A Forum for Guix Users

A Forum for Guix Users

[Sarthak Shah]

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Hey Guix,
I think we should seriously consider having a user forum similar to
Debian's User Forum or Nixos' Discourse.

As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their
problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very easy to
navigate compared to forum threads. Seeing the situation with RHEL, I think
now's the perfect time for us to acquire new HPC/stability-oriented users
in particular, and I believe that most of them would not be very
IRC/mailing list-savvy either.
It would also immensely help to have community discussions and other forms
of information concentrated in one location instead of split over the IRC
and the mailing list.

If we are to go ahead with making a forum, I think I'm speaking for a lot
of people here when I say that I don't want a forum that cannot be used
without Javascript or cannot be built/deployed with Guix. Given these
constraints, Discourse is not a good option as it does not build on Guix.
phpBB and SMF are two good options we could look into, although they look a
little dated compared to discourse. Flarum might also be worth looking
into, but I am not sure if it will build properly on Guix.

Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly
appreciated!

Regards,
Sarthak.

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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Robby Zambito]

Hi Sarthak,

> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very
> easy to navigate compared to forum threads.

I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation
relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the
places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional
frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good.

I have never found myself participating in distro-specific forums; I
have always used them as read-only sources of information. Yet here I am
participating in the Guix mailing lists :). I bet I am not alone in this
experience.

Also FWIW, Guix was basically my introduction to participating in
mailing lists. So I wouldn't say I am biased in my old ways of doing
things - I just genuinely think it's a good way to handle communication.

Robby

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Andrea Rossi]

Hi Sarthak,

On 13/07/23 15:52, Sarthak Shah wrote:
> [...]
> Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly 
> appreciated!

Personally, I hate web-based forums as much as I love mailing lists - 
especially when used with netiquette. It's such an ingrained prejudice 
that I think it's fair for me to refrain from discussing whether a forum 
is beneficial to new users.
However, I do wonder whether the features in Mailman 3, namely Postorius 
and HyperKitty, might make it easier for new users to get started 
without losing the ability to hone their skills in information retrieval 
and knowledge representation models.

Regards,
Andrea

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Csepp]

Robby Zambito <contact@robbyzambito.me> writes:

> Hi Sarthak,
>
>> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very
>> easy to navigate compared to forum threads.
>
> I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation
> relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the
> places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional
> frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good.

Sourcehut has full-time employees working on making these accessible, so
it really boggles my mind why we aren't using that instead of Savannah
and Debbugs.
We could also bridge IRC to Matrix (even though the company behind it
has some people who... let's say like the taste of leather too much).
Pine64 has a great chat setup actually, their channels are bridged to a
whole bunch of services.  Not saying we must also bridge with Discord,
but at least the libre options should be considered.

> I have never found myself participating in distro-specific forums; I
> have always used them as read-only sources of information. Yet here I am
> participating in the Guix mailing lists :). I bet I am not alone in this
> experience.
>
> Also FWIW, Guix was basically my introduction to participating in
> mailing lists. So I wouldn't say I am biased in my old ways of doing
> things - I just genuinely think it's a good way to handle communication.
>
> Robby

Guix is also the first project I contributed to in a major way over
mailing lists and my experience is that if you don't keep up to date
with the list, the lackluster search and linking will be a major pain in
the buttocks.  It is usable for experts, but is absolutely not
beginner-friendly.
But even experts would benefit from a better workflow.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[vidak]

On 2023-07-13 21:52, Sarthak Shah wrote:
> Hey Guix,
> I think we should seriously consider having a user forum similar to
> Debian's User Forum or Nixos' Discourse.
> 
> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their
> problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very easy to
> navigate compared to forum threads. Seeing the situation with RHEL, I think
> now's the perfect time for us to acquire new HPC/stability-oriented users
> in particular, and I believe that most of them would not be very
> IRC/mailing list-savvy either.
> It would also immensely help to have community discussions and other forms
> of information concentrated in one location instead of split over the IRC
> and the mailing list.
> 
> If we are to go ahead with making a forum, I think I'm speaking for a lot
> of people here when I say that I don't want a forum that cannot be used
> without Javascript or cannot be built/deployed with Guix. Given these
> constraints, Discourse is not a good option as it does not build on Guix.
> phpBB and SMF are two good options we could look into, although they look a
> little dated compared to discourse. Flarum might also be worth looking
> into, but I am not sure if it will build properly on Guix.
> 
> Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly
> appreciated!
> 
> Regards,
> Sarthak.

A great idea. I would use a forum. I would say just go ahead and set up
a forum yourself, and I'll bring some people along that I know from the
fediverse.

~vidak

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Msavoritias]

Csepp <raingloom@riseup.net> writes:

> Robby Zambito <contact@robbyzambito.me> writes:
>
>> Hi Sarthak,
>>
>>> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very
>>> easy to navigate compared to forum threads.
>>
>> I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation
>> relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the
>> places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional
>> frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good.
>
> Sourcehut has full-time employees working on making these accessible, so
> it really boggles my mind why we aren't using that instead of Savannah
> and Debbugs.
> We could also bridge IRC to Matrix (even though the company behind it
> has some people who... let's say like the taste of leather too much).
> Pine64 has a great chat setup actually, their channels are bridged to a
> whole bunch of services.  Not saying we must also bridge with Discord,
> but at least the libre options should be considered.
>

Hey,

Very much agreed with Sourcehut as a much better frontend for guix.
Plus its AGPL3 licensed all of it afaik.

Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction.
I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that
purpose.
As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC.

MSavoritias

>> I have never found myself participating in distro-specific forums; I
>> have always used them as read-only sources of information. Yet here I am
>> participating in the Guix mailing lists :). I bet I am not alone in this
>> experience.
>>
>> Also FWIW, Guix was basically my introduction to participating in
>> mailing lists. So I wouldn't say I am biased in my old ways of doing
>> things - I just genuinely think it's a good way to handle communication.
>>
>> Robby
>
> Guix is also the first project I contributed to in a major way over
> mailing lists and my experience is that if you don't keep up to date
> with the list, the lackluster search and linking will be a major pain in
> the buttocks.  It is usable for experts, but is absolutely not
> beginner-friendly.
> But even experts would benefit from a better workflow.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Andy Tai]

forums are not good because they are not as transparent as mailing
lists--you can search the guix mailing lists with Google, Bing or
whatever search engine you use, for example. Forum? probably not

Maybe an editable (wiki) site for FAQ will be good for sharing common
questions/answers.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

Hi Robby and Sarthak,

On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 7:17 AM Robby Zambito <contact@robbyzambito.me> wrote:
>
> I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation
> relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs

I'm technically one of the administrators of forums.debian.net and
would not recommend web-based "forums" to projects that do not have
them. They are hard to search and even harder to police. Also, the
software tends to be based on dated technologies. There are better
ways to help people in need.

