phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

The biggest army on the face of the Earth in land battles -
but up against stiff Ukrainian resistance!

Only there's no video whatsoever from these historic events
... and no accounts?

And Kiev is protected by a bunch of militias??!!

This is too much even for the famous Emacs fake news client,
Gnuf ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-26 15:33]:
> The biggest army on the face of the Earth in land battles -
> but up against stiff Ukrainian resistance!
> 
> Only there's no video whatsoever from these historic events
> ... and no accounts?
> 
> And Kiev is protected by a bunch of militias??!!
> 
> This is too much even for the famous Emacs fake news client,
> Gnuf ...

Yes, though...

Let us keep this list friendly and welcoming to everybody regardless
of their ethnicity or other politics in the world, regardless if they
are Russian or Ukrainian, that we don't discriminate on our vague
understanding of the world politics.

In other words, let's stick to Emacs Lisp.

M-x launch 🚀

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Emacs history will rather tell old-school operation with
destabilization then force ... BLOODSHED

FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?

I say: it's wrong.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?

I do and I've made a statement on that in
https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
aircraft that could be used as a drone.

On 2/27/22 00:57, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
editor wrote:
> Emacs history will rather tell old-school operation with
> destabilization then force ... BLOODSHED
>
> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>
> I say: it's wrong.
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
--
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jacob Hrbek wrote:

>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>
> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

Hm ...

I say just war is wrong.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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what do you propose then

On 2/27/22 01:17, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
editor wrote:
> Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>
>>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
>> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
>> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
>> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
>> aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> Hm ...
>
> I say just war is wrong.
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
--
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Jacob Hrbek wrote:

> what do you propose then

Uhm ...

  FOSS Community says war is wrong

?

Don't know what heavyweights officially make up FOSS Community
but they have my vote :)

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor
<help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Uhm ...
>
>   FOSS Community says war is wrong
>
> ?
>
> Don't know what heavyweights officially make up FOSS Community
> but they have my vote :)

How is this discourse related to Emacs?

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>  > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> 
> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are 
almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.

And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war 
protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.

There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than 
others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently 
used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by 
probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been 
retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any* 
country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Dmitry Gutov wrote:

>>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>>
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short
>> taking steps to reduce russian access to my software and
>> hardware by revoking the right to use, study, improve and
>> distribute + considering to take identity verification and
>> vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source aircraft
>> that could be used as a drone.
>
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you
> are are almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at
> least in part.

Let's just say one should have the finger on the pulse of this
and come up with something good.

Punish broadly - no ...

One have a short slogan that the most people can agree
with ...

  Russia's war is wrong

is enough ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[emacsq]

>  I don't think it's a good idea to have *any* country use such software.

Somewhere some developer will always take the money to write such
software, especially if it pays well, and there will always be rogue
regimes using this software.

Like people working in other professions developers are not saints
either.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 0-a horo kaj 57:14 CET Emanuel Berg via Users list for 
the GNU Emacs text editor a écrit :
> Emacs history will rather tell old-school operation with
> destabilization then force ... BLOODSHED

i don’t get what you are talking about in that sentence, what is oldschool about, what 
destabilization are you talking about, etc.

> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?

Good question, but wrongly phrased, because it’s ambiguous, and in these time ambiguity 
is no good, and can only go in the favor of whatever position is dominant at a given place.

People, especially the few most attained by putin’s propaganda, could believe you are on 
russian side, and ukraine or nato is responsible for the war, so they have to «stop» 
something for it to cease.

> I say: it's wrong.

Idk whether that’s really useful, afais, most of the planet condemn the agression of putin 
against ukraine, russians first.  That includes almost all countries (with noone, not even 
iran and china actually doing anything concrete in his favor), consensus among most 
populations, and almost all russian cities.  The only exceptions I saw are some out of reality 
indians with misplaced skeptikism, and extremely far right wing ppl (mostly neonazis), but 
they’re a minority.

Given this is not the first bordering country that joins nato, that no country supports him, 
that he’s gonna loose the power he won through oil (by betrailing opep), gas blackmailing 
(by successfully corrupting europe out of nuclear and into more gas despite global heating 
urgency), to me and most ppl I know, he just got senile and the few years he spent in his 
bunker exageratedly because of covid worsened the thing.  Idk then if anything rational 
(like condamnation) can help.

I think the only thing that can help ukraine rn is direct material or even military support 
(which for some reason otan still didn’t gave afaiu), economical sanctions will hurt russians 
more than putin and his thugs.

Given that, I take that in whatever circumstances, it’s reasonable to expect everybody 
already agrees on supporting ukraine.  To the point putting their flag anywhere will be 
taken as a symbol of freedom and antimilitarism more than the opposite, or even than any 
nationalism.

On the other hand, experience have shown that there may, or will, be some small mislead, 
trollish, minority that will be proputin, start disagreeing by spreading misplaced skepticism, 
asymetric neutrality, etc. and that most of the people will react ’till (useless) exhaustion, 
not realizing it’s only a minority, that convinces nobody, and wrongfully end up believing 
there’s some «half and half» division of opinions and sides… which is false.

So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or maintainers have desire to 
follow the consensual and comforting trend of putting their flag anywhere in sign of 
support.  That’d be in line with our ideas of freedom.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:

> So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> with our ideas of freedom.

The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
working on Emacs.

Also, why is this on help-gnu-emacs, instead of emacs-tangents or some
other more appropriate mailing list?

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

This is just for some social justice warriors to feel good about themselves.  Totalitarian regimes do not care about rhetoric.
Nation States have the capability of obliterating the earth several
times over, and common people got no chance.  And those who claim that
every country should deal with conflict by itself, using the principle of non-interference, are stupidly naive.  That's what Putin wants,
non-interference, so Ukraine will stand no chance.

When Hitler invaded Poland, the world went to war.  Today, with many
socialist countries - a dumped version of communism - many people
without the courage to admit they are communists, will simply employ anti-war rhetoric which will surely not bring any tangible results
for the people of Ukraine.

------- Original Message -------

On Sunday, February 27th, 2022 at 3:25 AM, emacsq <laszlomail@protonmail.com> wrote:

> > I don't think it's a good idea to have any country use such software.
>
> Somewhere some developer will always take the money to write such
>
> software, especially if it pays well, and there will always be rogue
>
> regimes using this software.
>
> Like people working in other professions developers are not saints
>
> either.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 8:05 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
 
> > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > with our ideas of freedom.
 
 
I fully agree to abandon the topic. There is no justification to target 
people because of nationality as far as the Gnu Project is concerned.  
This happens because of a section of the community that are not aligned 
properly with the GNU Project.

In their personal capacity, they can do as they wish.

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://stallmansupport.org/
https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 1-a horo kaj 18:33 CET Jacob Hrbek a 
écrit :
> what do you propose then

that’s trolling, as he was the one initiating the thread, literally suggesting 
something (issuing statements and condamnations).

but that’s also dosomethingite, as in a case where you can do nothing 
effective (well, technically you could walk to ukraine and help (if you trust 
your physical abilities enough), or send money there (if you’re rich 
enough)), you’re the one proposing bad ideas (literally proposing to stop 
doing free software in most free software place), and then asking to 
people what to do

it’s common to happen in most emotionally surprising and overwhelming 
situations, like during attentats, but it doesn’t help

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 2-a horo kaj 10:18 CET Dmitry Gutov a écrit :
> On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> 
> 
> > > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> 
> 
> 
> > I do and I've made a statement on that in
> > https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> > reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the
> > right
> > to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> > verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> > aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> 
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.
> 
> And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war
> protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.

