bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

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> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@tcd.ie>
> Date: Sun, 08 May 2022 23:14:12 +0300
>
> First off, thank you very much Protesilae for the new translation of the
> tutorial!

You are welcome and thank you for giving it a try!

[ By the way, what do you think about my choice of word for "buffer"?
  It is the one I had the most doubts about... ]

> [... 14 lines elided]
>
> IOW, the multiline Greek translation of:
>
>   [Middle of page left blank for didactic purposes.   Text continues below]
>
> is either half-erased in short frames, or divided by several blank lines
> in tall frames.
>
> One solution would be to limit the Greek translation to a single line as
> in other translations,

I shortened it to fit on a single line.  See attached patch.

> but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
> this comment, as in the following patch?

Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

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From 81954e132eef82fe32d915204e11312d5961b6c0 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
Message-Id: <81954e132eef82fe32d915204e11312d5961b6c0.1652081988.git.info@protesilaos.com>
From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com>
Date: Mon, 9 May 2022 10:38:23 +0300
Subject: [PATCH] Shorten note about didactic space in TUTORIAL.el_GR (bug#55332)

---
 etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.el_GR | 3 +--
 1 file changed, 1 insertion(+), 2 deletions(-)

diff --git a/etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.el_GR b/etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.el_GR
index e001cc6cce..b34fa5403c 100644
--- a/etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.el_GR
+++ b/etc/tutorials/TUTORIAL.el_GR
@@ -22,8 +22,7 @@ C-c.  (Δύο χαρακτήρες.)  Για να ακυρώσεις μια με
 Οι χαρακτήρες ">>" στο αριστερό περιθώριο δείχνουν οδηγίες για να
 δοκιμάσεις μια εντολή.  Για παράδειγμα:
 <<Blank lines inserted around following line by help-with-tutorial>>
-[Το μέσο της σελίδας παραμένει κενό για διδακτικούς σκοπούς.  Το
-κείμενο συνεχίζεται παρακάτω.]
+[Κενό για διδακτικούς σκοπούς.  Το κείμενο συνεχίζεται παρακάτω.]
 
 >> Τώρα πληκτρολόγησε C-v (δες επόμενη οθόνη) ώστε να κυλήσεις πιο
    κάτω στην παρούσα εκμάθηση.  (Κάνε το, κρατώντας πατημένο το
-- 
2.36.1

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com> writes:

>> but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
>> this comment, as in the following patch?
>
> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.

I'm not quite sure that forward-sexp will do the correct think in all
circumstances (I'm wondering whether there are languages that would be
using parentheses inside that [...] pair).  But I guess it's unlikely.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 10:45:12 +0300
> 
> > but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
> > this comment, as in the following patch?
> 
> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.

I don't object, but if we don't have examples of tutorials that will
use this feature, do we really need it?

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 14:55:33 +0300
>
>> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com>
>> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 10:45:12 +0300
>> 
>> > but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
>> > this comment, as in the following patch?
>> 
>> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.
>
> I don't object, but if we don't have examples of tutorials that will
> use this feature, do we really need it?

There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.

Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com>
> Cc: contovob@tcd.ie, 55332@debbugs.gnu.org, Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 16:12:42 +0300
> 
> > From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> > Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 14:55:33 +0300
> >
> >> From: Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com>
> >> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 10:45:12 +0300
> >> 
> >> > but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
> >> > this comment, as in the following patch?
> >> 
> >> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.
> >
> > I don't object, but if we don't have examples of tutorials that will
> > use this feature, do we really need it?
> 
> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
> 
> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?

I'm okay either way.  Lars?

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
>> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
>> 
>> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?
>
> I'm okay either way.  Lars?

Me too.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Cc: Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com>,  contovob@tcd.ie,
>   55332@debbugs.gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 15:43:43 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
> >> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
> >> 
> >> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?
> >
> > I'm okay either way.  Lars?
> 
> Me too.

Then I guess the easiest is to close the bug, unless Basil disagrees.

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Basil L. Contovounesios via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Protesilaos Stavrou [2022-05-09 10:45 +0300] wrote:

> [ By the way, what do you think about my choice of word for "buffer"?
>   It is the one I had the most doubts about... ]

Hm, I'm not a great judge of Greek translations of computing terms,
because my education has all been in English.

That said, αποσβεστήρας (damper / shock absorber) does not strike me as
the intended meaning of 'buffer' in Emacs:

  buffer noun [1]

  1 an apparatus designed to take the shock when an object such as a
  railway carriage or a ship hits something, especially a device using
  springs, on a railway carriage, etc, or a cushion of rope on a ship.

  2 a person or thing which protects from harm or shock, etc, or makes
  its impact less damaging or severe.

Rather, I think it should be interpreted as:

  3 /computing/ a temporary storage area for data that is being
  transmitted from the central processing unit to an output device such
  as a printer.

Thomas Moraitis' 1990 translation of K&R's The C Programming Language,
2nd Edition refers to a buffer as ενδιάμεση αποθήκευση (intermediate
storage), whereas Wikipedia uses προσωρινή μνήμη (temporary memory) or
ενδιάμεση μνήμη (intermediate memory) [2].

Any of these would be fine with me, but they all lack the uniqueness and
self-containment of αποσβεστήρας :).  In all cases we should probably
avoid στιλβωτικό (polisher/shiner) ;).