The points that were mentioned resonate with me, but I actually find
Guix's documentation quite good already (possibly even second after
Arch).

We have five broad issues, however:

1. Our community is small, and possibly shrinking.
2. Scheme is a niche language that is not being promoted enough.
3. Guix uses a complex file layout that's different from most other
distributions.
4. Our master branch often suffers from small defects that prevent
declared systems (and home configurations) from being updated in full.
5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor
due to peering issues.

Personally, I think that promoting GNU Guile in other settings has
perhaps the best potential to lower our barriers to entry. People
should not be writing shell scripts in 2023.

Other than that, everyone can make themselves available to help folks
with difficulties on the existing mailing lists.

Everyone writes something silly from time to time. It's not a big
deal. The helping hand is what counts!

Kind regards
Felix

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Sarthak Shah]

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Hey Andy,
That's definitely not the case.
I've used that method of search with other GNU/Linux distribution forums,
and it has always worked.
Have you had that issue before?

The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is
a lot easier to follow threads on forums.
You have all the replies on the same page, compared to clicking on the link
of each reply, realizing it doesn't have the answer, clicking another link
and so on...
Furthermore it'll be easier to distinguish between contributors and users,
which I think will be a necessity if we grow.

On Sat, Jul 15, 2023 at 1:50 AM Andy Tai <atai@atai.org> wrote:

> forums are not good because they are not as transparent as mailing
> lists--you can search the guix mailing lists with Google, Bing or
> whatever search engine you use, for example. Forum? probably not
>
> Maybe an editable (wiki) site for FAQ will be good for sharing common
> questions/answers.
>
>

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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

HI Sarthak,

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:18 PM Sarthak Shah <shahsarthakw@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums.

Have you thought about maybe using Debbugs to compartmentalize the
discussions of some topics?

I think that works well in Debian, even though email is admittedly
based on even older technology than forums.debian.net.

Kind regards
Felix

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Wojtek Kosior via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

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> > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums.  
> 
> Have you thought about maybe using Debbugs to compartmentalize the
> discussions of some topics?

Besides debbugs, I recall one other interesting example of integration
between email and the web — the Trisquel forums[1]. Users there have a
choice to use either the web interface of email to read posts and write
responses.

Also, there's Redmine[2] which seems to support something similar

[1] https://trisquel.info/en/forum/general-free-software-talk
[2] https://www.redmine.org/

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On Fri, 14 Jul 2023 14:26:27 -0700 Felix Lechner via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> wrote:

> HI Sarthak,
> 
> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 2:18 PM Sarthak Shah <shahsarthakw@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums.  
> 
> Have you thought about maybe using Debbugs to compartmentalize the
> discussions of some topics?
> 
> I think that works well in Debian, even though email is admittedly
> based on even older technology than forums.debian.net.
> 
> Kind regards
> Felix
> 

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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Nguyễn Gia Phong via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

On 2023-07-15 at 02:47+05:30, Sarthak Shah wrote:
> The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists
> is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums.
>
> You have all the replies on the same page, compared to clicking
> on the link of each reply, realizing it doesn't have the answer,
> clicking another link and so on...

Csepp suggested Sourcehut earlier which has the desired UI/UX,
e.g. https://lists.sr.ht/~sircmpwn/sr.ht-discuss/%3C20230416195341.0b20bda8a213c8cb868d711f%40posteo.net%3E

The best thing about email (list) is interopability,
which means not only we can run Sourcehut lists along side Mailman
as an alternative frontend (by simply forwarding)
or smoothly transition to it, but also every subscriber
also have a replica to index as one wishes.

While forum implementations usually do support email notification,
they are second-class presentation missing certain metadata
such as threading information (In-Reply-To).

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[kiasoc5]

On 7/13/23 11:21, Csepp wrote:
> 
> Robby Zambito <contact@robbyzambito.me> writes:
> 
>> Hi Sarthak,
>>
>>> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very
>>> easy to navigate compared to forum threads.
>>
>> I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation
>> relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the
>> places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional
>> frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good.

Imo, fragmentation is abound in Guix.

The official docs, while very good, is missing things that often need to 
be answered by reading the source/commit log. Some examples: the manual 
is missing API documentation for many of the Guile functions for the 
Guix DSL. The custom kernel chapter in the cookbook doesn't mention 
using #:extra-options keyword yet. The packaging videos on the website 
still refer to old-style inputs, and there's no section in the cookbook 
that describes packaging paradigms such as avoiding assoc-ref.

If it's not in the manual, I (and probably many others) turn to my 
search engine. But there's a relative lack of blogs covering usage of 
Guix, probably because most people have difficulty using Guix on nonfree 
hardware. And the unofficial forums for Guix on Reddit/Lemmy, where 
there's the occasional question, commonly answered by "I don't know, did 
you read the manual/ask the mailing list/IRC?" Yes, I end up on the 
mailing list and IRC, but that's because it's not easy to find 
information that's not in the manual.

Compare this to Nix. It's likely more popular because users have access 
to the most number of updated packages on their (likely nonfree) 
computers and OSes (as Nix works on Mac). These users then write blog 
posts and engage with their community to espouse how amazing their Nix 
experience is, which in turn serves as informal documentation. More 
users = more contributors = more blog posts and engagement = more users 
= positive feedback loop.

The positive feedback loop is comparatively lacking on Guix, which might 
explain the "small, and possibly shrinking" community 
(https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guix-devel/2023-07/msg00072.html). 
There should some instruction to learn the "Guix way" in an organized 
and efficient manner, as well as to encourage users to document their 
experiences and share them online. If a forum helps with this, then I 
would support it.

> Sourcehut has full-time employees working on making these accessible, so
> it really boggles my mind why we aren't using that instead of Savannah
> and Debbugs.