Also most of siberia (Jekaterinburg, etc.)

> There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than
> others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently
> used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by
> probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been
> retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any*
> country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.

Well said, but none of that software is free, afaik (unfortunately for me, since I suffer 
prosopagnosia xD but anyway those software are not made to be trained, hosted and used 
by individuals)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 4-a horo kaj 25:03 CET emacsq a écrit :
> >  I don't think it's a good idea to have *any* country use such
> >  software.
> 
> Somewhere some developer will always take the money to write such
> software, especially if it pays well, and there will always be rogue
> regimes using this software.
> 
> Like people working in other professions developers are not saints
> either.

I’m under the impression that it takes more than «some» developer to develop such 
complex and crucial software…

Also it usually base on deep neural networks hence requiring very massive training 
input, which to be collected actually requires action from even more many people, so 
it’s even easier to stop if there is appropriate collective actions (but that requires stop 
sharing faces in public (which is less convenient) and centralized services (which is 
nowadays made difficult))

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 5:42 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > with our ideas of freedom.
> 
> The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
> the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
> the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
> working on Emacs.

Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by the past (like 
supporting uyghurs or dunno, other geopolitical stuff) and that doesn’t stop from software 
freedom or contribution… to me that’s alike people stating anything personal (like «i like 
pasta», or dunno) or humor or what in projects: at least it makes it (nonpermanently) more 
personal and identifiable, maybe it even can increases contribution.

> Also, why is this on help-gnu-emacs, instead of emacs-tangents or some
> other more appropriate mailing list?

very good question, although unfortunately your statement, being more policy targetted, is 
likely more appropriated here :'D

Re: phantom invasion and ghostly resistance

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 2:36 AM
> From: "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: phantom invasion and ghostly resistance
>
> * Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-26 15:33]:
> > The biggest army on the face of the Earth in land battles -
> > but up against stiff Ukrainian resistance!
> > 
> > Only there's no video whatsoever from these historic events
> > ... and no accounts?
> > 
> > And Kiev is protected by a bunch of militias??!!
> > 
> > This is too much even for the famous Emacs fake news client,
> > Gnuf ...
> 
> Yes, though...
> 
> Let us keep this list friendly and welcoming to everybody regardless
> of their ethnicity or other politics in the world, regardless if they
> are Russian or Ukrainian, that we don't discriminate on our vague
> understanding of the world politics.
> 
> In other words, let's stick to Emacs Lisp.
> 
> M-x launch 🚀
> 
> -- 
> Jean


M-x launch 🚀  Jean :)  Have a number of Russian friends, whose opinion
and actions are of no consequence to the conflict.  The problem is mainly
a problem between state functionaries.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 39:37 
CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> In their personal capacity, they can do as they wish.

I really hoped and wish they can’t, even in their 
personal capacity, abandon software freedom and use 
their skills, and power granted to them by them and 
copyright, as a way of oppression(

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 8:58 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 39:37 
> CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> > In their personal capacity, they can do as they wish.
> 
> I really hoped and wish they can’t, even in their 
> personal capacity, abandon software freedom and use 
> their skills, and power granted to them by them and 
> copyright, as a way of oppression(
 

It is my wish and my blessing for the enlightenment about the realities
of the world, and becoming a positive influence as far as results are
concerned.  Wishful thinking and good intentions have never been enough.
We all have to evolve as human beings rather their repeating the same 
mistakes as our predecessors.

I have no doubt in my mind that the Russian-Ukranian conflict is of no
real consequence to the project itself.  Except for those with socialist
and communist leanings to reassess themselves.  I see too many with
ideological beliefs and would really like to see a day when 90% of the world
in joyful.  

I am old enough to remember the dissident activity across the socialist Eastern 
Bloc in the form of the Samizdat publications.  Russians will rise to this
occasion and evade official Soviet censorship.  


----- Christopher Dimech -----
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

----- Christopher Dimech
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
bestow.

In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !

https://stallmansupport.org/
https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/


> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 8:53 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 9-a horo kaj 5:42 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > So I propose to abandon the topic, unless some webmasters or
> > > maintainers have desire to follow the consensual and comforting trend
> > > of putting their flag anywhere in sign of support.  That’d be in line
> > > with our ideas of freedom.
> > 
> > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that of
> > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides on
> > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to continue
> > working on Emacs.
> 
> Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by the past (like 
> supporting uyghurs or dunno, other geopolitical stuff) and that doesn’t stop from software 
> freedom or contribution… to me that’s alike people stating anything personal (like «i like 
> pasta», or dunno) or humor or what in projects: at least it makes it (nonpermanently) more 
> personal and identifiable, maybe it even can increases contribution.

The Chinese Communist Party is avoiding criticizing Russia's invasion of Ukraine.  It is
therefore unsurprising to encounter such propaganda here. 
 
> > Also, why is this on help-gnu-emacs, instead of emacs-tangents or some
> > other more appropriate mailing list?
> 
> very good question, although unfortunately your statement, being more policy targetted, is 
> likely more appropriated here :'D
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:

> Why require so hardly such neutrality?

Because it's required by my employer.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:12 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
>
> > Why require so hardly such neutrality?

> Because it's required by my employer.

The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

----- Christopher Dimech -----
Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
which says:

  A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
  causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
  it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.

Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It would
be a shame for that work to go to waste.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[tomas]

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On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 11:22:44AM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:

[...]

> > Because it's required by my employer.
> 
> The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

You are not the Gnu project. Besides, your behaviour is

It is legitimate to be worried by whatever is going on
in the world at the moment (heck, I am, too). It is OK
to have an occassional off-topic post because of that.
It is NOT OK to unleash a monster thread about that, where
about three to four people (you know who you are) monopolize
bandwith and drain good-will here.

Were I the list admin, I'd already kicked you out until your
temper cools down. Luckily I am not.

Please, pretty please: take this to emacs-tangents.

Cheers
-- 
t

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:25 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
>
> See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
> which says:
>
>   A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
>   causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
>   it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.
>
> Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It would
> be a shame for that work to go to waste.

Have stated that the topic should not be progressed further.  I continue to work
with russian collaborators, irrespective of what happens.  You make good remark
but for the wrong reasons.  Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.
If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to provide
them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to discriminate based
on political association.

Christopher

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3232 bytes --]

 > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are 
almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.  -- Gutov

I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even 
imagine how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses 
Free Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and 
freedom and who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian 
citizens did for Free Software and for me like all the helping that i 
got with issues including kindness of submitting a patches for a 
problems that i had, because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental 
health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a 
day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've done 
on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14 years, 
because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability of 
russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers and 
sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war crimes 
against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at their 
homes.

 > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are 
anti-war protests all around the world, including Moscow and 
Saint-Petersburg. -- Gutov

Russian citizens have a major role in this war i know the cost of 
opposing putin in russia some of my family even experienced it first 
hand in what happened before the Velvet Revolution in Czechia, but it's 
no where near the cost that ukrainians are paying right now.

Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole 
world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians 
overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more 
people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose 
their leader to do it.

On 2/27/22 02:10, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>>   > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>>
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
>> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
>> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
>> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
>> aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.
>
> And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war
> protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.
>
> There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than
> others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently
> used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by
> probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been
> retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any*
> country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.

-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022 10-a horo kaj 51:49 CET, vous avez écrit :
> ----- Christopher Dimech
> Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project
> 
> Society has become too quick to pass judgement

why do you do that yourself here after then????
 
> > > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that
> > > of
> > > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides
> > > on
> > > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to
> > > continue working on Emacs.
> > 
> > Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by
> > the past
>
> The Chinese Communist Party is avoiding criticizing Russia's invasion of
> Ukraine.  It is therefore unsurprising to encounter such propaganda
> here.

