RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Suggested experimental test

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Suggested experimental test

[Stephan Mueller]

Since opinions are explicitly being solicited, and since I have not encountered a particular point in my not-necessarily-comprehensive reading of this thread, I'll add one:

I use C-o (usually followed by C-n) many times a day, instead of <Enter>, in order to suppress re-indentation of the current line in cases where that re-indentation will be incorrect for my purposes**.

Needing to hit C-o twice would make the workaround more painful.  I expect I would end up rebinding in my .emacs to restore the current behaviour.

Also, I find myself nodding in agreement to the argument (apologies for not recalling who made it in this thread) that as a long-standing and fairly 'basic' binding, it is in use in other editors that try to be Emacs-like.  Changing the default behaviour here would introduce confusion to the world and confound muscle memory.

stephan();

** Of course, addressing the indentation issue would be good, but that perpetually remains a task for another day -- it's not a configurable behaviour, and will require me to do substantial research into cperl mode to understand more.  That said, even in cases not involving my oddly formatted perl, auto-indentation seems generally accurate enough to keep using, and inaccurate enough to need a workaround multiple times daily.

-----Original Message-----
From: Emacs-devel <emacs-devel-bounces+stephan=sbmueller.net@gnu.org> On Behalf Of Lars Ingebrigtsen
Sent: Monday, March 22, 2021 5:06 AM
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Suggested experimental test

Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org> writes:

> Well... the suggested experiment does not remove C-o, it changes C-o
> in a way that is, I believe, painless. 

Sorry; I didn't read the patch carefully.  So it basically moves `C-o'
to `C-o C-o' (and makes the `C-o' prefix open for new commands)?

I don't use `C-o' myself, so I can't really say to what degree this
would be annoying or not for users.  Any `C-o' users who have an opinion
here?

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: https://nam06.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Flars.ingebrigtsen.no%2F&amp;data=04%7C01%7CStephan.Mueller%40microsoft.com%7C6defb25382ae4b50aabc08d8ed2afd3e%7C72f988bf86f141af91ab2d7cd011db47%7C1%7C0%7C637520116190706836%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C1000&amp;sdata=dsMofHZVHi9n24IzfOxmFyXFOEVpV9GttwoJ6kXtwWA%3D&amp;reserved=0

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Suggested experimental test

[Stefan Monnier]

> I use C-o (usually followed by C-n) many times a day, instead of <Enter>, in
> order to suppress re-indentation of the current line in cases where that
> re-indentation will be incorrect for my purposes**.

FWIW, normally you can replace `C-o C-n` with `C-j`.

[ I'm not sure `cperl-mode` is sufficiently normal in this respect, tho
  (one of the reasons why I prefer `perl-mode`).  ]


        Stefan

Re: [EXTERNAL] Re: Suggested experimental test

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 22.03.2021 20:11, Stephan Mueller wrote:
> I use C-o (usually followed by C-n) many times a day, instead of <Enter>, in order to suppress re-indentation of the current line in cases where that re-indentation will be incorrect for my purposes**.

Same.

Probably less frequently, though, now that I

   (global-set-key (kbd "RET") 'newline-and-indent)

in my init script. Though this customization choice bears its own downsides.

RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Drew Adams]

> It is bound to C-j.
> (electric-newline-and-maybe-indent)
> 
> Insert a newline.
> If ‘electric-indent-mode’ is enabled, that’s that, but if it
> is *disabled* then additionally indent according to major mode.

I turned that off as soon as `C-j' was co-opted by it.
I prefer the classic Emacs RET and C-j behavior.

RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Drew Adams]

> Obviously, I'm not proposing this just to leave the that key unused.

Oh, but I wish that _were_ the proposal...  Unused AND
with an intention not to bind it by default at all.

If we can remove preloading of facemenu or whatever
then why can't we remove this or that default binding?

Post the change in NEWS, with the code to reenable
it for anyone who needs it: (global-set-key ...).

I'm in favor of freeing up `C-o' for preferential
use by 3rd-party code (e.g. as a prefix key or a
repeating command or ...).

I sympathize with anyone who has a longstanding habit
of using some key that's been bound by default.  But
nothing is easier for a user than binding such a key.

Voila.  You asked for opinions.  Apologies to all
who objected to the proposed change for other/opposite
reasons.

My objection is not to removal of the existing binding;
it's to binding `C-o' in some other default way.

