Gender neutral documentation

Gender neutral documentation

[Wilson Bustos]

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Hello everyone!
I would like to help to make guix packages,
I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.

But I have some questions.
1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral'
documentation.
and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?

2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages like
this one:
https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00edsticas

Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sentence.
LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con privilegios
de usuaria normal*.`

which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is only used to
refer to a woman.
but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman.
Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to this I
change to the english manual.

I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and help,
I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a flame war
or something like that.

I just want to know If the example that I give is product of a 'gender
neutral' documentation rule or just was a mistake.

Thank you so much for your help with this.
Regards!

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Re: Gender neutral documentation

[Miguel]

El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com> escribió:
>Hello everyone!
>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
>
>But I have some questions.
>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral'
>documentation.
>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
>

The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is intended as explained here: https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40

>2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages
>like
>this one:
>https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00edsticas
>
>Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sentence.
>LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con
>privilegios
>de usuaria normal*.`
>
>which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is only used
>to
>refer to a woman.
>but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman.

As written in the footnote, It's perfectly reasonable to say in Spanish "la persona" and "las personas" (person/people in English), whose grammatical gender is feminine, to refer anyone without making any reference to their preferred gender, so it should be any problem to use that grammatical gender instead of the usual "neutral" one. From Latin's neutral case we have words like "el/la estudiante", "el/la marchante [de arte]", but the selection of the masculine as the default/neutral form is arguably biased towards one end. 

>Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to
>this I
>change to the english manual.

I understand that it can be tiresome, specially if you've been socialized as a male as I've been. On the other hand, more than a half of the Spanish speakers don't have to make any effort in order to understand it. I suppose that the same effort probably have been the done (usually beforehand) by people socialized as females when they read a document claiming (implicitly, as any language construct) that "usuario" applies to them too, but I only have anecdotical evidence... and the fact that women are really underrepresented (at least) in the development and free software community, so I try to take a feminist stance as my grain of sand to move this actual mountain.

>I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and
>help,
>I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a flame
>war
>or something like that.

My approach is far from perfect: there are people who don't identify neither as male nor female, so the dissonance is still there, but I'm open to any new idea but using male gender as neutral one for the reasons I exposed there and here.

Personally, I think it needs to be openly talked, it shouldn't be a flame war each time somebody mentions it. The conflict is already there, not speaking "about the elephant" doesn't make it disappear and only delays the possible solutions.

Best regards,
Miguel
Hello, Wilson!

Thank you for your interest in this awesome community. From my side, I've been taking more than expected to finish the translation and send some other patches, sorry for that. I hope to do it soon, but I only can answer with my phone at this moment.

I'll try to answer your questions inline, let's see...

Re: Gender neutral documentation

[Wilson Bustos]

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El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com>
escribió:
>>Hello everyone!
>>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
>>
>>But I have some questions.
>>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral'
>>documentation.
>>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
>>

> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is
intended as explained here:
https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40

Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question!

My other question is:
Are you the only person who translate in Spanish?

- If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first?
I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind the neo
Spanish rules that you apply,

- This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for the
main documentation?


El mar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 19:34, Miguel (<rosen644835@gmail.com>)
escribió:

> El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com>
> escribió:
> >Hello everyone!
> >I would like to help to make guix packages,
> >I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
> >
> >But I have some questions.
> >1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral'
> >documentation.
> >and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
> >
>
> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is
> intended as explained here:
> https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40
>
> >2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages
> >like
> >this one:
> >
> https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00edsticas
> >
> >Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sentence.
> >LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con
> >privilegios
> >de usuaria normal*.`
> >
> >which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is only used
> >to
> >refer to a woman.
> >but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman.
>
> As written in the footnote, It's perfectly reasonable to say in Spanish
> "la persona" and "las personas" (person/people in English), whose
> grammatical gender is feminine, to refer anyone without making any
> reference to their preferred gender, so it should be any problem to use
> that grammatical gender instead of the usual "neutral" one. From Latin's
> neutral case we have words like "el/la estudiante", "el/la marchante [de
> arte]", but the selection of the masculine as the default/neutral form is
> arguably biased towards one end.
>
> >Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to
> >this I
> >change to the english manual.
>
> I understand that it can be tiresome, specially if you've been socialized
> as a male as I've been. On the other hand, more than a half of the Spanish
> speakers don't have to make any effort in order to understand it. I suppose
> that the same effort probably have been the done (usually beforehand) by
> people socialized as females when they read a document claiming
> (implicitly, as any language construct) that "usuario" applies to them too,
> but I only have anecdotical evidence... and the fact that women are really
> underrepresented (at least) in the development and free software community,
> so I try to take a feminist stance as my grain of sand to move this actual
> mountain.
>
> >I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and
> >help,
> >I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a flame
> >war
> >or something like that.
>
> My approach is far from perfect: there are people who don't identify
> neither as male nor female, so the dissonance is still there, but I'm open
> to any new idea but using male gender as neutral one for the reasons I
> exposed there and here.
>
> Personally, I think it needs to be openly talked, it shouldn't be a flame
> war each time somebody mentions it. The conflict is already there, not
> speaking "about the elephant" doesn't make it disappear and only delays the
> possible solutions.
>
> Best regards,
> Miguel
> Hello, Wilson!
>
> Thank you for your interest in this awesome community. From my side, I've
> been taking more than expected to finish the translation and send some
> other patches, sorry for that. I hope to do it soon, but I only can answer
> with my phone at this moment.
>
> I'll try to answer your questions inline, let's see...
>

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Re: Gender neutral documentation

[Miguel]

Hi!