What does this have to do at all with china? I don’t like how you are linking Po Lu with that 
while he have shown to be greatly committed to the values of freedom, more than many 
ppl here.

Linking ppl opinions’ with their nationality is already what is fueling both russia’s 
aggression and the oppression of russians by both putin and the now mislead and hypocrit 
rest of the world, please don’t further that and what you were criticizing yourself

> Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
> Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
> bestow.
> 
> In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
> Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
> opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !
> 
> https://stallmansupport.org/
> https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/

this is totally unrelated, and eastern people, among which undistinguishedly chineses, 
russians and ukrainians, were the one showing most support.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 12:35 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > Why require so hardly such neutrality?
> 
> Because it's required by my employer.

ohhhh ok! that’s a really understandable and reasonable reason yes! I’m so 
sorry it is so, and hope you the best for future…

anyway neutrality is not materially supporting ukraine aggression, and as a free 
software we can’t do anything about that… (or people could maybe try to put 
stuff in elpa that would be useful to ukrainians’ resistence, but it would most 
likely (and better) be useful for others too anyway).

btw it makes me curious, who is your employer? are you salaree to work on 
emacs? :o if so that’s really cool :o

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 22:44 CET Christopher Dimech a 
écrit :
> > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:12 PM
> > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> > 
> > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > Why require so hardly such neutrality?
> > 
> > Because it's required by my employer.
> 
> The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.

he didn’t give any order (HE takes order, because of the same shitty capitalism we 
all unfortunately live under), he simply stated we’re gonna loose a very good, 
committed and trustworthy maintainer if we do something we btw don’t really 
need to.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:52 PM
> From: tomas@tuxteam.de
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> On Sun, Feb 27, 2022 at 11:22:44AM +0100, Christopher Dimech wrote:
>
> [...]
>
> > > Because it's required by my employer.
> >
> > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
>
> You are not the Gnu project. Besides, your behaviour is

May I remind you that I form part of the Official Gnu Project with
authority being conferred to me.


> It is legitimate to be worried by whatever is going on
> in the world at the moment (heck, I am, too). It is OK
> to have an occassional off-topic post because of that.
> It is NOT OK to unleash a monster thread about that, where
> about three to four people (you know who you are) monopolize
> bandwith and drain good-will here.

> Were I the list admin, I'd already kicked you out until your
> temper cools down. Luckily I am not.

It is a sure thing that Gnu Admin is not in the habit to place
individuals as persona-non-grata as you are in the habit of doing.

You are free to comment nonetheless, and will not exert influence
in line with your attitude.

> Please, pretty please: take this to emacs-tangents.

> Cheers
> --
> t
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 15:22 CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:25 PM
> > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau"
> > <galex-713@galex-713.eu> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> 
> > Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> 
> > > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
> 
> 
> 
> > See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
> > which says:
> > 
> > A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
> > causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
> > it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.
> > 
> > Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It
> > would
> > be a shame for that work to go to waste.
> 
> Have stated that the topic should not be progressed further.  I continue
> to work with russian collaborators, irrespective of what happens.

Nobody from GNU ever told otherwise from keep working with russians.  Anyway most 
russians are against this aggression war too.

> You
> make good remark but for the wrong reasons.  Be aware that threats have
> never yielded good results.

But sometimes on short term you cannot escape it(

Also whole capitalism, controlling most of economy, work by threat: obey or you’ll loose 
your money and right to housing and feeding… or at least loose some privilege

> If your employer insists on things you
> disagree on, it is customary to provide them with a rebuttal in
> writing.  Employers are bound not to discriminate based on political
> association.

not in every country, if he was in china, it wouldn’t be so

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:18 PM
> From: "Jacob Hrbek" <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz>
> To: "Dmitry Gutov" <dgutov@yandex.ru>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
>  > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are 
> almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.  -- Gutov
> 
> I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even 
> imagine how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses 
> Free Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and 
> freedom and who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian 
> citizens did for Free Software and for me like all the helping that i 
> got with issues including kindness of submitting a patches for a 
> problems that i had, because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental 
> health is in absolute shit and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a 
> day since the war started blaming myself for all the work that i've done 
> on Free Software and in Free Software Activism in the last ~14 years, 
> because my work in Free Software contributed to the capability of 
> russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of my brothers and 
> sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing war crimes 
> against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at their 
> homes.

Your work benefits everybody, remember that.  Don't let guilt turn you
into a vegetable.  Am quite sure that you have not done much direct work
for Putin that helps him coordinate his plan better.

Please continue with your good work.
 

>  > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are 
> anti-war protests all around the world, including Moscow and 
> Saint-Petersburg. -- Gutov
> 
> Russian citizens have a major role in this war i know the cost of 
> opposing putin in russia some of my family even experienced it first 
> hand in what happened before the Velvet Revolution in Czechia, but it's 
> no where near the cost that ukrainians are paying right now.
> 
> Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole 
> world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians 
> overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more 
> people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose 
> their leader to do it.
> 
> On 2/27/22 02:10, Dmitry Gutov wrote:
> > On 27.02.2022 02:02, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> >>   > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> >>
> >> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> >> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> >> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> >> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> >> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> >> aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> > There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are
> > almost certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.
> >
> > And not all of us support this terrible, unjust war. There are anti-war
> > protests all around the world, including Moscow and Saint-Petersburg.
> >
> > There are certain kinds of software that are more problematic than
> > others, though. For instance, face recognition software now currently
> > used by Russian government on its citizens was at some point written by
> > probably well-meaning developers. Given how quickly it has been
> > retargeted at protestors, I don't think it's a good idea to have *any*
> > country use such software. Though that ship has probably sailed.
> 
> -- 
> Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine
> 
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:19 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022 10-a horo kaj 51:49 CET, vous avez écrit :
> > ----- Christopher Dimech
> > Administrator General - Naiad Informatics - Gnu Project
> > 
> > Society has become too quick to pass judgement
> 
> why do you do that yourself here after then????
>  
> > > > The GNU project doesn't have any political opinions aside from that
> > > > of
> > > > the free software movement.  I hope that includes not taking sides
> > > > on
> > > > the conflict in the Ukraine, or otherwise I will not be able to
> > > > continue working on Emacs.
> > > 
> > > Why require so hardly such neutrality? I mean other projects did so by
> > > the past
> >
> > The Chinese Communist Party is avoiding criticizing Russia's invasion of
> > Ukraine.  It is therefore unsurprising to encounter such propaganda
> > here.
> 
> What does this have to do at all with china? I don’t like how you are linking Po Lu with that 
> while he have shown to be greatly committed to the values of freedom, more than many 
> ppl here.

His point was about not taking sides.  Which means not criticising the russian state. 
 
> Linking ppl opinions’ with their nationality is already what is fueling both russia’s 
> aggression and the oppression of russians by both putin and the now mislead and hypocrit 
> rest of the world, please don’t further that and what you were criticizing yourself

Was commenting on his employers as his motivation was employer related.  
 
> > Society has become too quick to pass judgement and declare someone
> > Persona Non-Grata, the most extreme form of censure a country can
> > bestow.
> > 
> > In a new era of destructive authoritarianism, I support Richard
> > Stallman.  Times of great crisis are also times of great
> > opportunity.  I call upon you to make this struggle yours as well !
> > 
> > https://stallmansupport.org/
> > https://www.fsf.org/     https://www.gnu.org/
> 
> this is totally unrelated, and eastern people, among which undistinguishedly chineses, 
> russians and ukrainians, were the one showing most support.