I would support a migration to Sourcehut. It really has brought the 
forge to mailing list development. Maybe Guix can host their own 
Sourcehut instance, after sourcehut is packaged.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

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Hi!

I saw this thread mentioned in #guix.

Csepp 写道：
> We could also bridge IRC to Matrix

This will happen if EMS (representing ‘Matrix’ here) fixes the 
mysterious errors that are currently plaguing channels trying to 
migrate from portalled⁰ to plumbed⁰ rooms.

Kind regards,

T G-R

[0]: https://libera.chat/news/matrix-deportalling

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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Attila Lendvai]

> I'm technically one of the administrators of forums.debian.net and
> would not recommend web-based "forums" to projects that do not have
> them. They are hard to search and even harder to police. Also, the
> software tends to be based on dated technologies. There are better
> ways to help people in need.


i'm wondering, does that include something like stackexchange.com ?

i know that it's not free software, but i'm wondering whether you are saying that a static documentation plus a mailing list is superior to something like stackexchange (i.e. a modern forum engine with tags and all the bells and whistles, and it's well-integrated into general search engines)?

because that would go against my experience, very much.

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	— David D. Friedman (1945–), 'The Machinery of Freedom' (1973)

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Attila Lendvai]

> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction.
> I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that
> purpose.
> As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC.


it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time, ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine crawlers...

i think it all boils down to this:

mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying data model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user.

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	— Émile Zola (1840–1902)

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Attila Lendvai]

> > > I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation
> > > relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs, rather than fragmenting the
> > > places that someone should look for answers. Maybe a new / additional
> > > frontend that is more approachable for new users would also be good.
> 
> 
> Imo, fragmentation is abound in Guix.
> 
> The official docs, while very good, is missing things that often need to
> be answered by reading the source/commit log. Some examples: the manual


also, reading the entire manual has an large cost, when e.g. i'm trying out a new distro and i have a limited time and tolerance for frustration. i'll be firing up websearches, skim past discussions, and then as a last resort peek into the code... but i will not read the manual from front to back in that phase.

i'm not sure how representative a sample i am, though.


> If it's not in the manual, I (and probably many others) turn to my
> search engine. But there's a relative lack of blogs covering usage of


...or straight out start with the search engine, and only after that try to browse the relevant part of the manual.


> Guix, probably because most people have difficulty using Guix on nonfree
> hardware. And the unofficial forums for Guix on Reddit/Lemmy, where


yeah, the idealist in me is fully behind the free software fundamentalist stance to not even mention That Other Channel, but the realist in me also sees that it potentially turns away hordes of new users who run out of frustration-tolerance before they could even install the distro and begin playing with it...


> Compare this to Nix. It's likely more popular because users have access
> to the most number of updated packages on their (likely nonfree)
> computers and OSes (as Nix works on Mac). These users then write blog
> posts and engage with their community to espouse how amazing their Nix
> experience is, which in turn serves as informal documentation. More
> users = more contributors = more blog posts and engagement = more users
> = positive feedback loop.


FWIW, i came to Guix from Nix, and the difference for me in user and contributor experience was enormous. from a technical perspective, i find Guix superior enough to compensate for it, though.

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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[MSavoritias]

Attila Lendvai <attila@lendvai.name> writes:

>> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction.
>> I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that
>> purpose.
>> As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC.
>
>
> it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier
> questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's
> primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time,
> ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping
> discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine
> crawlers...
>
> i think it all boils down to this:
>
> mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying data model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user.

Good point.
My thinking is that next we miss too things for that:

1. Easy search and indexing of our docs. Which already exists for the
most part. Searching for occurunces of words like grep or a full blown
wiki like gentoo or arch would be an interesting future approach.
2. We need something easier than gnu info to contribute docs. As I have
read a lot in irc for it to be a barrier. And personally its one of the
main reasons i havent contributed yet. That I need time to learn
it. That and I can't easily change or add Docs. I have to do pull
requests and such.

Thats why I was also aggreeing with Sourcehut in the other email. (Which
already has guix ci support.) Guix would benefit from less NIH imo. At
least in places where there already better solutions.

Msavoritias

> -- 
> • attila lendvai
> • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Julien Lepiller]

Le 15 juillet 2023 23:00:43 GMT+02:00, MSavoritias <email@msavoritias.me> a écrit :
>
>Attila Lendvai <attila@lendvai.name> writes:
>
>>> Regarding the forum I dont think any forum would have much traction.
>>> I agree that either matrix or xmpp could be considered instead for that
>>> purpose.
>>> As a more approachable chat mechanism compared to IRC.
>>
>>
>> it's an essential role of a forum that latecomers find the earlier
>> questions/discussions, typically through a websearch. a forum's
>> primary user-story is very much not that of a chat, i.e. a real-time,
>> ephemeral, linear flow of text, sometimes with multiple overlapping
>> discussions, and as such not very well processed by the search engine
>> crawlers...
>>
>> i think it all boils down to this:
>>
>> mailing list archives (and IRC logs) are stuck in time. their underlying data model is inadequate for efficient indexing/searching, and often lack structure even to conveniently present the archive to the user.
>
>Good point.
>My thinking is that next we miss too things for that:
>
>1. Easy search and indexing of our docs. Which already exists for the
>most part. Searching for occurunces of words like grep or a full blown
>wiki like gentoo or arch would be an interesting future approach.
>2. We need something easier than gnu info to contribute docs. As I have
>read a lot in irc for it to be a barrier. And personally its one of the
>main reasons i havent contributed yet. That I need time to learn
>it. That and I can't easily change or add Docs. I have to do pull
>requests and such.

At least for the cookbook, we can accept other formats, and a commiter will convert to the proper info format. What matters is the content, and you don't even have to create a patch, just send a chapter to the ML :)

>
>Thats why I was also aggreeing with Sourcehut in the other email. (Which
>already has guix ci support.) Guix would benefit from less NIH imo. At
>least in places where there already better solutions.
>
>Msavoritias
>
>> -- 
>> • attila lendvai
>> • PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39
>
>

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Pjotr Prins]

On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 02:10:49PM -0700, Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. wrote:
> Hi Robby and Sarthak,
> 
> On Thu, Jul 13, 2023 at 7:17 AM Robby Zambito <contact@robbyzambito.me> wrote:
> >
> > I personally think that it would be wiser to improve the documentation
> > relating to the mailing lists and IRC logs
> 
> I'm technically one of the administrators of forums.debian.net and
> would not recommend web-based "forums" to projects that do not have
> them. They are hard to search and even harder to police. Also, the
> software tends to be based on dated technologies. There are better
> ways to help people in need.
 
