bug#19479: Copyright issue

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Kelly Dean]

David Kastrup wrote:
> We need to bother with more than the U.S.A.,
> however

Does this mean that all PD code, including feedmail.el, needs to be deleted from Emacs? The authors of that code don't satisfy the not-USA countries' supposed requirements of having been dead for 75 years or so.

> one can only register specific works which means it is not
> possible to register them before they are even created.

Ouch. Unfortunately, I've been busy and have had no time for proper preparation, so I'll parry your blow next week. ;-)

Anyway, my patch that Glenn objected to was created in the past, not the future, so at least that one is ok.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Kelly Dean]

I wrote:
> Anyway, my patch that Glenn objected to was created in the past, not the future, so at least that one is ok.

Actually my future patches are ok too.

http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.program says:
⌜Digital Stimulation Corporation hereby disclaims all copyright interest
  in the program "seduce" (a program to direct assemblers to make passes at
  compilers under GNU Emacs) written by Hugh Heffner, including both the
  present version of the program and his/her future changes and
  enhancements to it.⌝

Notice the disclaimer applies to future work. Which means my disclaimer applying to future work is effective.

If the FSF thinks it has to register those PD works (which would be absurd, but absurdity has never stopped lawyers), that's a separate issue from the one-time disclaimer (covering past and future work) that the disclaim.program file shows that the FSF does accept. It isn't any extra burden for the FSF compared to assignment, since obviously the FSF can only register intellectual property ownership of assigned works after those works are created too, so the FSF still has to constantly (or annually or whatever) send new paperwork to the copyright office even for contributors who have signed an assignment form. IOW, Stefan keeps the lawyers a lot busier than I do. ;-)

But again, even if for some weird reason the lawyers think my disclaimer for future work isn't effective, it certainly is effective for my previous work, including my patch for bug #19479. (And if it isn't, then they're welcome to point out what's wrong with it, and send me a disclaimer form that _is_ effective, which I asked for already in 2012). If necessary, I can re-date and re-sign it in the future to cover new work, which is fine since my contributions to Emacs are infrequent.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Stefan Monnier]

All this arguing just to try and avoid signing the standard document
baffles me,


        Stefan


>>>>> "Kelly" == Kelly Dean <kelly@prtime.org> writes:

> I wrote:
>> Anyway, my patch that Glenn objected to was created in the past, not the
>> future, so at least that one is ok.

> Actually my future patches are ok too.

> http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.program says:
> ⌜Digital Stimulation Corporation hereby disclaims all copyright interest
>   in the program "seduce" (a program to direct assemblers to make passes at
>   compilers under GNU Emacs) written by Hugh Heffner, including both the
>   present version of the program and his/her future changes and
>   enhancements to it.⌝

> Notice the disclaimer applies to future work. Which means my disclaimer
> applying to future work is effective.

> If the FSF thinks it has to register those PD works (which would be absurd,
> but absurdity has never stopped lawyers), that's a separate issue from the
> one-time disclaimer (covering past and future work) that the
> disclaim.program file shows that the FSF does accept. It isn't any extra
> burden for the FSF compared to assignment, since obviously the FSF can only
> register intellectual property ownership of assigned works after those works
> are created too, so the FSF still has to constantly (or annually or
> whatever) send new paperwork to the copyright office even for contributors
> who have signed an assignment form. IOW, Stefan keeps the lawyers a lot
> busier than I do. ;-)

> But again, even if for some weird reason the lawyers think my disclaimer for
> future work isn't effective, it certainly is effective for my previous work,
> including my patch for bug #19479. (And if it isn't, then they're welcome to
> point out what's wrong with it, and send me a disclaimer form that _is_
> effective, which I asked for already in 2012). If necessary, I can re-date
> and re-sign it in the future to cover new work, which is fine since my
> contributions to Emacs are infrequent.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Kelly Dean]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
> All this arguing just to try and avoid signing the standard document
> baffles me

If I sign an assignment document, then I would be committing perjury. Possibly in the legal sense, and at least in the moral sense.

And there isn't just one standard document. There are at least five; three for disclaimers, and two for assignments. I asked the clerk to choose the correct disclaimer for me. If he'd done it, none of this arguing would be necessary.

All of which I already pointed out, so I'm baffled by your bafflement.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Stefan Monnier]

> If I sign an assignment document, then I would be committing perjury.