Correct.  Have not said anything against any of those people.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:24 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 11-a horo kaj 22:44 CET Christopher Dimech a 
> écrit :
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:12 PM
> > > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> > > Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> > > 
> > > Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu> writes:
> > > > Why require so hardly such neutrality?
> > > 
> > > Because it's required by my employer.
> > 
> > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
> 
> he didn’t give any order (HE takes order, because of the same shitty capitalism we 
> all unfortunately live under), he simply stated we’re gonna loose a very good, 
> committed and trustworthy maintainer if we do something we btw don’t really 
> need to.

No, but his employer does. We can all screw our employers and continue with the work,
covertly if necessary.  I had such problems in france but continued to work anyway.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.

I wasn't threatening anyone.

> If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to
> provide them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to
> discriminate based on political association.

That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org,  Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:48:44 +0800
> 
> That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

None of the people who spoke on this subject here represents the Emacs
maintainers or the Emacs project.

And I agree that this is off-topic here (or anywhere on Emacs-related
lists, actually).  I urge everyone to please stop using this list for
this topic.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:31 PM
> From: "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> To: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>, "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 15:22 CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> > > Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 10:25 PM
> > > From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > > To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> > > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau"
> > > <galex-713@galex-713.eu> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
> > 
> > > Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> > 
> > 
> > > > The Gnu Project does not take orders from your employer.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > See https://www.gnu.org/prep/maintain/html_node/Other-Politics.html,
> > > which says:
> > > 
> > > A GNU package should not seriously advocate any other political
> > > causes. Not that the GNU Project opposes those other causes. Rather,
> > > it is neutral on them, and GNU packages should be neutral too.
> > > 
> > > Anyway, I've been doing a great deal of work on Emacs lately.  It
> > > would
> > > be a shame for that work to go to waste.
> > 
> > Have stated that the topic should not be progressed further.  I continue
> > to work with russian collaborators, irrespective of what happens.
> 
> Nobody from GNU ever told otherwise from keep working with russians.  Anyway most 
> russians are against this aggression war too.

Not officially from Gnu, but from others who contact me personally.
 
> > You
> > make good remark but for the wrong reasons.  Be aware that threats have
> > never yielded good results.
> 
> But sometimes on short term you cannot escape it(
> 
> Also whole capitalism, controlling most of economy, work by threat: obey or you’ll loose 
> your money and right to housing and feeding… or at least loose some privilege
> 
> > If your employer insists on things you
> > disagree on, it is customary to provide them with a rebuttal in
> > writing.  Employers are bound not to discriminate based on political
> > association.
> 
> not in every country, if he was in china, it wouldn’t be so
> 
>

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Po Lu]

Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:

> We can all screw our employers and continue with the work, covertly if
> necessary.

That's a risk most people are not willing to take.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:53 PM
> From: "Eli Zaretskii" <eliz@gnu.org>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> > From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org,  Alexandre Garreau <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> > Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2022 19:48:44 +0800
> >
> > That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> > make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> > difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> > Russia or that of the Ukraine.)
>
> None of the people who spoke on this subject here represents the Emacs
> maintainers or the Emacs project.
>
> And I agree that this is off-topic here (or anywhere on Emacs-related
> lists, actually).  I urge everyone to please stop using this list for
> this topic.

I fully agree for a stop on this topic.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2022 at 11:48 PM
> From: "Po Lu" <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> To: "Christopher Dimech" <dimech@gmx.com>
> Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, "Alexandre Garreau" <galex-713@galex-713.eu>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> Christopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
>
> > Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.
>
> I wasn't threatening anyone.
>
> > If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to
> > provide them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to
> > discriminate based on political association.
>
> That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

Our policy is only to align with the free software movement, nothing else.
Please bare with us when others start campaigning for actions we disagree
to do.  I have refused to make any official statements.  Hope it works for
you.  If there are problems, please let me know.


Felicitations
Christopher

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 
48:31 CET Christopher Dimech a écrit :
> No, but his employer does. We can all screw our 
employers and continue
> with the work, covertly if necessary.  I had such 
problems in france
> but continued to work anyway.

France is very liberal on that perspect because we are 
used to act that way, but that’s not that general

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le dimanĉo, 27-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 48:44 CET Po Lu a écrit :
> hristopher Dimech <dimech@gmx.com> writes:
> 
> 
> 
> > Be aware that threats have never yielded good results.
> 
> I wasn't threatening anyone.

I think he meant about your employer threatening you (or the project you benefit to, 
indirectly), at least that’s how I understood

> > If your employer insists on things you disagree on, it is customary to
> > provide them with a rebuttal in writing.  Employers are bound not to
> > discriminate based on political association.
> 
> That's not possible for me.  Anyway, this isn't your or my decision to
> make, but I hope the Emacs maintainers will not put me into such a
> difficult position by taking sides on this conflict.  (Whether that of
> Russia or that of the Ukraine.)

I hope neither

(nobody will take side of putin)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 27.02.2022 13:18, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole 
> world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians 
> overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more 
> people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose 
> their leader to do it.

I've been living outside of Russia for the last several years, but I'm 
doing what I can to help and educate fellow citizens as well.

One final point I wanted to make: there is little use fighting against 
illegal actors, against human rights abusers, using software licenses.

Copyright licenses are a tool for the civilized world. If someone is 
intent on committing a crime (moreso if it's a government agency), they 
will even more easily violate whatever conditions you will try to impose 
on your freely distributed software.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 at 6:31 AM
> From: "Dmitry Gutov" <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> To: "Jacob Hrbek" <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz>, help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
> On 27.02.2022 13:18, Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> > Please go join them and please convince others to do the same. The whole
> > world supports ukrainians and the whole world will support russians
> > overthrowing that war criminal in moscow, but there has to be more
> > people doing the protests and calling on the russian forces to oppose
> > their leader to do it.

> I've been living outside of Russia for the last several years, but I'm
> doing what I can to help and educate fellow citizens as well.

> One final point I wanted to make: there is little use fighting against
> illegal actors, against human rights abusers, using software licenses.

> Copyright licenses are a tool for the civilized world. If someone is
> intent on committing a crime (moreso if it's a government agency), they
> will even more easily violate whatever conditions you will try to impose
> on your freely distributed software.

You are absolutely right Dmitry.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> [2022-02-27 03:04]:
> > FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> 
> I do and I've made a statement on that in
> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

This list is not for promotion of proprietary software. 

Condemning citizens of single country for what their political leaders
do is wrong.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

butterfly effect

[Jean Louis]

* Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> [2022-02-27 03:18]:
> Jacob Hrbek wrote:
> 
> >> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
> >
> > I do and I've made a statement on that in
> > https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
> > reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
> > to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
> > verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
> > aircraft that could be used as a drone.
> 
> Hm ...
> 
> I say just war is wrong.

😆 You said wor is wrong, and now you got proprietary software
creation. 

It is butterfly effect.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> [2022-02-27 04:11]:
> There is a lot of Free Software written by Russians that you are are almost
> certainly using. Maybe not entirely but at least in part.

Including in Emacs. And I hope to see more of both Russians and
Ukrainian, contributing to Emacs, including from every person in the
world.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> [2022-02-27 14:20]:
> I am slav with lot of russians and ukrainians friends you can't even imagine
> how much this hurts me to do this as someone who loves and uses Free
> Software in everything and who hates restrictions on privacy and freedom and
> who is endlessly appreciate of all the work that russian citizens did for
> Free Software and for me like all the helping that i got with issues
> including kindness of submitting a patches for a problems that i had,
> because I feel fucking sick and guilty, my mental health is in absolute shit
> and i didn't sleep for more then 3 hours a day since the war started blaming
> myself for all the work that i've done on Free Software and in Free Software
> Activism in the last ~14 years, because my work in Free Software contributed
> to the capability of russian military to do this war to bomb cities full of
> my brothers and sisters, killing newborns, children, elderly and committing
> war crimes against unarmed citizens scared for their life who are hiding at
> their homes.