Thanks to Arun we rolled our own issue tracker and knowledge base with

https://issues.genenetwork.org/

Written in Guile the interface is simple, the backend is simply a git
repo (can be hosted anywhere), and it uses a xapian search indexer.
Personally I think this is an awesome way of tracking information and
allows reorganising information and rewriting history. The tags are
arbitrary - though we clearly focussed on an issue tracker here.

If the xapian indexer also analysed mailing list output (through
publicinbox, for example) and maybe debbugs and IRC logs it would be
complete. 

https://public-inbox.org/README.html

Key thing is that people can post, answer questions, track issues etc.
and make it all findable. Fun - but probably useless - fact is that we
can also serve it over gemini.

> The points that were mentioned resonate with me, but I actually find
> Guix's documentation quite good already (possibly even second after
> Arch).

+1. 

> We have five broad issues, however:
> 
> 1. Our community is small, and possibly shrinking.

I doubt that is true in absolute terms. You should see where we were
10 years ago :). Guile and Racket made impressive gains the last
years.

In relative terms we can't compete and should not aim
to do so with either Guix or Guile.

> 2. Scheme is a niche language that is not being promoted enough.

Lisp will always be niche. Why would it change in half a century? The
power of Lisp comes from its syntax - but it is a barrier to entry at
the same time. I am always amazed they came up with that early in CS
history.

> 3. Guix uses a complex file layout that's different from most other
> distributions.

We have the fhs bindings. But yeah, that is another barrier.

> 4. Our master branch often suffers from small defects that prevent
> declared systems (and home configurations) from being updated in full.

I think the stable releases try to address that. But I agree, Guix is
a moving target. I don't see that changing much. 

> 5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor
> due to peering issues.

That is a matter of money, I guess.

> Personally, I think that promoting GNU Guile in other settings has
> perhaps the best potential to lower our barriers to entry. People
> should not be writing shell scripts in 2023.

They always will, including me. I am, however, giving Guile talks and
promote rash and gash. I am submitting a talk to ICFP Seattle.

https://icfp23.sigplan.org/home/declmed-2023

You can still do that too. I know they have slots.

> Other than that, everyone can make themselves available to help folks
> with difficulties on the existing mailing lists.
> 
> Everyone writes something silly from time to time. It's not a big
> deal. The helping hand is what counts!

Thanks!

Pj.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Csepp]

Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> writes:

> On Fri, Jul 14, 2023 at 02:10:49PM -0700, Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. wrote:
...
>> 1. Our community is small, and possibly shrinking.
>
> I doubt that is true in absolute terms. You should see where we were
> 10 years ago :). Guile and Racket made impressive gains the last
> years.
>
> In relative terms we can't compete and should not aim
> to do so with either Guix or Guile.
>
>> 2. Scheme is a niche language that is not being promoted enough.
>
> Lisp will always be niche. Why would it change in half a century? The
> power of Lisp comes from its syntax - but it is a barrier to entry at
> the same time. I am always amazed they came up with that early in CS
> history.

Like I've mentioned on fedi before, advocates of Lispy languages tend to
talk a lot about what's *possible* with the language, but the truth is
that the actual tooling that matters simply isn't very good, and having
an S-expression based syntax doesn't magically make writing the kinds of
refactoring tools that Java developers have been enjoying for 10+ years
significantly easier.
For that we need good *static analysis*, and unbounded dynamism and too
much syntax magic makes that *more* difficult.
At the very least I want to be able to rename variables across the whole
project and jump to definitions reliably.

Before trying to convince me otherwise in replies, please go and try
Eclipse, or even JetBrains if you have access to it (I think it has an
open source version??), just so you know what you are up against as a
free software advocate trying to convince developers to use Scheme.
I was set out to hate JetBrains when I had to use it in uni this
semester, but I was pleasantly surprised by how easy it was to use.
I'm not saying this to advertise Java tools, I'm saying this to snap
Lispers out of the reality distortion bubble some of them seem to be
stuck in.

TLDR: instead of looking for excuses for why no one gets Lisp, we should
be actually addressing the complaints.  Then maybe people will start
getting Lisp.

ps.: As far as I can tell, the Lisps with good IDEs are image based, not
source based, that's why they have an easier time doing metaprogramming,
because the runtime helps a lot.  But an image based system is not
exactly in line with Guix's goal of reproducibility.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> writes:

> If the xapian indexer also analysed mailing list output (through
> publicinbox, for example) and maybe debbugs and IRC logs it would be
> complete. 

It does index the IRC logs, but there’s a bug in the deployment:

    https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/goggles.scm#n56

>> 5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor
>> due to peering issues.
>
> That is a matter of money, I guess.

Peering issues can only be avoided by distributing the artifacts to many
different locations.  We’ve previously paid for distribution via AWS,
which was rather expensive.

It might be better to revive the distribution over IPFS.

-- 
Ricardo

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Etienne B. Roesch]

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Hi!

Being somewhat of a beginner myself, or at least a newcomer, I can relate
to the steep learning curve.  I also attempted the supervision of
psychology students on a guix hackathon (as an experiment) not too long
ago: utter beginners and we focused on reviewing the documentation, with
the idea of creating material for beginners. More on that soon, hopefully.

The missing “search” feature that seems to have triggered this thread, is
indeed important, from a beginner’s perspective, I think. But I tend to
agree with the later post warning about the multiplicity of ways to connect
and get information: the information that beginners need really is in the
current documentation, which at times can be opaque or confusing (going
back and forth between guix system native and guix package manager on a
host, without necessarily explicit warning; or possible discrepancies
between the manual and the cookbook), and could use a bit of TLC.

The way I use the doc, is by loading the latest manual in the browser as
one page, and use the search function of the browser. That helps but it
also implies I know what I am looking for, and I can fill in the gaps, eg
about context (guix system vs host).

I don’t think we necessarily need another outlet, and should maybe just
consolidate what we have. If ways to connect to the community are explicit
(and they currently aren't very visible), I don't think beginners would
need another portal or forum, or another way to read issues from git. Also
really, reading git commit messages should not be the way to inform
beginners.