No, the assignment document is just for the Emacs code you wrote and
whose copyright you own.  It simply doesn't apply to the code whose
copyright you don't own (which normally only happens when the copyright
is owned by your employer).


        Stefan

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Kelly Dean]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> If I sign an assignment document, then I would be committing perjury.
>
> No, the assignment document is just for the Emacs code you wrote and
> whose copyright you own.  It simply doesn't apply to the code whose
> copyright you don't own (which normally only happens when the copyright
> is owned by your employer).

I don't have a copy of it handy, but if that's the way it's worded, then you're right, it wouldn't be illegal for me to sign it. It would only be immoral. It would be legally vacuous, and deceptive, leading to doubt about my intent.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Werner LEMBERG]

>> No, the assignment document is just for the Emacs code you wrote
>> and whose copyright you own.  It simply doesn't apply to the code
>> whose copyright you don't own (which normally only happens when the
>> copyright is owned by your employer).
> 
> I don't have a copy of it handy, but if that's the way it's worded,
> then you're right, it wouldn't be illegal for me to sign it. It
> would only be immoral. It would be legally vacuous, and deceptive,
> leading to doubt about my intent.

Perhaps slightly off-topic, but quite relevant IMHO in a global
perspective:

It is *not* possible to create not-copyrighted code in some
jurisdictions like Germany.  Whatever you write, it is by default
copyrighted by you (regardless whether there is a `public domain' line
or not), and you have to explicitly disclaim or reassign the
copyright.

For this reason, it is *much* better to use a license like CC0 instead
of a public domain notice, since this covers the `public domain' idea
in virtually all countries.  Actually, this is what the FSF recommends
(https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.en.html#CC0), and I guess
this works for emacs also, since it works already for GNU (according
to https://gcc.gnu.org/contribute.html#legal).


    Werner

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

Instead of having a discussion here, please let me get this worked out
between Kelly and our clerk, with the help of lawyers when needed.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

In general, we do accept code whose copyright has been disclaimed by
the author.  That is not our preference, but it is ok.

Would you please discuss this privately with me and the copyright clerk?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
President, Free Software Foundation
51 Franklin St
Boston MA 02110
USA
www.fsf.org  www.gnu.org
Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software.
  Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call.

bug#19479: Package manager vulnerable

[Stefan Monnier]

>> You're one of the very rare oddballs who can't
>> be bothered to sign a trivial document to get this out of the way
> That's not true. I offered to sign a document saying my work is PD.

I didn't mean "a trivial document" in the sense "any trivial document",
but rather "the particular trivial document that everybody else signed".


        Stefan

bug#19479: Package manager vulnerable

[Kelly Dean]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
> You're one of the very rare oddballs who can't
> be bothered to sign a trivial document to get this out of the way

That's not true. I offered to sign a document saying my work is PD.

The following say that's an option:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.manual
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.changes.manual
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.program

The copyright clerk declined my offer.

bug#19479: Package manager vulnerable

[Kelly Dean]

Glenn Morris wrote:
> I appreciate the spirit of wanting to provide a patch, but unless you
> have changed your position on the Emacs copyright assignment, I don't
> see that this patch can be used by Emacs.

I did do what you requested: submit a bug report, but not a patch. But this isn't just a bug; it's a security vulnerability, and Stefan invited me to submit a patch to fix it. So then I did.

Regarding the copyright issue, please don't conflate two separate issues like your copyright clerk tried to.

The first issue is: does the FSF want any more public domain code in Emacs than is already there? The answer is ‟no”, as explained by Donald R Robertson III, your copyright clerk, on February 19, 2013. When explaining why the FSF wouldn't accept my PD code, he wrote, ‟It really is more beneficial for our enforcement efforts if we get the work assigned instead of 'disclaimed'. We will only accept a disclaimer instead of an assignment in particular circumstances.”

Of course, he's right; PD code isn't useful for your enforcement efforts, but it's absurd to say it's an issue for my patches, which even including this latest one, amount to no more than a few parts per million of the Emacs code base. Obviously it doesn't hurt your efforts; no copyright judge is going to care if Emacs has a few lines of Hamlet or any other PD information in it. The judge will let you sue people for GPL violations just the same.

Anyway, the first issue is clear: new PD code is unwelcome in Emacs. Emacs is your project, not mine, so regardless of how silly I think your exclusion of PD code is, I abided (and still abide) by your wishes. I submitted this patch because Stefan invited me to. Maybe Stefan just forgot that you asked me not to submit any more patches, but I assumed he invited this patch because a security vulnerability counted as a ‟particular circumstance” that your copyright clerk mentioned.

