language-info current-language-environment 'tutorial-title)

Also currently the splash screen is misleading:

Emacs Tutorial   Learn how to use Emacs efficiently (TUTORIAL TITLE)

It suggest users to select "Emacs Tutorial" to get the tutorial in their
native languages.  This is wrong menu item name.  More correct text
on the splash screen would be:

Emacs Tutorial   Learn how to use Emacs efficiently
Emacs Tutorial (choose language)...   TUTORIAL TITLE

It would be good also to create a X menu with a list of languages after
selecting "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." menu item to help
Emacs novices to select their languages.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    After a week of messing with tutorial files we eventually reached the
    point where tutorial files are no more correct: some files now miss
    important references to copyright conditions

If the reference to copyright conditions was deleted, could you put it
back?

						 and not grammatically
    correct anymore.  Many languages don't allow titles ended with
    a period.

What can they do, sue us?  They will just have to suffer ;-).
Seriously, you're making much ado about nothing.

    A more correct way to implement this feature is to add tutorial titles
    as a new property of the language info-alist similarly to the
    `sample-text' property which contains a sample text in the same language.

I already decided that question, and posted the reasons not to do it
this way.


    Emacs Tutorial   Learn how to use Emacs efficiently (TUTORIAL TITLE)

    It suggest users to select "Emacs Tutorial" to get the tutorial in their
    native languages.

What IS the menu item to get the tutorial in the locale-specified
language?  Maybe we should make that more convenient than it is now,
before we document it in the splash screen.  We could add a new menu
item "Tutorial Translation" which does this.

    It would be good also to create a X menu with a list of languages after
    selecting "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." menu item to help
    Emacs novices to select their languages.

I agree with that one.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Marcelo Toledo]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     After a week of messing with tutorial files we eventually reached the
>     point where tutorial files are no more correct: some files now miss
>     important references to copyright conditions
>
> If the reference to copyright conditions was deleted, could you put it
> back?

He won't be able to do this unless he speak all of the languages already
translated.

I don't know if it is missing or not, I can't read many of them, but we
have an entry in admin/FOR-RELEASE because we want to make sure it is
correct. We already have confirmed and corrected:

etc/TUTORIAL, etc/TUTORIAL.bg, etc/TUTORIAL.cs, etc/TUTORIAL.de,
etc/TUTORIAL.es, etc/TUTORIAL.fr, etc/TUTORIAL.it, etc/TUTORIAL.nl,
etc/TUTORIAL.pt_BR, etc/TUTORIAL.sl and etc/TUTORIAL.sv.

But we still need people to check over:

etc/TUTORIAL.cn, etc/TUTORIAL.ja, etc/TUTORIAL.ko, etc/TUTORIAL.pl,
etc/TUTORIAL.ro, etc/TUTORIAL.ru, etc/TUTORIAL.sk, etc/TUTORIAL.th and
etc/TUTORIAL.zh.

If one would like to help, just remember that the rule is:

"The first line of every tutorial must begin with a sentence saying
"Emacs Tutorial" in the respective language.  This should be followed
by "See end for copying conditions", likewise in the respective
language."

Also remember to update admin/FOR-RELEASE

We're going to fix all of them, soon, but we still have the * COPYING
section in the end of it.
-- 
Marcelo Toledo
marcelo@marcelotoledo.org
http://www.marcelotoledo.org
Mobile: 55 71 9116-1101

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Kenichi Handa]

In article <87ekdlrd8s.fsf@kali.intranet>, Marcelo Toledo <marcelo@marcelotoledo.org> writes:
> But we still need people to check over:

> etc/TUTORIAL.cn, etc/TUTORIAL.ja, etc/TUTORIAL.ko, etc/TUTORIAL.pl,
> etc/TUTORIAL.ro, etc/TUTORIAL.ru, etc/TUTORIAL.sk, etc/TUTORIAL.th and
> etc/TUTORIAL.zh.

I've just checked etc/TUTORIAL.ja and installed a proper change.

---
Ken'ichi HANDA
handa@m17n.org

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

>> If the reference to copyright conditions was deleted, could you put it
>> back?
>
> He won't be able to do this unless he speak all of the languages already
> translated.

I might try to do this only if respective maintainers don't take care of this.

> If one would like to help, just remember that the rule is:
>
> "The first line of every tutorial must begin with a sentence saying
> "Emacs Tutorial" in the respective language.  This should be
> followed by "See end for copying conditions", likewise in the
> respective language."

Your rules don't mention a period.  Does this mean that a period is
not required now.  If so, I agree.  There are languages even with no
periods at all.  It's better to put just the title on the first line
without a period.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Marcelo Toledo]

Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org> writes:

> I might try to do this only if respective maintainers don't take care
> of this.