Of note, I currently have access to: (I am hugely grateful to the many
people who answered what might have seemed an endless stream of questions
on irc.!)
- google, as well as the doc and the cookbook
- this mailing list and others: guix-devel, guix-help, ... 8 in total and
they all have archives: https://savannah.gnu.org/mail/?group=guix
- the irc channels, #guix #nonguix #guix-hpc #systemcrafters
#systemcrafters-help #guix-offtopic: https://guix.gnu.org/en/contact/irc/
(with logs: https://logs.guix.gnu.org)
- the guix-hpc events like monthly cafe guix:
https://hpc.guix.info/events/2022/café-guix/
- and the mattermost server by the same people:
https://mattermost.univ-nantes.fr/signup_user_complete/?id=njdxbdazafddtq6wsm6cgrr95r

Have a great day!

Etienne


On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 23:39, <vidak@riseup.net> wrote:

> On 2023-07-13 21:52, Sarthak Shah wrote:
> > Hey Guix,
> > I think we should seriously consider having a user forum similar to
> > Debian's User Forum or Nixos' Discourse.
> >
> > As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their
> > problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as they aren't very easy to
> > navigate compared to forum threads. Seeing the situation with RHEL, I
> think
> > now's the perfect time for us to acquire new HPC/stability-oriented users
> > in particular, and I believe that most of them would not be very
> > IRC/mailing list-savvy either.
> > It would also immensely help to have community discussions and other
> forms
> > of information concentrated in one location instead of split over the IRC
> > and the mailing list.
> >
> > If we are to go ahead with making a forum, I think I'm speaking for a lot
> > of people here when I say that I don't want a forum that cannot be used
> > without Javascript or cannot be built/deployed with Guix. Given these
> > constraints, Discourse is not a good option as it does not build on Guix.
> > phpBB and SMF are two good options we could look into, although they
> look a
> > little dated compared to discourse. Flarum might also be worth looking
> > into, but I am not sure if it will build properly on Guix.
> >
> > Software suggestions as well as thoughts on this idea would be greatly
> > appreciated!
> >
> > Regards,
> > Sarthak.
>
> A great idea. I would use a forum. I would say just go ahead and set up
> a forum yourself, and I'll bring some people along that I know from the
> fediverse.
>
> ~vidak
>
>

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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[MSavoritias]

Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:

> Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> writes:
>
>> If the xapian indexer also analysed mailing list output (through
>> publicinbox, for example) and maybe debbugs and IRC logs it would be
>> complete. 
>
> It does index the IRC logs, but there’s a bug in the deployment:
>
>     https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/goggles.scm#n56
>
>>> 5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor
>>> due to peering issues.
>>
>> That is a matter of money, I guess.
>
> Peering issues can only be avoided by distributing the artifacts to many
> different locations.  We’ve previously paid for distribution via AWS,
> which was rather expensive.
>
> It might be better to revive the distribution over IPFS.

Isn't it worked on still?
My understanding was that we are waiting for:
1. ERIS to happen -> https://eris.codeberg.page/ which is here ->
https://issues.guix.gnu.org/52555
2. and also https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/GSoC-2023 which uses
ERIS.

Not sure if it has been picked up yet. I dont follow gsoc closely.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Attila Lendvai]

> Like I've mentioned on fedi before, advocates of Lispy languages tend to
> talk a lot about what's possible with the language, but the truth is
> that the actual tooling that matters simply isn't very good, and having
> an S-expression based syntax doesn't magically make writing the kinds of
> refactoring tools that Java developers have been enjoying for 10+ years
> significantly easier.
> For that we need good static analysis, and unbounded dynamism and too
> much syntax magic makes that more difficult.
> At the very least I want to be able to rename variables across the whole
> project and jump to definitions reliably.


i came to Common Lisp from that world, and i don't miss those tools one bit.

those refactoring tools in the java world feel so useful exactly because of the linguistic inability to formally express abstractions in the language. when lisp is used properly (which includes discipline while naming abstractions!) then one doesn't miss those tools.

a related quote that captures this sentiment:

“[Design] Patterns mean "I have run out of language."”
	— Rich Hickey

but i agree that there's plenty of room for improvement in the lisp tooling, even for just Guile + Geiser to catch up with CL + Slime.

and i also agree that the learning curve is way too steep with Emacs + lisp tools. ultiamtely, i think it's worth it, but it does require quite some determination and frustration tolerance.


> ps.: As far as I can tell, the Lisps with good IDEs are image based, not
> source based, that's why they have an easier time doing metaprogramming,
> because the runtime helps a lot. But an image based system is not
> exactly in line with Guix's goal of reproducibility.


all lisps are image based in the sense that they are a VM once the source has been loaded... no? but, unfortunately, all (non-obsolete) lisps use flat text files to represent the source code. java tools turn that flat text source code into a graph and work on the graph, and does this text-graph-text conversion transparently for the user.

but it's only possible to do this conversion in languages that have a relatively little degree of freedom... which translates to less freedom to express abstractions... which in turn translates to a greater need for refactoring tools.

again, i most agree with you. what i wanted to express is that there's much more to this topic.

-- 
• attila lendvai
• PGP: 963F 5D5F 45C7 DFCD 0A39
--
“It's surprising how many persons go through life without ever recognizing that their feelings toward other people are largely determined by their feelings toward themselves, and if you're not comfortable within yourself, you can't be comfortable with others.”
	— Sydney J. Harris

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Csepp]

MSavoritias <email@msavoritias.me> writes:

> Ricardo Wurmus <rekado@elephly.net> writes:
>
>> Pjotr Prins <pjotr.public12@thebird.nl> writes:
>>
>>> If the xapian indexer also analysed mailing list output (through
>>> publicinbox, for example) and maybe debbugs and IRC logs it would be
>>> complete. 
>>
>> It does index the IRC logs, but there’s a bug in the deployment:
>>
>>     https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/guix/maintenance.git/tree/hydra/goggles.scm#n56
>>
>>>> 5. Substitute availability is good, but download speeds can be poor
>>>> due to peering issues.
>>>
>>> That is a matter of money, I guess.
>>
>> Peering issues can only be avoided by distributing the artifacts to many
>> different locations.  We’ve previously paid for distribution via AWS,
>> which was rather expensive.
>>
>> It might be better to revive the distribution over IPFS.
>
> Isn't it worked on still?
> My understanding was that we are waiting for:
> 1. ERIS to happen -> https://eris.codeberg.page/ which is here ->
> https://issues.guix.gnu.org/52555
> 2. and also https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:Guix/GSoC-2023 which uses
> ERIS.
>
> Not sure if it has been picked up yet. I dont follow gsoc closely.