[1]: https://chambers.co.uk/search/?title=21st&query=buffer
[2]: https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Προσωρινή_μνήμη_(υπολογιστές)

>> IOW, the multiline Greek translation of:
>>
>>   [Middle of page left blank for didactic purposes.   Text continues below]
>>
>> is either half-erased in short frames, or divided by several blank lines
>> in tall frames.
>>
>> One solution would be to limit the Greek translation to a single line as
>> in other translations,
>
> I shortened it to fit on a single line.  See attached patch.

Thanks,

-- 
Basil

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Basil L. Contovounesios via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

Lars Ingebrigtsen [2022-05-09 12:08 +0200] wrote:

> Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com> writes:
>
>>> but why not instead teach tutorial.el to handle multiline instances of
>>> this comment, as in the following patch?
>>
>> Seems right.  Let's wait to read from the maintainers.
>
> I'm not quite sure that forward-sexp will do the correct think in all
> circumstances (I'm wondering whether there are languages that would be
> using parentheses inside that [...] pair).  But I guess it's unlikely.

An alternative could be (search-forward "]") or (search-forward "]\n").

-- 
Basil

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Basil L. Contovounesios via Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors]

close 55332 29.1
quit

Eli Zaretskii [2022-05-09 09:50 -0400] wrote:

>> From: Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
>> Cc: Protesilaos Stavrou <info@protesilaos.com>,  contovob@tcd.ie,
>>   55332@debbugs.gnu.org
>> Date: Mon, 09 May 2022 15:43:43 +0200
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> >> There is no pressing need for such a change.  I just pushed the change
>> >> that shortens the note in TUTORIAL.el_GR to fit on a single line.
>> >> 
>> >> Should we pursue this further or close the bug report?
>> >
>> > I'm okay either way.  Lars?
>> 
>> Me too.
>
> Then I guess the easiest is to close the bug, unless Basil disagrees.

Me three; closing.

Thanks,

-- 
Basil

bug#55332: 29.0.50; Greek tutorial multiline [...] mishandled

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

> From: "Basil L. Contovounesios" <contovob@tcd.ie>
> Date: Mon, 16 May 2022 15:52:43 +0300
>
> Protesilaos Stavrou [2022-05-09 10:45 +0300] wrote:
>
>> [ By the way, what do you think about my choice of word for "buffer"?
>>   It is the one I had the most doubts about... ]
>
> Hm, I'm not a great judge of Greek translations of computing terms,
> because my education has all been in English.
>
> That said, αποσβεστήρας (damper / shock absorber) does not strike me as
> the intended meaning of 'buffer' in Emacs:
>
>   buffer noun [1]
>
>   1 an apparatus designed to take the shock when an object such as a
>   railway carriage or a ship hits something, especially a device using
>   springs, on a railway carriage, etc, or a cushion of rope on a ship.
>
>   2 a person or thing which protects from harm or shock, etc, or makes
>   its impact less damaging or severe.
>
> Rather, I think it should be interpreted as:
>
>   3 /computing/ a temporary storage area for data that is being
>   transmitted from the central processing unit to an output device such
>   as a printer.
>
> Thomas Moraitis' 1990 translation of K&R's The C Programming Language,
> 2nd Edition refers to a buffer as ενδιάμεση αποθήκευση (intermediate
> storage), whereas Wikipedia uses προσωρινή μνήμη (temporary memory) or
> ενδιάμεση μνήμη (intermediate memory) [2].
>
> Any of these would be fine with me, but they all lack the uniqueness and
> self-containment of αποσβεστήρας :).  In all cases we should probably
> avoid στιλβωτικό (polisher/shiner) ;).
>
> [1]: https://chambers.co.uk/search/?title=21st&query=buffer
> [2]: https://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/Προσωρινή_μνήμη_(υπολογιστές)

Thanks for sharing!  My choice of term was informed by what is described
(and implied) in the TUTORIAL where the "buffer" acts as a cushion: the
user's edits are not written directly to the underlying file.  Though
that also counts as an intermediate object, i.e. intermediate memory...

The other consideration is stylistic.  If we opt for the wording of
"intermediate memory" then we get verbose formulations for concepts like
the buffer list: "list of intermediate memories".  Is "intermediate
memory" countable?  Is the plural form of "memories" correct in this
context?

Remember that I do not have a background in computer science, so these
finer points are not entirely clear to me.  I am happy to edit the
tutorial in the interest of correctness.

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com

bug#55332:

[Romanos Skiadas]

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Hi all,

Basil brought this thread to my attention, what about ενταμιευτής or
μικροενταμιευτής, courtesy of https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/ενταμιευτής.

For example,

Ολοκλήρωση κειμένου στον μικροενταμιευτή.

I think this fits well both conceptually as a meaning and stylistically, it
being one word albeit a bit longer than the original buffer.

Best,
Romanos

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bug#55332: Greek work for "buffer" in TUTORIAL.el_GR (was: bug#55332:)

[Protesilaos Stavrou]

> From: Romanos Skiadas <rom.skiad@gmail.com>
> Date: Tue, 17 May 2022 12:37:57 +0300
>
> Hi all,

Hello Romanos,

> Basil brought this thread to my attention, what about ενταμιευτής or
> μικροενταμιευτής, courtesy of https://el.wiktionary.org/wiki/ενταμιευτής.
>
> For example,
>
> Ολοκλήρωση κειμένου στον μικροενταμιευτή.
>
> I think this fits well both conceptually as a meaning and stylistically, it
> being one word albeit a bit longer than the original buffer.

I like it!  My original choice of term always felt awkward.

Will prepare the update later in the evening.

Thank you!
Protesilaos (or simply "Prot")

-- 
Protesilaos Stavrou
https://protesilaos.com