Just unbind it and declare Emacs's intention, at least
for the foreseeable future, to not bind it by default.
Give it up to 3rd-party code, unless/until Emacs really
gets a screaming/important need to bind it by default.

Re: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Stefan Monnier]

> I prefer the classic Emacs RET and C-j behavior.

You mean the one where RET sometimes indents and sometimes doesn't
depending on the preference of the major mode's author?  ;-)


        Stefan

RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Drew Adams]

> > Including lisp-interaction-mode?
> lisp-interaction-mode is a weird beast, indeed.
>         Stefan "who uses IELM instead"

+1.  Drew, who uses emacs-lisp-mode instead.

Re: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   > Obviously, I'm not proposing this just to leave the that key
   > unused.

   Oh, but I wish that _were_ the proposal...  Unused AND
   with an intention not to bind it by default at all.

Seeing that to get sensible behaviour in Emacs is to re-bind it, why
can't you do the same and ignore whatever it is bound too?

RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Drew Adams]

> > I prefer the classic Emacs RET and C-j behavior.
> 
> You mean the one where RET sometimes indents and sometimes doesn't
> depending on the preference of the major mode's author?  ;-)

I suppose I do.  But the major modes I use
haven't presented a problem for me in that regard.

I use C-j to get a newline + indent behavior, just
as it always did.  And RET to get a newline-only
behavior, just as it always did.

I don't get any weird RET behavior in any modes
I use - RET just inserts a newline.  I do get
mode-specific behavior for C-j.

(Not important; just the reverse.)
___

I do find it interesting that the doc string of
`electric-indent-mode' says nothing about C-j
or RET.  Yet NEWS for Emacs 24.4 put that key
change front and center:

 *** `electric-indent-mode' is now enabled by default.
 Typing RET reindents the current line and indents the
 new line. `C-j' inserts a newline but does not indent.
 In some programming modes, additional characters are
 electric (eg `{').

RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Drew Adams]

>    > Obviously, I'm not proposing this just to leave the that key
>    > unused.
> 
>    Oh, but I wish that _were_ the proposal...  Unused AND
>    with an intention not to bind it by default at all.
> 
> Seeing that to get sensible behaviour in Emacs is to re-bind it, why
> can't you do the same and ignore whatever it is bound too?

As a user, of course I can.  I'm talking about 3rd-party
code.

And sure, 3rd-party code can likewise trample on Emacs
default bindings.  But that's asking for trouble.

I don't think we want to _encourage_ that.  But by
binding more and more keys by default, Emacs dev does
indeed risk encouraging just that - a wild free-for-all.

RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Drew Adams]

> If it is to be worth changing this keybinding [`C-o']
> to anything, it should be to `find-file'.  That is,
> after all, what all other software assigns this key to.

Wow.  Just wow.

After all.  What's next?

RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> After all.  What's next?

Do you mean besides rebinding `C-p' to `print-buffer' in Emacs 28.1?

Re: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Alfred M. Szmidt]

   And sure, 3rd-party code can likewise trample on Emacs
   default bindings.  But that's asking for trouble.

And removing features from users isn't? :-)

   I don't think we want to _encourage_ that.  But by
   binding more and more keys by default, Emacs dev does
   indeed risk encouraging just that - a wild free-for-all.

There is plenty of keybindings available for third-party modes.  Emacs
could also just state a policy that 3rd party stuff can some
keybindings like C-o / M-o for other purposes, with a caveat emperor
instead of removing those features.

Re: Suggested experimental test

[Paul W. Rankin via Emacs development discussions.]

> May I suggest the attached, slightly more controversial, experimental test?

Along this same vein, I suggest that we unbind the `e' key from self-insert-command and instead make it insert the string "Emacs " 17 times, e.g.

Before:
the quick brown fox jumped over the lazy dog

After:
thEmacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs quick brown fox jumpEmacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs d ovEmacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs r thEmacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs Emacs lazy dog

This would be a boon for promoting Emacs, and anyone wanting the legacy behaviour can just rebind `e' in their init.

Lets apply this to the master for the lols as an experiment for... one month!

Or maybe we could just not break fundamental editing operations?

Re: Suggested experimental test

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

"Paul W. Rankin" via "Emacs development discussions."
<emacs-devel@gnu.org> writes:

>> May I suggest the attached, slightly more controversial, experimental test?
>
> Along this same vein, I suggest that we unbind the `e' key from
> self-insert-command and instead make it insert the string "Emacs " 17
> times, e.g.

