From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 From: Wilson Bustos Subject: Re: Gender neutral documentation Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:26 -0400 Message-ID: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708" Return-path: Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:470:142:3::10]:43561) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.86_2) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbw7-0005f6-9Y for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:45 -0400 Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbw3-0002aG-HY for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:41 -0400 Received: from mail-pl1-x62f.google.com ([2607:f8b0:4864:20::62f]:33538) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_128_CBC_SHA1:16) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1hsbw3-0002Yn-2t for guix-devel@gnu.org; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 19:53:39 -0400 Received: by mail-pl1-x62f.google.com with SMTP id c14so29484759plo.0 for ; Tue, 30 Jul 2019 16:53:39 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: List-Id: "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guix-devel-bounces+gcggd-guix-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sender: "Guix-devel" To: Miguel Cc: guix-devel@gnu.org --000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos escribi=C3=B3: >>Hello everyone! >>I would like to help to make guix packages, >I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this. >> >>But I have some questions. >>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral' >>documentation. >>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? >> > The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is intended as explained here: https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40 Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question! My other question is: Are you the only person who translate in Spanish? - If I help you with some parts have I to sent it to you first? I ask this because I'm not sure if I can apply all the logic behind the neo Spanish rules that you apply, - This rules are also to translate the package description? or only for the main documentation? El mar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 19:34, Miguel () escribi=C3=B3: > El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos > escribi=C3=B3: > >Hello everyone! > >I would like to help to make guix packages, > >I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this. > > > >But I have some questions. > >1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutral' > >documentation. > >and how that works in different languages such as Spanish? > > > > The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is > intended as explained here: > https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40 > > >2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages > >like > >this one: > > > https://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00= edsticas > > > >Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sentence. > >LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con > >privilegios > >de usuaria normal*.` > > > >which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is only used > >to > >refer to a woman. > >but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman. > > As written in the footnote, It's perfectly reasonable to say in Spanish > "la persona" and "las personas" (person/people in English), whose > grammatical gender is feminine, to refer anyone without making any > reference to their preferred gender, so it should be any problem to use > that grammatical gender instead of the usual "neutral" one. From Latin's > neutral case we have words like "el/la estudiante", "el/la marchante [de > arte]", but the selection of the masculine as the default/neutral form is > arguably biased towards one end. > > >Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to > >this I > >change to the english manual. > > I understand that it can be tiresome, specially if you've been socialized > as a male as I've been. On the other hand, more than a half of the Spanis= h > speakers don't have to make any effort in order to understand it. I suppo= se > that the same effort probably have been the done (usually beforehand) by > people socialized as females when they read a document claiming > (implicitly, as any language construct) that "usuario" applies to them to= o, > but I only have anecdotical evidence... and the fact that women are reall= y > underrepresented (at least) in the development and free software communit= y, > so I try to take a feminist stance as my grain of sand to move this actua= l > mountain. > > >I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and > >help, > >I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a flame > >war > >or something like that. > > My approach is far from perfect: there are people who don't identify > neither as male nor female, so the dissonance is still there, but I'm ope= n > to any new idea but using male gender as neutral one for the reasons I > exposed there and here. > > Personally, I think it needs to be openly talked, it shouldn't be a flame > war each time somebody mentions it. The conflict is already there, not > speaking "about the elephant" doesn't make it disappear and only delays t= he > possible solutions. > > Best regards, > Miguel > Hello, Wilson! > > Thank you for your interest in this awesome community. From my side, I've > been taking more than expected to finish the translation and send some > other patches, sorry for that. I hope to do it soon, but I only can answe= r > with my phone at this moment. > > I'll try to answer your questions inline, let's see... > --000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
El July 30, 2019 1= 0:10:21 PM UTC, Wilson Bustos <wrbutros@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:
>>Hello everyone!
>>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
<= span class=3D"gmail-im">>>
>>But I have some questions.
>>1- Do you have some document which = explain what means 'gender neutral'
>>documentation.
>>and how that works in different lan= guages such as Spanish?
>>

> The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation i= s intended as explained here: h= ttps://guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40
Thank you so much! that article resolve really well my question!=

My other question is:
Are you the only person w= ho translate in Spanish?

- If I help you with some parts = have I to sent it to you first?
I ask this because I'm no= t sure if I can apply all the logic behind the neo Spanish rules that you a= pply,

- This rules are also to translate the = package description? or only for the main documentation?


El m= ar., 30 jul. 2019 a las 19:34, Miguel (<rosen644835@gmail.com>) escribi=C3=B3:
El July 30, 2019 10:10:21 PM UTC, Wi= lson Bustos <wrb= utros@gmail.com> escribi=C3=B3:
>Hello everyone!
>I would like to help to make guix packages,
>I'm also reading documentation and watching videos about this.
>
>But I have some questions.
>1- Do you have some document which explain what means 'gender neutr= al'
>documentation.
>and how that works in different languages such as Spanish?
>

The use of the feminine gender as neutral in the Spanish translation is int= ended as explained here: https:= //guix.gnu.org/manual/es/html_node/Envio-de-parches.html#DOCF40

>2- Reading the the Spanish version of the GNU manual in several pages >like
>this one:
>https://guix.gn= u.org/manual/es/html_node/Caracteristicas.html#Caracter_00edsticas
>
>Has female sentence instead a 'normal' - 'neutral' sent= ence.
>LIKE: `Opera en los perfiles de usuaria, y puede ser usada *con
>privilegios
>de usuaria normal*.`
>
>which say 'usuaria' to refer to the user, but that words is onl= y used
>to
>refer to a woman.
>but 'usuario' can be used to refer to a man or woman.

As written in the footnote, It's perfectly reasonable to say in Spanish= "la persona" and "las personas" (person/people in Engl= ish), whose grammatical gender is feminine, to refer anyone without making = any reference to their preferred gender, so it should be any problem to use= that grammatical gender instead of the usual "neutral" one. From= Latin's neutral case we have words like "el/la estudiante", = "el/la marchante [de arte]", but the selection of the masculine a= s the default/neutral form is arguably biased towards one end.

>Using this all the time it becomes confusing to read for me, due to
>this I
>change to the english manual.

I understand that it can be tiresome, specially if you've been socializ= ed as a male as I've been. On the other hand, more than a half of the S= panish speakers don't have to make any effort in order to understand it= . I suppose that the same effort probably have been the done (usually befor= ehand) by people socialized as females when they read a document claiming (= implicitly, as any language construct) that "usuario" applies to = them too, but I only have anecdotical evidence... and the fact that women a= re really underrepresented (at least) in the development and free software = community, so I try to take a feminist stance as my grain of sand to move t= his actual mountain.

>I completely respect your job I want to be part of the community and >help,
>I know this is a really delicate topic and I don't want to make a f= lame
>war
>or something like that.

My approach is far from perfect: there are people who don't identify ne= ither as male nor female, so the dissonance is still there, but I'm ope= n to any new idea but using male gender as neutral one for the reasons I ex= posed there and here.

Personally, I think it needs to be openly talked, it shouldn't be a fla= me war each time somebody mentions it. The conflict is already there, not s= peaking "about the elephant" doesn't make it disappear and on= ly delays the possible solutions.

Best regards,
Miguel
Hello, Wilson!

Thank you for your interest in this awesome community. From my side, I'= ve been taking more than expected to finish the translation and send some o= ther patches, sorry for that. I hope to do it soon, but I only can answer w= ith my phone at this moment.

I'll try to answer your questions inline, let's see...
--000000000000a1e5fc058eeeb708--