😳 Bad. That is the effect of not reading and not understanding fully
the meanings of free software.

From:
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html

,----
| The freedom to run the program as you wish
`----

That includes the freedom to do malicious things with
software. Anything illegal, malicious, it is handled by government
laws. They already forbid crimes. 

Imagine software being metal known as STEEL. You can do bridges with
it, and you can construct military weapon.

Software is like that, it can be a game and it can be weapon too.


-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jean Louis]

* Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> [2022-02-27 21:33]:
> Copyright licenses are a tool for the civilized world. If someone is intent
> on committing a crime (moreso if it's a government agency), they will even
> more easily violate whatever conditions you will try to impose on your
> freely distributed software.

Exactly.

-- 
Jean

Take action in Free Software Foundation campaigns:
https://www.fsf.org/campaigns

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.

One thing is promotion of proprietary software the other is the
promotion of freedom for which we dedicated our effort to do

It can _NOT_ be called a Free Software and Free Hardware Designs if it's
used to circumvent the Freedom for 43 _MILLION_ people (that's 43 000
000 people!) by violence, war crimes and death.

What i argue for is to enforce the values on which we found Free
Software instead of being ignorant and dedicating more resources in this
namely the second part that majority of Free Software advocates and
developers comfortably prefer to not exist:

  * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
    help your neighbour_

How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here? We are
enabling this violent war criminal who wages the war on freedom with the
threat of a nuclear missiles on the European Union member countries and
invasion of finland and swed
en to kill us and our neighbours and worse
in my case my slav brothers and sisters.

Each minute that we hesitate on the subject is a minute of resources
that we gift to russia to continue in this by maintaining their
technological infrastructure.

 > Condemning citizens of single country for what their political
leaders do is wrong.

I am not condemning, i even praised my brothers and sisters in russia
who take a huge risks to oppose putin by staging mass protests across
russian federation as "The Heroes of
Russia"[https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107875192175864676] multiple times and
i do whatever i can to support them.

On 2/28/22 10:16, Jean Louis wrote:
> This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.

--
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Christopher Dimech]

> Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 at 11:46 PM
> From: "Jacob Hrbek" <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz>
> To: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org
> Cc: "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org>, "Jean Louis" <bugs@gnu.support>
> Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine
>
>  > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.
>
> One thing is promotion of proprietary software the other is the
> promotion of freedom for which we dedicated our effort to do
>
> It can _NOT_ be called a Free Software and Free Hardware Designs if it's
> used to circumvent the Freedom for 43 _MILLION_ people (that's 43 000
> 000 people!) by violence, war crimes and death.
>
> What i argue for is to enforce the values on which we found Free
> Software instead of being ignorant and dedicating more resources in this
> namely the second part that majority of Free Software advocates and
> developers comfortably prefer to not exist:
>
>   * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
>     help your neighbour_
>
> How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here? We are
> enabling this violent war criminal who wages the war on freedom with the
> threat of a nuclear missiles on the European Union member countries and
> invasion of finland and swed
> en to kill us and our neighbours and worse
> in my case my slav brothers and sisters.
>
> Each minute that we hesitate on the subject is a minute of resources
> that we gift to russia to continue in this by maintaining their
> technological infrastructure.
>
>  > Condemning citizens of single country for what their political
> leaders do is wrong.
>
> I am not condemning, i even praised my brothers and sisters in russia
> who take a huge risks to oppose putin by staging mass protests across
> russian federation as "The Heroes of
> Russia"[https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107875192175864676] multiple times and
> i do whatever i can to support them.
>
> On 2/28/22 10:16, Jean Louis wrote:
> > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.
>
> --
> Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the topic.  We
do not see how words and declarations can make real difference in
the matter.  All we can do is better ourself as individuals, growing
a community that is not based on borders set by governments.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

I don't know if the Ukrainian army is really fighting back or
not, and the invasion sure didn't look the way we expected,
but that doesn't make it any less an invasion.

And moreover, so what? No matter how clever a scheme this
turns out to be it is still wrong ...

RUSSIA'S WAR IS WRONG!

PS. This sure doesn't happen every day BTW. The major FOSS
    bodies should absolutely say something, just anything
    really with the position they/we are opposed to it!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Christopher Dimech wrote:

> Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the
> topic. We do not see how words and declarations can make
> real difference in the matter.

They can, in the short and long run.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Samuel Banya]

Does no one else realize that there are good people in both countries that benefit from Emacs?

On Mon, Feb 28, 2022, at 8:22 AM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor wrote:
> I don't know if the Ukrainian army is really fighting back or
> not, and the invasion sure didn't look the way we expected,
> but that doesn't make it any less an invasion.
> 
> And moreover, so what? No matter how clever a scheme this
> turns out to be it is still wrong ...
> 
> RUSSIA'S WAR IS WRONG!
> 
> PS. This sure doesn't happen every day BTW. The major FOSS
>     bodies should absolutely say something, just anything
>     really with the position they/we are opposed to it!
> 
> -- 
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
> 
> 
> 

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 12-a horo kaj 46:56 CET Jacob Hrbek a écrit :
>  > This list is not for promotion of proprietary software.
> 
> One thing is promotion of proprietary software the other is the
> promotion of freedom for which we dedicated our effort to do

since the matter (software freedom) is complex, you can do both at the same time

> It can _NOT_ be called a Free Software and Free Hardware Designs if it's
> used to circumvent the Freedom for 43 _MILLION_ people (that's 43 000
> 000 people!) by violence, war crimes and death.

It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this happening (like a specific 
example of a software used by putin’s army).

If freedom of circulation was used to help a soldier, would you stop calling that freedom of 
circulation? same for freedom of speech? freedom of belief? etc. etc. etc.

You cannot unilaterally decide words have no meaning anymore, or your arbitrary one, on 
the mere basis oppression exists somewhere.

> What i argue for is to enforce the values on which we found Free
> Software

Free Software still is full of communists, with many important people being procapitalism 
socdems, and an overrepresentation even among neonazis: the movement is politically 
very diverse, and the values are difficult to widden further.  To me, for instance, the link to 
anarchocommunism is obvious, but i’m also in the best position to observe it’s not to most: 
otherwise you wouldn’t disagree.

So that’s useless.

You are arguing for the same discursive diversion Ethical Licenses have, on the ground it is 
fair to use oppression (given by the modern power that modern copyright, elitism and 
technological opacity enables) to fight oppression.  I swear this is the EXACT same mindset 
that is enabling russian soldiers to believe they’re fighting for freedom right now in 
ukraine.

> instead of being ignorant and dedicating more resources in this
> namely the second part that majority of Free Software advocates and
> developers comfortably prefer to not exist:
> 
>   * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
> help your neighbour_
> 
> How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here?

Since neighboors are numerous and politically diverse, it is obvious in case of conflict 
helping one neighboor is harming another, and vice versa, harming a neighboor is helping 
another.  The freedom shall be guaranteed to avoid oppression using computers. Typically 
the ones against which free software protects: the oppression of some programmer and or 
their boss, over users.  And you are advocating to abandon that fight, and to increase that 
oppression, in order to fight another oppression.  Naively thinking that won’t last further, 
be pushed further, or be used back against you.