This isn't helpful.  People should be able to make suggestions on
emacs-devel without being ridiculed, and stuff like this makes
emacs-devel seem like a very hostile environment.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: Suggested experimental test

[tomas]

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On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:34:44AM +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> "Paul W. Rankin" via "Emacs development discussions."
> <emacs-devel@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> May I suggest the attached, slightly more controversial, experimental test?
> >
> > Along this same vein, I suggest that we unbind the `e' key from
> > self-insert-command and instead make it insert the string "Emacs " 17
> > times, e.g.
> 
> This isn't helpful.  People should be able to make suggestions on
> emacs-devel without being ridiculed, and stuff like this makes
> emacs-devel seem like a very hostile environment.

Agreed. There is a lot of ungood karma around in this thread, which
is a pity. I can understand the different POVs, but folks, could you
try to calm a bit down?

I do understand that keybindings /is/ a hot topic. It'll keep coming
back time and again. It's worth being discussed time and again, IMHO,
because it is at some intersection of tech and social: those fields
change, therefore re-discussion is necessary.

It would be far more pleasant [1] if such discussions happened without
us hurting each other :-)

Cheers

[1] and efficient -- but I'm a hedonist ;-P

 - t

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Re: Suggested experimental test

[Paul W. Rankin via Emacs development discussions.]

> On 24 Mar 2021, at 6:51 pm, <tomas@tuxteam.de> <tomas@tuxteam.de> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:34:44AM +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> This isn't helpful.  People should be able to make suggestions on
>> emacs-devel without being ridiculed, and stuff like this makes
>> emacs-devel seem like a very hostile environment.
> 
> Agreed. There is a lot of ungood karma around in this thread, which
> is a pity. I can understand the different POVs, but folks, could you
> try to calm a bit down?
> 
> I do understand that keybindings /is/ a hot topic. It'll keep coming
> back time and again. It's worth being discussed time and again, IMHO,
> because it is at some intersection of tech and social: those fields
> change, therefore re-discussion is necessary.
> 
> It would be far more pleasant [1] if such discussions happened without
> us hurting each other :-)

Guys guys guys, you just gotta read a Modest Proposal such as this with one arched eyebrow... no one wishes to spoil our Utopia.

Re: Suggested experimental test

[tomas]

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On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 07:16:39PM +1000, Paul W. Rankin wrote:

[...]

> Guys guys guys, you just gotta read a Modest Proposal such as this with one arched eyebrow...

I didn't understand that one.

> no one wishes to spoil our Utopia.

Utopia? Where's Utopia? I want to go there ;-)

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Suggested experimental test

[Eli Zaretskii]

On March 24, 2021 10:51:14 AM GMT+02:00, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 09:34:44AM +0100, Lars Ingebrigtsen wrote:
> > "Paul W. Rankin" via "Emacs development discussions."
> > <emacs-devel@gnu.org> writes:
> > 
> > >> May I suggest the attached, slightly more controversial,
> experimental test?
> > >
> > > Along this same vein, I suggest that we unbind the `e' key from
> > > self-insert-command and instead make it insert the string "Emacs "
> 17
> > > times, e.g.
> > 
> > This isn't helpful.  People should be able to make suggestions on
> > emacs-devel without being ridiculed, and stuff like this makes
> > emacs-devel seem like a very hostile environment.
> 
> Agreed. There is a lot of ungood karma around in this thread, which
> is a pity.

"A lot"?  Aren't we exaggerating a bit?  This thread amassed more than 150 messages; how many of them can be qualified as "ungood karma"?

Re: Suggested experimental test

[tomas]

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[pruned CC a bit]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 12:37:59PM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> On March 24, 2021 10:51:14 AM GMT+02:00, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:

[...]

> > Agreed. There is a lot of ungood karma around in this thread, which
> > is a pity.
> 
> "A lot"?  Aren't we exaggerating a bit?  This thread amassed more than 150 messages; how many of them can be qualified as "ungood karma"?

Eli, sometimes you make me confused. I genuinely don't know
if you are ironic here or not. In case you're not: I didn't
mean "a lot" in some quantitative sense; I admit the expression
is somewhat unfortunate.

It's more the intensity of bad feelings on (mostly) both
sides, the "oldtimers" on the one fearing someone's out to
eat their lunch, the "newcomers" on the other, pushing their
new, shiny idea and frustrated that "progress is impossible"
at every (often well-founded!) pushback... well, we see that
time and again.