It's always interesting to have a maintainer for a language that we
can't read. Trying to work on something that we do not understend should
be the last case. I am trying to contact or find new maintainers for
those unchecked files, if you would like to help with this, would be
great. Also if you can write/read those unchecked you could also modify
it.

>> "The first line of every tutorial must begin with a sentence saying
>> "Emacs Tutorial" in the respective language.  This should be
>> followed by "See end for copying conditions", likewise in the
>> respective language."
>
> Your rules don't mention a period.  Does this mean that a period is
> not required now.  If so, I agree.  There are languages even with no
> periods at all.  It's better to put just the title on the first line
> without a period.

That's rms rules, not mine, he wrote it, it is clear to me because I
fallowed the discussion, but I agree with you that we could add a
"fallowed by a dot (.)" in the first sentence.
-- 
Marcelo Toledo
marcelo@marcelotoledo.org
http://www.marcelotoledo.org
Mobile: 55 71 9116-1101

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    > "The first line of every tutorial must begin with a sentence saying
    > "Emacs Tutorial" in the respective language.  This should be
    > followed by "See end for copying conditions", likewise in the
    > respective language."

    Your rules don't mention a period.  Does this mean that a period is
    not required now.

The end of that sentence is always marked with a period.

The decision is made; I don't want to spend any more time discussing
this.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2005 23:22:05 -0400
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>     Emacs Tutorial   Learn how to use Emacs efficiently (TUTORIAL TITLE)
> 
>     It suggest users to select "Emacs Tutorial" to get the tutorial in their
>     native languages.
> 
> What IS the menu item to get the tutorial in the locale-specified
> language?

Help->Emacs Tutorial _is_ such a menu item.  Type "C-h k" followed by
selecting that menu item, and you will see this in the *Help* buffer:

    <menu-bar> <help-menu> <emacs-tutorial> runs the command help-with-tutorial
       which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `help-fns'.
    It is bound to C-h t, <help> t, <menu-bar> <help-menu> <emacs-tutorial>.
    (help-with-tutorial &optional ARG)

    Select the Emacs learn-by-doing tutorial.
    If there is a tutorial version written in the language
    of the selected language environment, that version is used.
    If there's no tutorial in that language, `TUTORIAL' is selected.
    With ARG, you are asked to choose which language.

So I don't understand why Juri says that this is misleading.  Juri,
can you explain?

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Juri Linkov]

> Help->Emacs Tutorial _is_ such a menu item.  Type "C-h k" followed by
> selecting that menu item, and you will see this in the *Help* buffer:
>
>     <menu-bar> <help-menu> <emacs-tutorial> runs the command help-with-tutorial
>        which is an interactive compiled Lisp function in `help-fns'.
>     It is bound to C-h t, <help> t, <menu-bar> <help-menu> <emacs-tutorial>.
>     (help-with-tutorial &optional ARG)
>
>     Select the Emacs learn-by-doing tutorial.
>     If there is a tutorial version written in the language
>     of the selected language environment, that version is used.
>     If there's no tutorial in that language, `TUTORIAL' is selected.
>     With ARG, you are asked to choose which language.
>
> So I don't understand why Juri says that this is misleading.  Juri,
> can you explain?

I was mislead by the "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." menu item.
I thought that "Emacs Tutorial" always selects the English tutorial while
"Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." selects a tutorial in any language.

The fact that English menu item "Emacs Tutorial" can select a non-English
tutorial is misleading too.  Ideally the menu item "Emacs Tutorial"
should be translated into the same language whose tutorial it selects.
This requires support for multi-language menus.

-- 
Juri Linkov
http://www.jurta.org/emacs/

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org>
> Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:32:19 +0300
> 
> I was mislead by the "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." menu item.
> I thought that "Emacs Tutorial" always selects the English tutorial while
> "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." selects a tutorial in any language.
> 
> The fact that English menu item "Emacs Tutorial" can select a non-English
> tutorial is misleading too.  Ideally the menu item "Emacs Tutorial"
> should be translated into the same language whose tutorial it selects.
> This requires support for multi-language menus.