El July 30, 2019 11:53:26 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com> escribió:
>El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com>
>escribió:
>>>Hello everyone!
>>>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
>>>
>>>But I have some questions.
>>>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender
>neutral'
>>>documentation.
>>>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
>>>
>
>> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation
>is
>intended as explained here:
>https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40
>
>Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question!

You're welcome.

>My other question is:
>Are you the only person who translate in Spanish?

Right now, yes. If you want to help, that'd make it two. :-)

>- If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first?

Well, actually https://translationproject.org is the real platform for the translation process, but we could define any workflow as needed, I think. We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp.org.es), if needed.

>I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind the
>neo
>Spanish rules that you apply,

They aren't rules, they're a synthesis of the intent behind my translations. I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where the feminine (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender. As I bend a little the conventional rules in the default case, I can understand the "neo" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close to the facts and far from that kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on topic.

>- This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for
>the
>main documentation?

As I said, they aren't rules, only the reason why I did that. I think that it's up to the community to make a decision, not me. Currently, the community decision is to use gender neutral language, but it'd be a nonsense make a decision about a language you don't speak, so this interpretation is at the end up to each language speakers community.

Any thought about gender neutrality in Spanish, everybody?

Best regards,
Miguel

Re: Gender neutral documentation

[Wilson Bustos]

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>> Right now, yes. If you want to help, that'd make it two. :-)
Ahh ok! I will

>> Well, actually https://translationproject.org is the real platform for
the translation process, but we could define any workflow as needed, I
think. We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp.org.es),
if needed.

Nice! I'm will check that

>> They aren't rules, they're a synthesis of the intent behind my
translations. I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where the
feminine (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender. As I
bend a little the conventional rules in the default case, I can understand
the "neo" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close to the facts and far
from that kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on topic.

Actually I didn't try to make a joke, I tried to describe the 'new spanish
rules' as that, because is not the 'conventional way' to text Spanish.
Just to be clear, I really appreciate your work and all that you have
translated so far even if I consider the 'new way' to text Spanish is not
correct, but its ok, Its more important have an Spanish version after all.
Then, I understand I should translate in the female (grammatical) spanish
(as a rule) to keep the all the documentation with the same logic.

If in the future someone consider is better modify it to 'traditional
spanish' they can update it I guess.

Regards!





El mar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 20:42, Miguel (<rosen644835@gmail.com>)
escribió:

> Hi!
>
> El July 30, 2019 11:53:26 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com>
> escribió:
> >El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com>
> >escribió:
> >>>Hello everyone!
> >>>I would like to help to make guix packages,
> >>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
> >>>
> >>>But I have some questions.
> >>>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender
> >neutral'
> >>>documentation.
> >>>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
> >>>
> >
> >> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation
> >is
> >intended as explained here:
> >https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40
> >
> >Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question!
>
> You're welcome.
>
> >My other question is:
> >Are you the only person who translate in Spanish?
>
> Right now, yes. If you want to help, that'd make it two. :-)
>
> >- If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first?
>
> Well, actually https://translationproject.org is the real platform for
> the translation process, but we could define any workflow as needed, I
> think. We can agree about that privately or on the tp list (es@tp.org.es),
> if needed.
>
> >I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind the
> >neo
> >Spanish rules that you apply,
>
> They aren't rules, they're a synthesis of the intent behind my
> translations. I've shown you an actual example of perfect Spanish where the
> feminine (grammatical) gender can be applied to any (social) gender. As I
> bend a little the conventional rules in the default case, I can understand
> the "neo" as an misplaced joke, but I'd stay close to the facts and far
> from that kind of modifiers to keep the conversation on topic.
>
> >- This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for
> >the
> >main documentation?
>
> As I said, they aren't rules, only the reason why I did that. I think that
> it's up to the community to make a decision, not me. Currently, the
> community decision is to use gender neutral language, but it'd be a
> nonsense make a decision about a language you don't speak, so this
> interpretation is at the end up to each language speakers community.
>
> Any thought about gender neutrality in Spanish, everybody?
>
> Best regards,
> Miguel
>

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Re: Gender neutral documentation

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello,

Miguel <rosen644835@gmail.com> skribis:

> As I said, they aren't rules, only the reason why I did that. I think that it's up to the community to make a decision, not me. Currently, the community decision is to use gender neutral language, but it'd be a nonsense make a decision about a language you don't speak, so this interpretation is at the end up to each language speakers community.
>
> Any thought about gender neutrality in Spanish, everybody?

Latin languages are pretty bad at that.  In Spanish, people sometimes
replace the “a” and “o” suffixes (which denote feminine and masculine)
with “@” or with “e”.

That would be another option, but it’s up to you translators to find the
most appropriate way to address the issue, IMO (and this could change
over time).

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: Gender neutral documentation

[Laura Lazzati]

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Hi!
I would like to help in translating to Spanish if you need to :)

Latin languages are pretty bad at that.  In Spanish, people sometimes
> replace the “a” and “o” suffixes (which denote feminine and masculine)
> with “@” or with “e”.
>
Here we use "e" or "x" for gender neutrality (ie: les usuaries, or lxs
usuarixs for "the users", the reason of using an "e" is that you can
pronounce it, while @ or x not). However, nothing is approved by Real
Academia Española.

Regards :)
Laura

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