Now, I think it's OK to have strong feelings about one's
main and favourite tool, but perhaps we could try to develop
some genuine understanding [1] for each other's pain points
and just be a bit... nicer to each other.

Cheers
[1] Just trying to police one's tone doesn't quite work,
   since hurt feelings tend to escape in a very weird
   passive-aggressive way :-/

 - tomás

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Re: Suggested experimental test

[Jean Louis]

We better assume good faith of each participant here.

When there is proposal to change something very fundamental to Emacs
then such proposal should be well reasoned or justified.

As changing anything fundamental in any subject of humans will cause
disagreements even if such change is maybe beneficial for the
group. When a group has made fundamental agreements between
themselves, changing or proposing those agreements requires
explanatory approach.

When there is a borderline proposal, something close to fundamental
agreements it will be either funny or sad.

If proposal is too extreme and proposes changes of things very
fundamental such as key binding for letter `e' to "Emacs" -- then this
may appear funny, and so why not make some jokes there. It tells me
that person perceivs those proposals for key binding changes as funny
and adds up to that fun, but maybe not everybody shares the
sentiments. Neither the proposal neither jokes are not bad faith, I
don't perceive it so.

Viewpoint of experienced older Emacs only users clash with view point
of users of other editors who came to Emacs world and who share
different view points, exchanging view points is good for improvement
of this software and creation of new.

Jean

Re: Suggested experimental test

[tomas]

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On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 02:51:37PM +0300, Jean Louis wrote:
> We better assume good faith of each participant here.

Yes, please :)

Cheers
 - t

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RE: [External] : Re: Suggested experimental test

[Drew Adams]

> If proposal is too extreme and proposes changes of things very
> fundamental such as key binding for letter `e' to "Emacs" -- then this
> may appear funny, and so why not make some jokes there. It tells me
> that person perceivs those proposals for key binding changes as funny
> and adds up to that fun, but maybe not everybody shares the
> sentiments. Neither the proposal neither jokes are not bad faith, I
> don't perceive it so.

+1

> Viewpoint of experienced older Emacs only users clash with view point
> of users of other editors who came to Emacs world and who share
> different view points, exchanging view points is good for improvement
> of this software and creation of new.

+1

Re: Suggested experimental test

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:13:17 +0100
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> It's more the intensity of bad feelings on (mostly) both
> sides, the "oldtimers" on the one fearing someone's out to
> eat their lunch, the "newcomers" on the other, pushing their
> new, shiny idea and frustrated that "progress is impossible"
> at every (often well-founded!) pushback... well, we see that
> time and again.

I see no problem with intense feelings, as long as they are expressed
in a civilized and polite form.  And AFAICT, they generally are in
this thread.  (The rest of what you wrote above is stuff no one
actually said, it looks like your interpretation of the social
dynamics here.  Which is fine, but it's your interpretation, not
necessarily what really goes on.  And even if it does, I wouldn't
start discussing these aspects, they are only tangentially relevant,
and moreover, we cannot really do anything about them.)

It is true that we sometimes have discussions here that end up in
flames, but this one is not one of them, nowhere near that, actually.
Thus, Lars's comment should have been enough to respond to a remark
that could have bordered on an insult (although I'm quite sure that
was never the intent).  No need to second it, not in this thread.
Exaggeration in these matters is as bad as indifference, IME.

> Now, I think it's OK to have strong feelings about one's
> main and favourite tool, but perhaps we could try to develop
> some genuine understanding [1] for each other's pain points
> and just be a bit... nicer to each other.

We do, but don't expect that to be 110% bulletproof, as even the most
innocent jokes and wording nuances are known to offend someone,
somewhere.  The only way never to risk offense is to keep silent.

Re: Suggested experimental test

[tomas]

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On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 07:04:00PM +0200, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> > Date: Wed, 24 Mar 2021 12:13:17 +0100
> > From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> > 
> > It's more the intensity of bad feelings on (mostly) both
> > sides [...]

> I see no problem with intense feelings, as long as they are expressed
> in a civilized and polite form.

We are on one page here, I think.

>                      And AFAICT, they generally are in
> this thread.  (The rest of what you wrote above is stuff no one
> actually said, it looks like your interpretation of the social
> dynamics here.  Which is fine, but it's your interpretation, not
> necessarily what really goes on.  And even if it does, I wouldn't
> start discussing these aspects, they are only tangentially relevant,
> and moreover, we cannot really do anything about them.)