Until multi-language menus are supported, perhaps we should change the
menu item to say

     Emacs Tutorial (in YOUR-LANGUAGE)

where YOUR-LANGUAGE stands for the language name.  This should be done
only for those languages that indeed have a translated tutorial.  The
tooltip should also hint about that.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Cc: rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> From: Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org>
>> Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2005 21:32:19 +0300
>> 
>> I was mislead by the "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." menu item.
>> I thought that "Emacs Tutorial" always selects the English tutorial while
>> "Emacs Tutorial (choose language)..." selects a tutorial in any language.
>> 
>> The fact that English menu item "Emacs Tutorial" can select a non-English
>> tutorial is misleading too.  Ideally the menu item "Emacs Tutorial"
>> should be translated into the same language whose tutorial it selects.
>> This requires support for multi-language menus.
>
> Until multi-language menus are supported, perhaps we should change the
> menu item to say
>
>      Emacs Tutorial (in YOUR-LANGUAGE)
>
> where YOUR-LANGUAGE stands for the language name.  This should be done
> only for those languages that indeed have a translated tutorial.  The
> tooltip should also hint about that.

I think we should do that only for those languages that can't be shown
in the menu.  Since this depends on a complex interaction of platform,
fonts and locales, I think the programmer wanting to put something
into a menu can't be reasonably expected to make a guess.

So I think that we should add something like
(defun menu-string-supported-p STRING &optional DISPLAY)
that will tell a programmer whether a given platform is supposed to
be able to display a given string.

It is really something that Emacs needs to tell the programmer.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:58:02 +0200
> 
> > Until multi-language menus are supported, perhaps we should change the
> > menu item to say
> >
> >      Emacs Tutorial (in YOUR-LANGUAGE)
> >
> > where YOUR-LANGUAGE stands for the language name.  This should be done
> > only for those languages that indeed have a translated tutorial.  The
> > tooltip should also hint about that.
> 
> I think we should do that only for those languages that can't be shown
> in the menu.

Why only for those?  What's wrong with showing this for all languages
that have a translated tutorial?

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

"Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Cc: Juri Linkov <juri@jurta.org>,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
>> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 01:58:02 +0200
>> 
>> > Until multi-language menus are supported, perhaps we should change the
>> > menu item to say
>> >
>> >      Emacs Tutorial (in YOUR-LANGUAGE)
>> >
>> > where YOUR-LANGUAGE stands for the language name.  This should be done
>> > only for those languages that indeed have a translated tutorial.  The
>> > tooltip should also hint about that.
>> 
>> I think we should do that only for those languages that can't be shown
>> in the menu.
>
> Why only for those?  What's wrong with showing this for all languages
> that have a translated tutorial?

  Emacs Tutorial (in de)

is much less of a day-saving eye-catcher than

  Einführung in Emacs

which is why we went to the pain of providing the latter in the splash
screen in the first place.  And where consistency with the splash
screen can be had, it does not seem out of the way to offer it.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Cc: juri@jurta.org,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> From: David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 14 Apr 2005 11:46:46 +0200
> 
> >> >      Emacs Tutorial (in YOUR-LANGUAGE)
> >> >
> >> > where YOUR-LANGUAGE stands for the language name.  This should be done
> >> > only for those languages that indeed have a translated tutorial.  The
> >> > tooltip should also hint about that.
> >> 
> >> I think we should do that only for those languages that can't be shown
> >> in the menu.
> >
> > Why only for those?  What's wrong with showing this for all languages
> > that have a translated tutorial?
> 
>   Emacs Tutorial (in de)

Last time I checked the language they speak in Germany was called
German or Deutsch, not de.  I cannot imagine why you'd think I
confused the locale name with the language name.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    > Until multi-language menus are supported, perhaps we should change the
    > menu item to say
    >
    >      Emacs Tutorial (in YOUR-LANGUAGE)
    >
    > where YOUR-LANGUAGE stands for the language name.  This should be done
    > only for those languages that indeed have a translated tutorial.  The
    > tooltip should also hint about that.

    I think we should do that only for those languages that can't be shown
    in the menu.  Since this depends on a complex interaction of platform,
    fonts and locales, I think the programmer wanting to put something
    into a menu can't be reasonably expected to make a guess.

    So I think that we should add something like
    (defun menu-string-supported-p STRING &optional DISPLAY)
    that will tell a programmer whether a given platform is supposed to
    be able to display a given string.

This might be ok in theory, but I'd rather do something simpler.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > Until multi-language menus are supported, perhaps we should
>     > change the menu item to say
>     >
>     >      Emacs Tutorial (in YOUR-LANGUAGE)
>     >
>     > where YOUR-LANGUAGE stands for the language name.  This should
>     > be done only for those languages that indeed have a translated
>     > tutorial.  The tooltip should also hint about that.
>
>     I think we should do that only for those languages that can't be
>     shown in the menu.  Since this depends on a complex interaction
>     of platform, fonts and locales, I think the programmer wanting
>     to put something into a menu can't be reasonably expected to
>     make a guess.
>
>     So I think that we should add something like
>     (defun menu-string-supported-p STRING &optional DISPLAY)
>     that will tell a programmer whether a given platform is supposed to
>     be able to display a given string.
>
> This might be ok in theory, but I'd rather do something simpler.