> We are
> enabling this violent war criminal who wages the war on freedom with the
> threat of a nuclear missiles on the European Union member countries and
> invasion of finland and swed
> en to kill us and our neighbours and worse
> in my case my slav brothers and sisters.

I am really, really, deeply sorry, we are in the same shit rn.  I try to keep calm by thinking 
of it like an abscess we have to burn out at some point.  Putin always have been a threat 
anyway.  Some solution have to be found.

Unfortunately, nobody in this list has a solution.  Even your propositions are dummy, 
inefficient, and misdirected (you were suggesting to remove freedoms of the people 
oppressed by the same oppressor, and among the most numerous one to protest against 
him).

> Each minute that we hesitate on the subject is a minute of resources
> that we gift to russia to continue in this by maintaining their
> technological infrastructure.

you should know that most of free software is used through distributions that, even with a 
rolling release cycle, would be too slow to act before a such war end.

moreover, whatever we do, the past versions of our software are already archived on all 
the planet (because of caches, local mirrors, etc. including in all russia), so whatever we 
do, it will be as limited as the amount of progress we can do during the war… so very 
limited.

moreover, like several said: copyright is not effective against a state (and russia is known 
not to respect it already), and landwise censorship to be ineffective over the internet.

therefore, you have no proposition.  it is unfortunate, but your work and its possibilities 
have little to do or relate to this war.  if you want to change something, gather material 
help.  but i think you should first seek for emotional support among the people closest to 
you, as the most calm, the most efficient you will be.

>  > Condemning citizens of single country for what their political
> 
> leaders do is wrong.
> 
> I am not condemning, i even praised my brothers and sisters in russia
> who take a huge risks to oppose putin by staging mass protests across
> russian federation as "The Heroes of
> Russia"[https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107875192175864676] multiple times and
> i do whatever i can to support them.

no, you advocated and stated you would ban them from your software, how is that 
support?

I really wish you everything good that can happen to you, may you be strong…

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 14-a horo kaj 35:43 CET Emanuel Berg via 
Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor a écrit :
> Christopher Dimech wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the
> > topic. We do not see how words and declarations can make
> > real difference in the matter.
> 
> They can, in the short and long run.

how? explain

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Alexandre Garreau wrote:

>>> Dear friends, it has been agreed to stop discussing the
>>> topic. We do not see how words and declarations can make
>>> real difference in the matter.
>>
>> They can, in the short and long run.
>
> how? explain

It works like that, ideas.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this 
happening (like a specific example of a software used by putin’s army). 
-- Garreau

Putin literally has linux on his PC and russia _runs_ on linux

 > I am really, really, deeply sorry, we are in the same shit rn.  I try 
to keep calm by thinking of it like an abscess we have to burn out at 
some point.  Putin always have been a threat anyway.  Some solution have 
to be found.

 > Unfortunately, nobody in this list has a solution.  Even your 
propositions are dummy, inefficient, and misdirected (you were 
suggesting to remove freedoms of the people oppressed by the same 
oppressor, and among the most numerous one to protest against him). -- 
Garreau

I proposed asking yourself an ethical question whether releasing your 
work could be used as a major enabler in russian military, if yes then 
take appropriate steps to either de-weaponize it or impose appropriate 
restrictions to make the software not accessible to them or not as 
harmful and i proposed integrating a VPN for FSF associate members for 
FSF to moderate and move our sensitive projects on it.

Note that those are projected to be a _TEMPORARY_ measures so i would 
even go as far to implement malware that triggers when RU IP is assigned 
to the system.

On 2/28/22 14:50, Alexandre Garreau wrote:
>
> It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this 
> happening (like a specific example of a software used by putin’s army).
>
-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

> Putin literally has linux on his PC and russia _runs_ on linux

Well, in 2019 he used Windows XP on an official photo:

https://www.extremetech.com/computing/303628-russian-president-vladimir-putin-still-uses-windows-xp

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[emacsq via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

But of course in reality he doesn't use any computer. He has people to do such stuff for him.

> Putin literally has linux on his PC and russia _runs_ on linux

> Well, in 2019 he used Windows XP on an official photo:
>
> https://www.extremetech.com/computing/303628-russian-president-vladimir-putin-still-uses-windows-xp

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Alexandre Garreau]

Le lundo, 28-a de februaro 2022, 16-a horo kaj 10:57 CET Jacob Hrbek a écrit :
>  > It can, and it would, but nobody have shown any example of this 
> 
> happening (like a specific example of a software used by putin’s army).
> -- Garreau
> 
> Putin literally has linux on his PC and russia _runs_ on linux

That’s unspecific.  If it wasn’t Linux it could be kOpenBSD, kFreeBSD, kNetBSD, Mach, 
whole XNU, NT or Flushia.  It doesn’t change a shit.  And Linux is well known to most often 
be proprietary and for its developer to care little about copyleft and freedom, only about 
efficient development methods.

Now it looks like you are suggesting every software developer, says Linux’s ones, 
implement a surveillance system that asks to each user to identify themselves (for 
instance on the basis of citizenship) in order to use the software.  Some sort of DRM.  And 
you somewhat hope naively it won’t be then used back to do the same kind of oppression 
Putin is doing on Ukraine (if that surveillance system is controlled by US, it would have 
been Iraq, if China, Taiwan, if France, Niger, if Russia, Finland (hell, Linus’ originating 
country), etc. etc.).

Are you really naive enough to think any kind of oppression, control, power is incorruptible?

If it was Czechia, do you think it would be safe against putin’s army materially breakin’ in 
there, cracking it, and using it in their own favor?

Then the US would want to avoid that, and would invade Czechia (at least digitally), just as 
they recently convinced Slovakia to give up on their sovereignty in front of Russia’s threat, 
or like they have shown to illegally store nuclear weapons on antinuclear germany, hidding 
that from its citizens.

Don’t ceade to emotion and fear as you’ll end up more fragile for defending freedom(

>  > I am really, really, deeply sorry, we are in the same shit rn.  I try
>  > 
> 
> to keep calm by thinking of it like an abscess we have to burn out at 
> some point.  Putin always have been a threat anyway.  Some solution have
> 
 to be found.
> 
> 
>  > Unfortunately, nobody in this list has a solution.  Even your 
> 
> propositions are dummy, inefficient, and misdirected (you were 
> suggesting to remove freedoms of the people oppressed by the same 
> oppressor, and among the most numerous one to protest against him). -- 
> Garreau
> 
> I proposed asking yourself an ethical question whether releasing your 
> work could be used as a major enabler in russian military,

Yes it could.  And if I make food, and sell it, it could be reselled to russians.  That’s no 
reason to, say, engineer a selective bacteria that would pretendously only target russian 
DNA, put it in food, and write on it «not for russians!!!».  That would be very stupid and 
would do more harms to humans in general and russian resistance against putin that to the 
russian military (that has access to all the other food anyway).

The only narrative I can see to support that is both the one that ignores that DRM is both 
ineffective and elitistly ends up always turning back against the general public (but some 
crackers), and the narrative that if something just is needed, the whole world will gather 
together in favor of it (no, you cannot trust the whole world to act in a single direction 
coordinately, it never happens that way but in US movies).

> if yes then 
> take appropriate steps to either de-weaponize it

Do you write weapons? because your stance and speaking point really puzzles me, why 
worrying about that? what are your works that could be used against ukrainians?

Also it looks like DRM.

> or impose appropriate
> restrictions to make the software not accessible to them

You mean censorship.  Ok that’s slightly less uneffective, but still is.  Russians already are 
used to avoid their own govt’s censorship, they’d avoid most easily yours.  How would you 
do that??

