From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: goncholden Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.help Subject: Re: no to war in Ukraine Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2022 15:29:04 +0000 Message-ID: References: <87ee3p4xn4.fsf@zoho.eu> <875yoyymr8.fsf@zoho.eu> <87k0ddvofo.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <878rttvmtt.fsf@mat.ucm.es> <87bkypyc5j.fsf@zoho.eu> <5fa3d9eb-0912-2243-829c-53595c73b517@rixotstudio.cz> Reply-To: goncholden Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Injection-Info: ciao.gmane.io; posting-host="blaine.gmane.org:116.202.254.214"; logging-data="11089"; mail-complaints-to="usenet@ciao.gmane.io" Cc: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org To: Jacob Hrbek Original-X-From: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Tue Mar 01 16:29:39 2022 Return-path: Envelope-to: geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([209.51.188.17]) by ciao.gmane.io with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.92) (envelope-from ) id 1nP4RW-0002ew-OF for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 16:29:38 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:33062 helo=lists1p.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP4RV-0007UT-Mw for geh-help-gnu-emacs@m.gmane-mx.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 10:29:37 -0500 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([209.51.188.92]:38468) by lists.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP4R4-0007UI-L7 for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 10:29:10 -0500 Original-Received: from mail-40138.protonmail.ch ([185.70.40.138]:59243) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.2:ECDHE_RSA_AES_256_GCM_SHA384:256) (Exim 4.90_1) (envelope-from ) id 1nP4R2-0007ti-7c for help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 01 Mar 2022 10:29:10 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=protonmail.com; s=protonmail3; t=1646148545; bh=1KQvrFKjglYz5eQQ3speD4A74F9nQymE+buB0QJsgtU=; h=Date:To:From:Cc:Reply-To:Subject:Message-ID:In-Reply-To: References:From:To:Cc:Date:Subject:Reply-To:Feedback-ID: Message-ID; b=EVhPJ+7utZWD/X6YXAXaJSEj420uDq0oKaigLqUEszk2KeaxBvdhsHw74BjvC/jXY JOwJLPMiZwUfqE/+XlYRZhJdvq8Oh4cA2hdCDiAl3yk1yZebde27gS65/u8KRdyJYd 0JMm2LzjI10B8sQc2zPbnzuBrZI7ex94RybpOvvh7/+3h2REgquHPzZjKuAqPx4d4W fShZzFqEPt14GbHVFITcvwqF9jy/4cld+MHoeVHwWqAQ4jkpgTL4jmAEtJ+0Bn0ghC qwZSp6umcGPvNKVgqRSqNImtAY1/TJHkHRORmGjziknVJGEfs9aS2JBBVcx1ltHfZS e6RgAjNZBH8OA== In-Reply-To: <5fa3d9eb-0912-2243-829c-53595c73b517@rixotstudio.cz> Received-SPF: pass client-ip=185.70.40.138; envelope-from=goncholden@protonmail.com; helo=mail-40138.protonmail.ch X-Spam_score_int: -20 X-Spam_score: -2.1 X-Spam_bar: -- X-Spam_report: (-2.1 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, SPF_HELO_PASS=-0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001, T_SCC_BODY_TEXT_LINE=-0.01 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: help-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.29 Precedence: list List-Id: Users list for the GNU Emacs text editor List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: help-gnu-emacs-bounces+geh-help-gnu-emacs=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "help-gnu-emacs" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.help:136316 Archived-At: ------- Original Message ------- On Wednesday, March 2nd, 2022 at 2:52 AM, Jacob Hrbek wrote: > > I just find westerners naive. As is saying that peace will be > > established in exchange for conceding some territories - also naive.= =C2=A0 > > Ukraine held a third of nuclear weapons and many bombers - and gave them > > all up thinking that such actions would ensure its future security. > > Ukraine was mostly forced to concede it's nuclear weapons in exchange > > for it's territorial integrity and sovereignty in 1991 this deal was > > done by Leonid Kravchuk (first president of ukraine who was strongly > > pro-russian and anti-western as evident by his affiliation with Dynamo > > Group and political affiliations) with the soviet union (now russia). > > Calling this "western naivity" is historically flawed. > > --- > > Nothing is perfect thus why it's important to maintain it, improve it > > over time and enable everyone to join on the effort. > > The European Union is not going to concede any territory and will defend > every inch of it. NATO is likely not to fight Russia over Ukraine. Yet the 30-member bloc is unwilling to acknowledge this truth. By western naivity, I meant the gener= al naivity of citizens about their governments. > On 3/1/22 15:34, Emanuel Berg via Users list for the GNU Emacs text > > editor wrote: > > > goncholden wrote: > > > > > Am not criticising you. Just stating how things are. One can > > > make comments and have all the good intentions in the world. > > > I just find westerners naive. > > > > > > Eh, we westerners are the only ones who have a force > > > comparable to Russia's ... > > But no one is saying NATO or even Ukraine is perfect in > > any way! > > We focus on this war in particular, it's as simple as that. > > > As is saying that peace will be established in exchange for > > > conceding some territories - also naive. > > > Well, you said it so you describe yourself I take it ... What we are seeing are more borders these days.