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From: Mikhail Kryshen <mikhail@kryshen.net>
To: "Ludovic Courtès" <ludo@gnu.org>
Cc: Guix-devel <Guix-devel@gnu.org>,
	gnu-system-discuss@gnu.org,
	GNU Guix maintainers <guix-maintainers@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Joint statement on the GNU Project
Date: Sun, 13 Oct 2019 06:55:26 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87r23h9u4x.fsf@home.localdomain> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87lftsp7an.fsf@gnu.org>

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Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> writes:

> Hi Mikhail,
>
> Mikhail Kryshen <mikhail@kryshen.net> skribis:
>
>> I'm deeply disappointed to see this.  I always thought that the free
>> software community have strong and independent culture, and it's very
>> sad to see GNU maintainers, for whose work I have great respect, fall
>> for the moral panic that is being spread by news and social media
>
> [...]
>
>> This leads to dissolution of the free software culture and its
>> ethical values with the influence of media and corporations that are
>> hostile towards software freedom.
>
> I respectfully think that your interpretation is incorrect.
>
> Keep in mind that each of the signatories has typically more than 10
> years of experience as developer or maintainer of GNU (more than that
> for some.)  They have dedicated a large part of their life to that, and
> they have worked a lot with GNU and RMS.  So it really isn’t about what
> “the media” said last week or the week before.

Is it true then, that you intentionally and knowingly tried to take
advantage of the dishonest media attack on RMS and of its consequences?
Otherwise, how else would you explain the timing of your action?  For
now I'd rather stick to my interpretation of you acting under moral
panic, as it is the least bad one.

> Perhaps you find our decision hard to understand, or perhaps you
> disagree with it, but remember that we have a different perspective.
>
> RMS created GNU, but GNU has long expanded beyond RMS, and free software
> has expanded way beyond GNU, too.  We must keep it striving and reach
> out to those who’ve not yet joined us to share the software!

I share your values, I too want our community to be welcoming, inclusive
and harassment-free.  The problem is not with the values you are trying
to defend, but with your methods.  First the introduction of CoC and
then publication of the statement promoted fear, tension and hatred in
the community, alienated potential users and contributors, gave further
rise to moral panics (both "SJW" and anti-SJW, as you can see in the
discussions that followed) and made us more vulnerable to hostile
manipulation, as people under any moral panic are easily weaponized
against others (this is being widely used in politics all over the
world).

For a year now I've been promoting Guix at my university, and I'm
supporting it on close to a hundred of workstations there, it's too late
to back out, but I would not have started it today and probably would
have restrained myself to only using Guix on my own computer just for
technical curiosity, because my confidence in the future of GNU and Guix
is shaken, and the community does not look welcoming any more.