> or not as
> harmful and i proposed integrating a VPN for FSF associate members for
> FSF to moderate and move our sensitive projects on it.

Why?

> Note that those are projected to be a _TEMPORARY_ measures so i would 
> even go as far to implement malware that triggers when RU IP is assigned
> to the system.

In the end you would harm more antiputin ppl than proputin one, so by defending 
oppression (in general, for the sake of liberation), and attacking freedom, you would in the 
end… defend oppression (russian’s one) and attacking freedom (including of ukrainians).

You seem to be under the effect of so strong emotion that the subliminal narrative of 
oppression grows in your mind so much that it can bypass reason and turns back against 
yourself.  Please hold a minute and reflect a bit about actual consequences.

That’s sad but sometimes we are helpless.  It happens.  Even dosomethingite and running 
in the wrong direction won’t help.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > >   * Freedom 2: The freedom to /redistribute/ and make copies _so you can
  > > help your neighbour_
  > > 
  > > How can you even argue that we are helping our neighbour here?

Many years ago I used to say "help your neighbor" in freedom 2.  But
then I realized that the freedom to share software must not be limited
to people who are your neighbors.  Our community includes lots of
people we don't know, and that don't live near us.  Freedom 2 must
include more than just our neighbors.  It must include everyone.

So I switched to saying that freedom to is to help _others_.

Is there any place on gnu.org which still says "your neighbor"?
If so, please report it to webmasters@gnu.org so it can be updated.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

The list help-gnu-emacs is meant for asking for help on GNU Emacs.
This isn't the right place to discuss other issues, even other free
software issues -- much less global political issues such as Putin's
war against Ukraine.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Richard Stallman wrote:

> The list help-gnu-emacs is meant for asking for help on GNU
> Emacs. This isn't the right place to discuss other issues,
> even other free software issues -- much less global
> political issues such as Putin's war against Ukraine.

OK, but have the FOSS bodies been getting together offering
a joint statement perhaps or something to the extent of
speaking up against this aggression which whatever political
mumbo-jumbo one can put together will still amount to
immeasurable human suffering?

The whole world is trying to isolate Putin, so we should to.
And if one can't do that in a clever way that actually gets to
the regime, which admittedly is very difficult to do, then
just say it is wrong. That is not meaningless, it is part of
the power of ideas.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "EBvUlftGEte" == Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> writes:

> Jacob Hrbek wrote:
>>> FOSS people saying somewhere no to war?
>> 
>> I do and I've made a statement on that in
>> https://qoto.org/@kreyren/107851975317924221 in short taking steps to
>> reduce russian access to my software and hardware by revoking the right
>> to use, study, improve and distribute + considering to take identity
>> verification and vetting for sensitive projects such as open-source
>> aircraft that could be used as a drone.

> Hm ...

> I say just war is wrong.

There is a difference between a war of aggression as it has been clearly the case here and other forms of war. 

So a general statement against war obscure this fact!!!1



I strongly condem Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.
I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military. 
I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.
I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.
https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

> I strongly condemn Putin's war of agression against the Ukraine.
> I support to deliver weapons to Ukraine’s military.
> I support the ban of Russia from SWIFT.
> I support the EU membership of the Ukraine.

All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."  Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there.  It is only ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Uwe Brauer wrote:

> There is a difference between a war of aggression as it has
> been clearly the case here and other forms of war.
>
> So a general statement against war obscure this fact

Of course, the statement should reflect what is happening
and be tailored to that. One would be careful about every
word. But it is still pretty easy to do, two or three
paragraphs would be enough, I think. It is not a PhD thesis
analyzing the war or anything like that.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

goncholden wrote:

> All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.

The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
any way and everywhere they can.

If we're not it's a shame.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------

On Tuesday, March 1st, 2022 at 10:45 PM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

> goncholden wrote:
>
> > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
> The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
> any way and everywhere they can.

> If we're not it's a shame.

The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent.  All this is about people wanting to feel good about themselves, rather than anything else.  If you were there right now preaching your thought, you would be shot in the brain immediately.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

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>>> "g" == goncholden  <goncholden@protonmail.com> writes:

> ------- Original Message -------

> On Tuesday, March 1st, 2022 at 10:45 PM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

>> goncholden wrote:
>> 
>> > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
>> > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
>> > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
>> > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
>> > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.

>> The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
>> The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
>> any way and everywhere they can.

>> If we're not it's a shame.

> The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent. All this is about
> people wanting to feel good about themselves, rather than anything
> else. If you were there right now preaching your thought, you would be
> shot in the brain immediately.

There is this link if you want to do something about it.

https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

> > > > "g" == goncholden goncholden@protonmail.com writes:
>
> > ------- Original Message -------
>
> > On Tuesday, March 1st, 2022 at 10:45 PM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org wrote:
>
> > > goncholden wrote:
> > >
> > > > All this talk is simply pompous absurdity that is hardly
> > > >
> > > > noticed. As Reagan tagged the Soviets the "Evil Empire."
> > > >
> > > > Westerners are almost surely to form part of the escaping
> > > >
> > > > cohort at any sign of trouble if they were there. It is only
> > > >
> > > > ukranian men that should get the honour of endless toasts.
>
> > > The FOSS bodies should say Russia's war is wrong.
> > >
> > > The whole world tries to isolate Russia and raise awareness
> > >
> > > any way and everywhere they can.
>
> > > If we're not it's a shame.
>
> > The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent. All this is about
> >
> > people wanting to feel good about themselves, rather than anything
> >
> > else. If you were there right now preaching your thought, you would be
> >
> > shot in the brain immediately.
>
> There is this link if you want to do something about it.

Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering the state.  Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.  Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.

> https://how-to-help-ukraine-now.super.site/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Uwe Brauer]

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> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

> ------- Original Message -------

> On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:


> Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering
> the state. Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.
> Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.

Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is very easy
sitting 4000 km away from the problem and making comments.

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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 1:12 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:

> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> > ------- Original Message -------
>
> > On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer oub@mat.ucm.es wrote:
>
> > Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering
> >
> > the state. Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.
> >
> > Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.
>
> Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is very easy
>
> sitting 4000 km away from the problem and making comments.

It is only the russians that can solve this, as the Czechs and Slovaks did back in 1989.  Just took ten days for the Communist Party of Czechoslovakia to disappear.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

goncholden wrote:

> The awareness is there, but we are mostly impotent. All this
> is about people wanting to feel good about themselves,
> rather than anything else.

That's not the position taken by FIFA, F1, World Taekwondo [1]
and many, many other bodies and organizations and associations
that also are not political but still joining in on the
strategy to make Russia feel its isolation everywhere and to
reach out and raise awareness among people - maybe in
particular among Russian people who are either still under the
spell of the propaganda, or pretends to be ...

Man, I'm not gonna explain this if you don't understand it.
It's the world strategy anyway.

Don't treat this as the election of the local mayor. It's an
all-out war of aggression. How it has "always been"
doesn't apply. Think!

> If you were there right now preaching your thought, you
> would be shot in the brain immediately.

This is 2003 all over, if you still don't understand it do
yourself a favor and don't speak out against it.

[1] https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/live-blog/russia-ukraine-war-live-updates-n1290293/ncrd1290323

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------
On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 1:12 AM, Uwe Brauer <oub@mat.ucm.es> wrote:
> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > ------- Original Message -------
> > On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 12:37 AM, Uwe Brauer oub@mat.ucm.es wrote:

> > Many russians I know simply go on with their business without angering
> > the state. Like many of us here not wanting to anger our employers.
> > Putin just organised it to a disastrous result.

> Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is very easy
> sitting 4000 km away from the problem and making comments.