Distributed substitutes was AFAIK not accepted for GSoC, only the
parameterized packages project was.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Wilko Meyer]

Hi Sarthak,

Sarthak Shah <shahsarthakw@gmail.com> writes:

> As of now, it's a bit difficult for beginners to find answers to their problems in the mailing list or in IRC logs as
> they aren't very easy to navigate compared to forum threads.

I'm not sure wether having a web-based user forum solves this issue as
it would be yet another place to look up a potential solution in. I'd
also argue that a web-based forum doesn't provide anything mailing lists
can't when it comes to the ability to have threaded discussions.

In my opinion there are two things to potentially solve here:

- discoverability of information across the various places where these
  could've been found (debbugs, mailing list archives, irc logs, docs);
  which more or less boils down to having better search options.
- if there are questions that common that they usually get asked
  frequently/looked up frequently, that's usually an indicator to
  improve documentation on the topic.

> It would also immensely help to have community discussions and other forms of information concentrated in one
> location instead of split over the IRC and the mailing list.

This would most likely mean a split across three locations, IRC, mailing
list and a potential forum, instead of just two then.

Regards,

Wilko Meyer

A Forum for Guix Users

[Distopico]

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I have been using and participating in other GNU distributions such as
Trisquel and Parabola, but mostly as beholder/viewer.

After more than 10 year the forum of Trisquel still active, not like 8
years ago before social media, but is active, and more important is used
mostly for new user, and non-technical user, also the Trisquel forum is
well indexed and when you try to find something related with Trisquel
the forums is the solutions for those issues usuall.y 

Trisquel also have mailing list but used mostly for dev/contributor and
the Irc for also for dev/contributors or more advanced users.

Parabola as well have a forum/Irc/mailing, but in this case the forum is
not quite active, maybe because the focus of parabola is more advanced
users, also as Parabola user as well I also check Archlinux
documentation to try to fix my issues or Archlinux forums because are
more complete.

So I don't think a forum crate fragmentation, and the Forum is an entry
place for beginners and unlike Parabola that has the documentation of
Arch, Guix need to have your own solutions and your own documentation
and a forum is a good place to build that.

So said that:
- Forum: A good place for beginner an non-technical user (I guess all
Guix user require some technical knowledge), also a good place for
create history and user documentation/solutions.

- Irc: For quick question, developer and contributor discussions and
  more advanced users (bridge to Matrix would be good).

- Mailing List: For contributors, developers, and more long-terms
  questions, as well more advanced users.

on the other hand I think that the mailing lists create a more conducive
environment for debate than the forum itself, but again, for new user a
Forum is a better place or to find quick solutions which on Irc are hard
to find.


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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Nguyễn Gia Phong via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution.]

On 2023-07-18 at 03:52+02:00, Wilko Meyer wrote:
> I'm not sure wether having a web-based user forum solves this issue
> as it would be yet another place to look up a potential solution in.
> I'd also argue that a web-based forum doesn't provide anything mailing
> lists can't when it comes to the ability to have threaded discussions.

It's not like you can't have both at the same time,
as in a writable web UI that on user foo's behalf
send an email from address foo@guix.example.
Email being emails means that this can be run along side
the current mailing list without fragmenting the knowledge base.

On 2023-07-13 at 16:40+02:00, Andrea Rossi wrote:
> However, I do wonder whether the features in Mailman 3,
> namely Postorius and HyperKitty, might make it easier for new users
> to get started without losing the ability to hone their skills
> in information retrieval and knowledge representation models.

Were I not subscribed, I'd defo prefer HyperKitty to Mailman basic (?)
web UI.  HyperKitty was created precisely for this purpose:
https://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2012/02/29/7750-pixels-of-mailing-list-thread

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Nguyễn Gia Phong via "Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution." <guix-devel@gnu.org> writes:

> On 2023-07-13 at 16:40+02:00, Andrea Rossi wrote:
>> However, I do wonder whether the features in Mailman 3,
>> namely Postorius and HyperKitty, might make it easier for new users
>> to get started without losing the ability to hone their skills
>> in information retrieval and knowledge representation models.
>
> Were I not subscribed, I'd defo prefer HyperKitty to Mailman basic (?)
> web UI.  HyperKitty was created precisely for this purpose:
> https://blog.linuxgrrl.com/2012/02/29/7750-pixels-of-mailing-list-thread

HyperKitty is very nice looking.  We don’t host Mailman ourselves,
though, so I don’t know how we’d go about setting it up.

-- 
Ricardo

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Etienne B. Roesch]

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Yes, these are good points: the technicality required for dev work may
actually deter newcomers, and therefore perhaps a higher-level online forum
for beginners to ask questions could lower the barrier to entry. I am
revising my vote in favour of the forum :)

Etienne

On Tue, Jul 18, 2023 at 4:56 PM Distopico <distopico@riseup.net> wrote:

>
> I have been using and participating in other GNU distributions such as
> Trisquel and Parabola, but mostly as beholder/viewer.
>
> After more than 10 year the forum of Trisquel still active, not like 8
> years ago before social media, but is active, and more important is used
> mostly for new user, and non-technical user, also the Trisquel forum is
> well indexed and when you try to find something related with Trisquel
> the forums is the solutions for those issues usuall.y
>
> Trisquel also have mailing list but used mostly for dev/contributor and
> the Irc for also for dev/contributors or more advanced users.
>
> Parabola as well have a forum/Irc/mailing, but in this case the forum is
> not quite active, maybe because the focus of parabola is more advanced
> users, also as Parabola user as well I also check Archlinux
> documentation to try to fix my issues or Archlinux forums because are
> more complete.
>
> So I don't think a forum crate fragmentation, and the Forum is an entry
> place for beginners and unlike Parabola that has the documentation of
> Arch, Guix need to have your own solutions and your own documentation
> and a forum is a good place to build that.
>
> So said that:
> - Forum: A good place for beginner an non-technical user (I guess all
> Guix user require some technical knowledge), also a good place for
> create history and user documentation/solutions.
>
> - Irc: For quick question, developer and contributor discussions and
>   more advanced users (bridge to Matrix would be good).
>
> - Mailing List: For contributors, developers, and more long-terms
>   questions, as well more advanced users.
>
> on the other hand I think that the mailing lists create a more conducive
> environment for debate than the forum itself, but again, for new user a
> Forum is a better place or to find quick solutions which on Irc are hard
> to find.
>
>

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Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[宋文武]

Sarthak Shah <shahsarthakw@gmail.com> writes:

> The reason why I'm suggesting a move away from mailing lists is that it is a lot easier to follow threads on forums. 
> You have all the replies on the same page, compared to clicking on the link of each reply, realizing it doesn't have the answer, clicking
> another link and so on...