--
Mikhail

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  parent reply	other threads:[~2019-10-13  4:06 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 137+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2019-10-07 14:32 Joint statement on the GNU Project Ludovic Courtès
2019-10-08  0:24 ` Jesse Gibbons
2019-10-08  1:59   ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-08  8:19     ` pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)
2019-10-08 10:32       ` Jan
2019-10-08 13:52         ` Jesse Gibbons
2019-10-10  3:51         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10 20:12         ` Adam Pribyl
2019-10-08 14:37       ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-10  3:55         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10  3:48       ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10  3:46     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-08  8:34   ` Ludovic Courtès
2019-10-08  8:48     ` Pierre Neidhardt
2019-10-08 11:17       ` Ricardo Wurmus
2019-10-10  4:01         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10  4:00       ` Jean Louis
     [not found]         ` <87pnj5i3u2.fsf@elephly.net>
2019-10-10  5:17           ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10 14:29             ` Ludovic Courtès
2019-10-10 16:56               ` Thorsten Wilms
2019-10-10 22:10                 ` Ludovic Courtès
2019-10-10 16:57               ` Stefan Huchler
2019-10-10 22:50                 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2019-10-10 17:27               ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10 19:13               ` Svante Signell
2019-10-10 19:22                 ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10 20:23                   ` Svante Signell
2019-10-10 20:27                     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12  7:06                     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-30  2:04                       ` Richard Stallman
2019-10-30  6:09                         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-30 18:16                           ` Thompson, David
2019-10-10 20:32                   ` P
2019-10-10 20:51                     ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-10 21:03                       ` Vasya Boytsov
2019-10-12 12:05                         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 14:38                       ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12  7:52                     ` Jean Louis
     [not found]               ` <fa683d19-34ec-7b09-30a4-f4c139adf5ee@frantovo.cz>
     [not found]                 ` <87h84gtig9.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                   ` <0936b8b2-ffbf-6370-71be-db24be1fd743@frantovo.cz>
     [not found]                     ` <87r23jvi7n.fsf@gnu.org>
2019-10-11  8:53                       ` František Kučera
2019-10-12 11:15               ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10 23:27             ` Quiliro Ordóñez
2019-10-11  8:03               ` Ludovic Courtès
2019-10-12 12:19               ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 12:27                 ` Pierre-Henry F.
2019-10-10  3:57     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10  8:43       ` Hartmut Goebel
2019-10-10 10:10         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-08 16:38 ` Dimakakos Dimos
2019-10-08 17:30   ` P
2019-10-08 19:17     ` Dimakakos Dimos
2019-10-10  4:11     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-08 20:18   ` zimoun
2019-10-10  4:15     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-09  8:56   ` Andy Wingo
2019-10-10  4:26     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10 21:41     ` Arun Isaac
2019-10-10 21:53       ` Svante Signell
2019-10-10 22:24     ` František Kučera
2019-10-10  4:09   ` Jean Louis
2019-10-08 16:42 ` Pierre Neidhardt
2019-10-08 16:57   ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
2019-10-09  9:49     ` Pierre Neidhardt
2019-10-09 11:01       ` Tobias Geerinckx-Rice
2019-10-10 16:19 ` Mikhail Kryshen
2019-10-10 22:25   ` Ludovic Courtès
2019-10-10 23:49     ` Catallaxy
2019-10-13  3:55     ` Mikhail Kryshen [this message]
2019-10-13  6:30       ` Jean Louis
2019-10-11 18:41 ` Taylan Kammer
2019-10-11 19:14   ` Dmitry Alexandrov
2019-10-11 21:09   ` Christophe Poncy
2019-10-12 14:43     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-11 23:04   ` Jelle Licht
2019-10-12 18:43     ` Taylan Kammer
2019-10-12 19:09       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2019-10-12 19:26         ` Dmitry Alexandrov
2019-10-12 20:11           ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 19:26         ` P
2019-10-12 21:27           ` Ricardo Wurmus
2019-10-12 21:45       ` Alexander Vdolainen
2019-10-14  1:50         ` Richard Stallman
2019-10-14  1:44       ` Richard Stallman
2019-10-18  3:10     ` Richard Stallman
2019-10-12 13:06   ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 13:38     ` pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)
2019-10-12 14:16       ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 14:27       ` František Kučera
2019-10-12 17:22         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 17:37           ` P
2019-10-12 17:46             ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-12 17:59               ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 17:59               ` P
2019-10-12 18:22                 ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 18:31                   ` P
2019-10-12 18:24                 ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-12 18:32                   ` P
2019-10-12 19:04                     ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-12 19:24                       ` P
2019-10-12 19:28                         ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-12 21:01                           ` František Kučera
2019-10-12 21:23                           ` Reminder about discussions on this list Ricardo Wurmus
2019-10-12 20:52                         ` Joint statement on the GNU Project František Kučera
2019-10-12 21:23                           ` “do not add my address as an explicit recipient” (was: Joint statement on the GNU Project) Dmitry Alexandrov
2019-10-12 18:40                   ` Joint statement on the GNU Project Jean Louis
2019-10-14 13:30               ` zimoun
2019-10-14 16:14                 ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-14 17:13                   ` zimoun
2019-10-14 22:26                     ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-12 17:53             ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 18:03               ` P
2019-10-12 18:14                 ` P
2019-10-14  1:44                   ` Richard Stallman
2019-10-12 18:27                 ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 18:37                   ` P
2019-10-12 18:54                     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 19:20                       ` P
2019-10-12 21:42                         ` František Kučera
2019-10-12 19:33                       ` pelzflorian (Florian Pelz)
2019-10-14  1:44               ` Richard Stallman
2019-10-14  7:51                 ` František Kučera
2019-10-12 15:44       ` Wilson Bustos
2019-10-12 15:50         ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 16:05           ` Eric Myhre
2019-10-12 16:13             ` Jean Louis
2019-10-13 17:24       ` Ingo Ruhnke
2019-10-12 17:08   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2019-10-12 17:26     ` Jean Louis
2019-10-12 15:49 ` brice
2019-10-12 17:36 ` znavko
2019-10-12 17:43   ` P
2019-10-29 14:11 ` Eric Brown
2019-10-29 15:05   ` don catnip
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2019-10-07 21:14 František Kučera
2019-10-07 21:41 ` Ludovic Courtès
2019-10-10  3:45   ` Jean Louis
2019-10-10 10:48     ` František Kučera
2019-10-10  3:40 ` Jean Louis

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