Am not criticising you.  Just stating how things are.  One can make comments
and have all the good intentions in the world.  I just find westerners naive.
As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for conceding some
territories - also naive.  Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many
bombers - and gave them all up thinking that such actions would ensure its
future security.

Nations that sacrifice their nuclear deterrents in exchange for promises of
international goodwill are often signing their own death warrants. In a world
bristling with weapons with the potential to end human civilization, nonproliferation
itself is a morally worthwhile and even necessary goal. But the experience of
countries that actually have disarmed is likely to lead more of them to conclude
otherwise in future.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Uwe Brauer wrote:

>> Many russians I know simply go on with their business
>> without angering the state. Like many of us here not
>> wanting to anger our employers. Putin just organised it to
>> a disastrous result.
>
> Yes, I can only imagine and I also know that for me it is
> very easy sitting 4000 km away from the problem and
> making comments.

Not easy enough, I have not seen the FOSS world issue or
publish any statement anywhere?

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

goncholden wrote:

> Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can
> make comments and have all the good intentions in the world.
> I just find westerners naive.

Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force
comparable to Russia's ...

But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in
any way!

We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that.

> As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for
> conceding some territories - also naive.

Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ...

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Jacob Hrbek]

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 > I just find westerners naive. As is saying that peace will be 
established in exchange for conceding some territories - also naive.  
Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many bombers - and gave them 
all up thinking that such actions would ensure its future security.

Ukraine was mostly forced to concede it's nuclear weapons in exchange 
for it's territorial integrity and sovereignty in 1991 this deal was 
done by Leonid Kravchuk (first president of ukraine who was strongly 
pro-russian and anti-western as evident by his affiliation with Dynamo 
Group and political affiliations) with the soviet union (now russia).

Calling this "western naivity" is historically flawed.

---

Nothing is perfect thus why it's important to maintain it, improve it 
over time and enable everyone to join on the effort.

The European Union is not going to concede any territory and will defend 
every inch of it.

On 3/1/22 15:34, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text 
editor wrote:
> goncholden wrote:
>
>> Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can
>> make comments and have all the good intentions in the world.
>> I just find westerners naive.
> Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force
> comparable to Russia's ...
>
> But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in
> any way!
>
> We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that.
>
>> As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for
>> conceding some territories - also naive.
> Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ...
>
> --
> underground experts united
> https://dataswamp.org/~incal
>
>
-- 
Jacob Hrbek, In support of ukraine sovereignty #supportUkraine


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Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 2:52 AM, Jacob Hrbek <kreyren@rixotstudio.cz> wrote:

> > I just find westerners naive. As is saying that peace will be
>
> established in exchange for conceding some territories - also naive. 
>
> Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many bombers - and gave them
>
> all up thinking that such actions would ensure its future security.
>
> Ukraine was mostly forced to concede it's nuclear weapons in exchange
>
> for it's territorial integrity and sovereignty in 1991 this deal was
>
> done by Leonid Kravchuk (first president of ukraine who was strongly
>
> pro-russian and anti-western as evident by his affiliation with Dynamo
>
> Group and political affiliations) with the soviet union (now russia).
>
> Calling this "western naivity" is historically flawed.
>
> ---
>
> Nothing is perfect thus why it's important to maintain it, improve it
>
> over time and enable everyone to join on the effort.
>
> The European Union is not going to concede any territory and will defend
> every inch of it.

NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine.  Yet the 30-member bloc is
unwilling to acknowledge this truth.  By western naivity, I meant the general
naivity of citizens about their governments.

> On 3/1/22 15:34, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text
>
> editor wrote:
>
> > goncholden wrote:
> >
> > > Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can
> > > make comments and have all the good intentions in the world.
> > > I just find westerners naive.
> > >
> > > Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force
> > > comparable to Russia's ...

> > But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in
> > any way!

> > We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that.

> > > As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for
> > > conceding some territories - also naive.

> > > Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ...

What we are seeing are more borders these days.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 5:09 AM, Humberto Freitas <humberto.freitas310@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey guys,
>
> > The whole world is trying to isolate Putin, so we should to.
>
> Are you sure? So should we isolate Americans for all the bad things and wars they, the government, does throughout all the world??? Hum 🧐
>
> We should not take sides on this one…

We can but the Gnu Project is not.

> Russians are not the enemy. As it happens always, governments have their agendas despite what their people think or do.
>
> This is just politics, nothing else…
>
> Atentamente,
>
> Humberto Freitas
>
> Telemóvel: +244 944 775 334
>
> Email: humberto.freitas310@gmail.com
>
> Angola
>
> ”Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” The Foundation by Isaac Asimov
>
> (Violência é o último refúgio do incompetente)
>
> In support of Richard M. Stallman
>
> https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Humberto Freitas]

Hey guys,

> The whole world is trying to isolate Putin, so we should to.
Are you sure? So should we isolate Americans for all the bad things and wars they, the government, does throughout all the world??? Hum 🧐 

We should not take sides on this one… 

Russians are not the enemy. As it happens always, governments have their agendas despite what their people think or do. 

This is just politics, nothing else… 

Atentamente,

Humberto Freitas

Telemóvel: +244 944 775 334
Email: humberto.freitas310@gmail.com
Angola
”Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent.” The Foundation by Isaac Asimov
(Violência é o último refúgio do incompetente)

In support of Richard M. Stallman
https://stallmansupport.org/

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

Humberto Freitas wrote:

>> The whole world is trying to isolate Putin, so we
>> should to.
>
> Are you sure?

100%

> So should we isolate Americans for all the bad things and
> wars they, the government, does throughout all the world???

In 2003 (attack on Iraq) there was a huge anti-war movement,
just like there was before that in the 1968~1975 period (war
in Vietnam).

So yes, if the US - or anyone else - heads for something
similar everyone who is opposed to that should protest in
whatever small or big ways they are capable of mustering from
their position and POV in society.

Just like the response to this atrocity will send a signal to
everyone in the future who will ever entertain such ideas!

The FOSS world should say clearly and officially that the
concept and ideals of free software are 100% incompatible with
wars of aggression! Does Not Compute!

We are AGAINST this war! No excuses!

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[goncholden]

------- Original Message -------

On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 7:33 AM, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor <help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org> wrote:

> Humberto Freitas wrote:
>
> > > The whole world is trying to isolate Putin, so we
> > > should to.
> >
> > Are you sure?
>
> 100%
>
> > So should we isolate Americans for all the bad things and
> >
> > wars they, the government, does throughout all the world???
>
> In 2003 (attack on Iraq) there was a huge anti-war movement,
>
> just like there was before that in the 1968~1975 period (war
>
> in Vietnam).
>
> So yes, if the US - or anyone else - heads for something
>
> similar everyone who is opposed to that should protest in
>
> whatever small or big ways they are capable of mustering from
>
> their position and POV in society.
>
> Just like the response to this atrocity will send a signal to
> everyone in the future who will ever entertain such ideas!
> The FOSS world should say clearly and officially that the
> concept and ideals of free software are 100% incompatible with
> wars of aggression! Does Not Compute!

> We are AGAINST this war! No excuses!

Freedom 0 : To use the software for any purpose.

Re: no to war in Ukraine

[Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor]

goncholden wrote:

>> Just like the response to this atrocity will send a signal
>> to everyone in the future who will ever entertain such
>> ideas! The FOSS world should say clearly and officially
>> that the concept and ideals of free software are 100%
>> incompatible with wars of aggression! Does Not Compute!
>>
>> We are AGAINST this war! No excuses!
>
> Freedom 0 : To use the software for any purpose.

Ridiculous.

-- 
underground experts united
https://dataswamp.org/~incal