Point taken. You think I went a bit overboard. If that is the case,
I apologise. Should I've hurt somebody's feelings, doubly so.

> Thus, Lars's comment should have been enough to respond to a remark
> that could have bordered on an insult (although I'm quite sure that
> was never the intent).

I'm sure of the latter, too. As for the first... yes, perhaps too
eager on my part.

[...]

> We do, but don't expect that to be 110% bulletproof, as even the most
> innocent jokes and wording nuances are known to offend someone,
> somewhere.  The only way never to risk offense is to keep silent.

Of course. Especially on mailing lists, which cross big physical
and cultural distances while providing little secondary communication
channels.

Thanks for your patience :-)

Cheers
-- tomás

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Re: Suggested experimental test

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 24.03.2021 13:13, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> the "newcomers" on the other, pushing their
> new, shiny idea and frustrated that "progress is impossible"
> at every (often well-founded!) pushback

Except these conversations much too often pit 20-year-old ideas against 
40-year-old special bespoke Emacs ideas. But I guess you could still 
call them shiny.

Re: Suggested experimental test

[tomas]

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On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 07:30:45PM +0200, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> On 24.03.2021 13:13, tomas@tuxteam.de wrote:
> >the "newcomers" on the other, pushing their
> >new, shiny idea and frustrated that "progress is impossible"
> >at every (often well-founded!) pushback
> 
> Except these conversations much too often pit 20-year-old ideas
> against 40-year-old special bespoke Emacs ideas. But I guess you
> could still call them shiny.

But that was not my point at all. I spotted communication patterns
which I thought concerning and wanted to point that out.

Eli has disagreed. I hold his opinion in high esteem and am going
to shut up now :)

Cheers
 - t

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Re: Suggested experimental test

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > We better assume good faith of each participant here.

Yes, let's all do that.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Suggested experimental test

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > Agreed. There is a lot of ungood karma around in this thread, which
  > > is a pity.

  > "A lot"?  Aren't we exaggerating a bit?  This thread amassed more than 150 messages; how many of them can be qualified as "ungood karma"?

Instead of disputing who is more wrong, how about if we simply try to
make the discussion kind from now on?



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Suggested experimental test

[Paul W. Rankin via Emacs development discussions.]

> On 25 Mar 2021, at 3:14 pm, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:
> 
> Instead of disputing who is more wrong, how about if we simply try to
> make the discussion kind from now on?

Hmm thought it was clear satire, which I never thought of as kind/unkind... Illustrating how an individual's personal preference when applied universally can easily reach absurdity...

Or the "sane defaults" meme taken to its logical conclusions.

Re: Suggested experimental test

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Date: Thu, 25 Mar 2021 01:14:37 -0400
> Cc: larsi@gnus.org, tomas@tuxteam.de, gregory@heytings.org, pwr@bydasein.com,
>  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
>   > "A lot"?  Aren't we exaggerating a bit?  This thread amassed more than 150 messages; how many of them can be qualified as "ungood karma"?
> 
> Instead of disputing who is more wrong, how about if we simply try to
> make the discussion kind from now on?

I generally find abstract calls to behave kindly not effective enough.
First, it is unclear who was unkind, or why some utterance/behavior is
unkind, or how to behave differently to make it less so.  If someone
indeed intended to be unkind, then the answer is clear at least to
that person.  But that is rarely the case; it certainly isn't so in
this last episode.

Therefore, I find that discussing this a bit is indeed beneficial, as
it lets people think more about possible misinterpretations of their
words, and maybe choose better ones next time; and it also tells those
on the receiving end to be more tolerant to what could well be an
innocent joke or even just a misunderstanding, due to language and
cultural nuances.

RE: [EXTERNAL] Re: Suggested experimental test

[Stephan Mueller]

" Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:
" Stephan Mueller <Stephan.Mueller@microsoft.com> writes:
" 
" > I use C-o (usually followed by C-n) many times a day, instead of
" > <Enter>, in order to suppress re-indentation of the current line in
" > cases where that re-indentation will be incorrect for my purposes**.
" 
" Oh, I see -- it's useful as an alternative to `RET' exactly when
" re-indentation does the wrong thing?

Yes, exactly and concisely.

stephan();