It is a reoccuring problem, and it will become more prevalent in
future.

For example, AUCTeX has an option that will enable the use of Unicode
math characters in menus.  How can I know when to enable it by
default?  I need to know for every platform that Emacs might be
running on, and this might even depend on your settings for the menu
font and the locale.

The necessary knowledge when to enable this option and when not is so
complicated to gather that we should provide an interface that
reflects our current wisdom.  The proposed interface has the advantage
that it is easy to use in my opinion (though I'll be glad to hear
something simpler).  Of course it is not simple to implement, but the
reason for that is that the task _is_ not simple, and it makes sense
to solve it once in Emacs instead of anew for every application.

If you have an idea that is also simpler to _use_, I'll be glad to
hear about it.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    For example, AUCTeX has an option that will enable the use of Unicode
    math characters in menus.  How can I know when to enable it by
    default?  I need to know for every platform that Emacs might be
    running on, and this might even depend on your settings for the menu
    font and the locale.

The interface that has been proposed is defined so as to make complete
informatoin available about what is or isn't supported.  That makes
it so complex to implement--to complex to be considered for now, and
undesirable even for later.

AUCTeX needs *some* information.  Could it be satisfied with less?
What is the minimum, simplest, information that could be enough?

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

[proposal was IIRC:]

(menu-string-displayable-p STRING &optional DISPLAY)

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     For example, AUCTeX has an option that will enable the use of Unicode
>     math characters in menus.  How can I know when to enable it by
>     default?  I need to know for every platform that Emacs might be
>     running on, and this might even depend on your settings for the menu
>     font and the locale.
>
> The interface that has been proposed is defined so as to make
> complete informatoin available about what is or isn't supported.
> That makes it so complex to implement--to complex to be considered
> for now, and undesirable even for later.

I can't quite see why having complete information about what is or
isn't supported would be undesirable for later.  As an application
developer, I'd rather consider it desirable.  It seems reasonable to
solve this task once, within Emacs.

> AUCTeX needs *some* information.  Could it be satisfied with less?
> What is the minimum, simplest, information that could be enough?

Well, we can omit the "technicality" of actually installed fonts: it
would be sufficient to know whether a given string could be mapped to
the toolkit _if_ the fonts were available (this will be an incentive
to people to actually install fonts _if_ they could be made to work).
I can't see how one could get along with different call semantics,
though: different displays may have different toolkits at least on the
upcoming multi-tty (like being on the tty and on x11), so it would
seem silly not to provide the DISPLAY option, and the various unifying
modes mean that we can't really give a definite decision when only
knowing about the charset instead of the actual characters in STRING.

As an intermediate version, something based on the charset/display
combination instead of the character/display combination would help a
lot already, and since charsets are not strings, one could later make
the function accept a string, too, or just a single character (in
Emacs encoding?).

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    > The interface that has been proposed is defined so as to make
    > complete informatoin available about what is or isn't supported.
    > That makes it so complex to implement--to complex to be considered
    > for now, and undesirable even for later.

    I can't quite see why having complete information about what is or
    isn't supported would be undesirable for later.

You misunderstood what I said.  I did not say the feature was
undesirable, I said the complexity to implement it was undesirable.

      It seems reasonable to
    solve this task once, within Emacs.

I hope to avoid solving it ever, if possible.

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     > The interface that has been proposed is defined so as to make
>     > complete informatoin available about what is or isn't
>     > supported.  That makes it so complex to implement--to complex
>     > to be considered for now, and undesirable even for later.
>
>     I can't quite see why having complete information about what is
>     or isn't supported would be undesirable for later.
>
> You misunderstood what I said.  I did not say the feature was
> undesirable, I said the complexity to implement it was undesirable.
>
>     It seems reasonable to solve this task once, within Emacs.
>
> I hope to avoid solving it ever, if possible.

Well, the way to do that would be to have _all_ window systems work
through Unicode encoded menus, which would then reduce the test to
(or window-system
  (uh-is-this-legal-p
    (encode-coding-string string locale-coding-system)))

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: Possible change to startup.el

[Richard Stallman]

    The fact that English menu item "Emacs Tutorial" can select a non-English
    tutorial is misleading too.  Ideally the menu item "Emacs Tutorial"
    should be translated into the same language whose tutorial it selects.
    This requires support for multi-language menus.

We can't do that now.  I think the menu support is not ready for it.

For now, I don't see anything better than what it does now.