Well, I could not image we'd move away from mailing lists (for patches,
issues)...  For QA forum we have the help-guix list, it has an
unofficial public-inbox instance at https://yhetil.org/guix-user/ ,
which show replies in one page, and can be clicked to reply by email...
Maybe we can write a more polished web interface for public-inbox.


Also today I learned there exist fediverse reddit like sites using
lemmy/kbin, where you can get a modern forum experience. eg:
https://kbin.social/m/guix@lemmy.ml (not much people there though...)


If we can bridge mailing lists with those fediverse sites, that will be
cool!  🤔

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Ahmed Khanzada]

I like this forum idea.

In fact, I really think a forum / presence for GNU more generally would
be excellent.

Yes, you can find dedicated spaces for Emacs, Guix, etc, and there is
#gnu on Libera and some mailing lists.

But I think we are sorely missing a central point where users can go and
see how they might use Guix, Emacs, etc in conjunction. As well as join
a community centered on GNU as an OS.

I document using Guix, Emacs, exwm and etc together on various
proprietary online spaces like GitHub, Medium, and Reddit. This is
because there is good foot traffic in these spaces. Both old and new
hackers are present in these spaces. But their proprietary nature is
unfortunate. It would be more ideal to document how to use GNU on an
official GNU platform.

As of right now, if you approach the GNU community, it just feels like a
disconnected set of packages. I spend a lot of time explaining to people
how GNU is a unique libre operating system which you can extend using
Lisp. I show them examples of how I have a "fullstack" Lisp workstation
with Guix, Emacs, and exwm. After seeing such an example, the concept of
GNU really "clicks" for them.

I make my living deploying and monitoring applications on servers, so
let me know if I can help setup a social GNU presence.

Distopico <distopico@riseup.net> writes:

> I have been using and participating in other GNU distributions such as
> Trisquel and Parabola, but mostly as beholder/viewer.
>
> After more than 10 year the forum of Trisquel still active, not like 8
> years ago before social media, but is active, and more important is used
> mostly for new user, and non-technical user, also the Trisquel forum is
> well indexed and when you try to find something related with Trisquel
> the forums is the solutions for those issues usuall.y 
>
> Trisquel also have mailing list but used mostly for dev/contributor and
> the Irc for also for dev/contributors or more advanced users.
>
> Parabola as well have a forum/Irc/mailing, but in this case the forum is
> not quite active, maybe because the focus of parabola is more advanced
> users, also as Parabola user as well I also check Archlinux
> documentation to try to fix my issues or Archlinux forums because are
> more complete.
>
> So I don't think a forum crate fragmentation, and the Forum is an entry
> place for beginners and unlike Parabola that has the documentation of
> Arch, Guix need to have your own solutions and your own documentation
> and a forum is a good place to build that.
>
> So said that:
> - Forum: A good place for beginner an non-technical user (I guess all
> Guix user require some technical knowledge), also a good place for
> create history and user documentation/solutions.
>
> - Irc: For quick question, developer and contributor discussions and
>   more advanced users (bridge to Matrix would be good).
>
> - Mailing List: For contributors, developers, and more long-terms
>   questions, as well more advanced users.
>
> on the other hand I think that the mailing lists create a more conducive
> environment for debate than the forum itself, but again, for new user a
> Forum is a better place or to find quick solutions which on Irc are hard
> to find.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Csepp]

Ahmed Khanzada <me@enzu.ru> writes:

> I like this forum idea.
>
> In fact, I really think a forum / presence for GNU more generally would
> be excellent.
>
> Yes, you can find dedicated spaces for Emacs, Guix, etc, and there is
> #gnu on Libera and some mailing lists.
>
> But I think we are sorely missing a central point where users can go and
> see how they might use Guix, Emacs, etc in conjunction. As well as join
> a community centered on GNU as an OS.
>
> I document using Guix, Emacs, exwm and etc together on various
> proprietary online spaces like GitHub, Medium, and Reddit. This is
> because there is good foot traffic in these spaces. Both old and new
> hackers are present in these spaces. But their proprietary nature is
> unfortunate. It would be more ideal to document how to use GNU on an
> official GNU platform.
>
> As of right now, if you approach the GNU community, it just feels like a
> disconnected set of packages. I spend a lot of time explaining to people
> how GNU is a unique libre operating system which you can extend using
> Lisp. I show them examples of how I have a "fullstack" Lisp workstation
> with Guix, Emacs, and exwm. After seeing such an example, the concept of
> GNU really "clicks" for them.
>
> I make my living deploying and monitoring applications on servers, so
> let me know if I can help setup a social GNU presence.

I'm not sure if focusing so much on GNU is a good idea.

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Simon Tournier]

Hi,

On Tue, 18 Jul 2023 at 06:45, Distopico <distopico@riseup.net> wrote:

> - Forum: A good place for beginner an non-technical user (I guess all
> Guix user require some technical knowledge), also a good place for
> create history and user documentation/solutions.

> - Mailing List: For contributors, developers, and more long-terms
>   questions, as well more advanced users.

Please do not take me wrong because my message could appear “elitist”.
I hope I have a track record about welcoming newcomers, answering on
help-guix mailing and helping on various other forums or media.
 
Well, GNU Guix is currently a technical project and any user will have
their hand dirty.  If you are non-technical and not able to deal with
emails, then sadly GNU Guix is not for you.  My point of view is: a
forum will not help in a better way the newcomers.

Moreover, the maintenance cost of such forum is not free.  You speak
about history but most forums are ephemeral because they are based on
kid-cool web tech, and to my knowledge, mailing list preserves much
better the history.

Even, most of the help provided by answering to a question is also
ephemeral.  I am very doubtful about the value in history for most of
the question/answers.  As an exercise, for instance, none of any
messages from December 2016 [1] seems helpful for today troubles.  And
you can pick any other past months.  If we want to help newcomer, then,
IMHO, the best is to extract the rare “universal-enough” question/answer
and pinpoint them – for instance, improve the documentation (manual or
cookbook).  Maybe, I am wrong…

My point is that forum + mailing lists will scatter where people who
answer have to look.  And you cannot know in advance if the question
will become a long-term question.  In that rare case, I do not speak
about the discoverability of such configuration using forum + mailing
lists.

That’s said, some people are not going via “official” media for
reporting difficulties and asking help.  Instead, they are using stuff
like Reddit, Stackoverflow and the like.  And as experimented users, in
to order to strengthen the community, we should roam on these platforms
(quickly answer and/or friendly redirect to “official” media if needed).

Last, I advocate for using the most sober technology for exchanging
pieces of text and not require the most modern hardware and/or some
resource-hungry software (client and server) that many forums implicitly
require.  An example: try to follow Discourse (e.g.,
https://discuss.ocaml.org) forum with few-featured Web-browser or even
try to deal with it with intermittent internet connection.


1: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/help-guix/2016-12/threads.html


> on the other hand I think that the mailing lists create a more conducive
> environment for debate than the forum itself, but again, for new user a
> Forum is a better place or to find quick solutions which on Irc are hard
> to find.

I concur at some points.  However, I disagree with the proposal that a
new forum would be the answer.  From my point of view, we should keep
the “official” interaction as it is using mailing lists and we need to,
time to time, roam on already existing well-known forums instead of
creating yet another dedicated space.

(Here, I speak about GNU Guix.  My answer is different for specific usage
of Guix in some context as in scientific research because, although
hacker and researcher communities can be joined as it had been done in
10 Years of Guix [2], these both communities have subtle differences. :-))


2: 10years.guix.gnu.org/


Cheers,
simon

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Simon Tournier]

Hi,

On Thu, 13 Jul 2023 at 19:22, Sarthak Shah <shahsarthakw@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think we should seriously consider having a user forum similar to
> Debian's User Forum or Nixos' Discourse.

Well, I shared my opinion in the other thread:

        A Forum for Guix Users
        from Distopico <distopico@riseup.net>
        Tue, 18 Jul 2023 06:45:16 -0500
        https://yhetil.org/guix/87bkg9wigq.fsf@riseup.net

with my message 86a5unz4ap.fsf@gmail.com. 


And to be explicit: do not count on me for interacting with Discourse.
For two reasons:

 1. Because I have never find the way to deal with it with intermittent
 internet connection.  How do you deal with such forum in batch-mode?

 More than often, I process (read and/or answer) the volume of Guix
 messages off-line.  As I am doing right now. :-) For example, before
 going to somewhere without internet connection (meeting or else) and
 because I know that I will have some slots of free time (boring meeting
 or else), well I just fetch the last messages, and then I process the
 messages.  Once back to some internet connection, I send all my
 replies.

 Without that batch-mode feature, I would not just read most of the
 messages and probably I would never answer.  For example, today I am
 not following Haskell or OCaml or Python because Discourse forces me
 the way of interaction.  Well, because I find that way so boring: open
 my web-browser, click, no filter, etc., I am scrolling only the
 Discourse of OCaml once per month or so.  Maybe I have missed the
 offline procedure because I have not checked Discourse features since
 last months (years?).

 2. Because I find insane to have such resource-hungry client/server
 configuration for only exchanging small pieces of text.

 Instead of calling to require more for doing the same (or sometimes
 even less) but using more resource, I am calling to the opposite: doing
 more with less.  I strongly think we must collectively reflect on how
 to do using less.  We have to drastically decrease the global CO2
 footprint and every gram counts.

Obviously, we have to be welcoming.  For sure we have to think and
re-think and think again and again about the best ways to be welcoming
and helpful.  However, I disagree that Discourse or similar will bring
something on the table.  Well, I will not bet that people currently
helping in mailing lists would continue to provide answers using
Discourse and I will not bet that instead new experienced users would
answer to question on Discourse.

There is a trade-off between newcomer’s expectations about the way to
get help and experienced users who provide such help.  I fear that
switching to Discourse could indeed meet newcomer’s expectations but
loosing those experienced users.

Cheers,
simon

Re: A Forum for Guix Users

[Simon Tournier]

Hi Étienne,

On Mon, 17 Jul 2023 at 10:58, "Etienne B. Roesch" <etienne.roesch@gmail.com> wrote:

> The way I use the doc, is by loading the latest manual in the browser as
> one page, and use the search function of the browser. That helps but it
> also implies I know what I am looking for, and I can fill in the gaps, eg
> about context (guix system vs host).

Well, I think many of us are doing the same. :-)


> I don’t think we necessarily need another outlet, and should maybe just
> consolidate what we have.

I agree.  In order to fill the gaps between the manual and where the
beginner is, I think we need tutorials.  Plural because a tutorial needs
to be adapted, depending on the background.

For example, I did a first attempt (in French):

    https://zimoun.gitlab.io/jres22-tuto-guix/support-notes-additionnelles.pdf

Somehow, I think that the missing is practical examples opening the
doors to Guix concept.  For example, in the previous tutorial, I try to
explain what a profile is: the idea was to (1) to feed the concept in
order to being able to understand the various mentions in the manual and
(2) let the audience connect with what they already know (Conda
environment, etc.).

Well, it’s far to be satisfying but that an attempt. :-)

Other examples I find very helpful are “Dissecting Guix”.  Well, they
are core concepts and these concepts are not required by newcomers.
However, I think that is the sort of missing material: digest of
explanations about Guix concept.

The manual is complete but intimidating, IMHO.  What is missing appears
to me sort of Rosetta stones which are self-consistent digest of some
specific Guix concept.

For example,

    https://hpc.guix.info/blog/2023/06/a-guide-to-reproducible-research-papers/

is great.  Now, each step could lead dedicated posts explaining
technical bits.  Because, from my experience, what is missing is the
ingredients for fixing the issues when applying such guide to user’s
use-cases.  And to acquire the knowledge of such ingredients, one needs
to connect the dot with Guix concepts.

Well, for what my opinion is worth.

Cheers,
simon