The second issue is: is my code in the public domain? The answer is ‟yes”; the author of SQLite says that's PD, and it is, the author of Qmail says that's PD, and it is, and I'm simply doing the same thing they are. My code is in the public domain. If you want, I can PGP-sign and publish on my website a statement that my patches are PD, even though that's more than the authors of SQLite and Qmail deemed necessary for their code.

Your clerk wrote, ‟placing a work in the public domain is difficult/may not be possible”. But that's obviously false, as proven by his statement that you do (sometimes) accept disclaimers, and as proven by the general legal acceptance of other people's statements that their work is PD, including highly respected authors such as Richard Hipp.

It's clear that the second issue is not an issue, especially in the United States, which is where I am, and the only purpose served by the FSF bringing it up is clouding the first issue, which is the only real issue.

I recommend not rejecting a patch to fix a security vulnerability just for the sake of keeping 29 lines of new PD code out of Emacs. If it really is too much PD code, then I recommend deleting feedmail.el (PD) to compensate.

bug#19479: Copyright issue (was: Re: bug#19479: Package manager vulnerable)

[Kelly Dean]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4230 bytes --]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> You're one of the very rare oddballs who can't
>>> be bothered to sign a trivial document to get this out of the way
>> That's not true. I offered to sign a document saying my work is PD.
>
> I didn't mean "a trivial document" in the sense "any trivial document",
> but rather "the particular trivial document that everybody else signed".

The FSF doesn't have just one document for contributors; it has multiples, three of which I linked to in my previous message, and at least two more that are for assignment instead of disclaimer (one for only past contributions, and one for past and future contributions).

More than two years ago, I asked the copyright clerk to send me a disclaimer form to sign. He refused. This is the _only_ reason that the FSF doesn't already have a disclaimer on file for me.

If I sign an assignment document (i.e. saying that I own intellectual property for my work and that I'm assigning that ownership to the FSF), then I would just be committing perjury, because I don't own PD works. Nothing I sign can remove anything from the public domain.

Again, please don't conflate two separate issues:
0. The FSF is refusing new PD code in Emacs. (I would be happy to learn that I'm mistaken about this.)
1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching a signed document to establish it.)

Because the clerk refused to send me anything to sign that would establish #1 to the FSF's satisfaction, today I printed, signed, and scanned the attached document based on the disclaimer forms the FSF has published, to make it abundantly clear that my work is PD and that the FSF is free to use my work with no legal restrictions whatsoever.

I'm also CCing it to assign@gnu.org, even though at this point I assume the clerk will come up with some excuse to reject it.

If the clerk feels this doesn't make #1 clear enough, then please tell me what needs to change. Even better, send me the exact disclaimer form you want me to sign, which I asked for in the first place.

I repeat: nothing I sign can remove anything from the public domain. So nothing I sign can assign to the FSF ownership of my work; if assignment is what the FSF insists on, then it's asking for the impossible.

The attached document is to establish #1 to the FSF's satisfaction. The FSF alone has the ability to solve #0; it has nothing to do with me.

Here's the text of the attached document:

This document is derived from the following sources:
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.manual
http://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/gnulib.git/plain/doc/Copyright/disclaim.program

I, Kelly Dean, American citizen and resident, hereby disclaim all patent, copyright, and all other forms of intellectual property ownership of and interest in all of my patches, software manuals, software programs, source code, documentation, revisions thereof, and all other works, past, present, and future, that I sent or will send to the emacs-devel@gnu.org or bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org mailing lists, to 19479@debbugs.gnu.org, to any other mailing list or email address at gnu.org or any subdomain thereof, or to any developer or maintainer of GNU Emacs or any other GNU software, from my previous (no longer active) email address of kellydeanch@yahoo.com, my current email address of kelly@prtime.org, or any other email address.

I affirm that I have no other proprietary interest that would undermine this release, and will do nothing to undermine it in the future. I represent that all of the aforementioned works are my own and not a copy of someone else's work, except where sources are cited. Patches include citations and partial copies of the works to which the patches apply.

I created all of the works exclusively on my own time. They are not works made for hire, and there's no educational institution, employer, or any other organization or person who owns them. I do not have any agreement with any person or organization saying he or it owns programs I write, and I did not have any such agreement when I created any of the aforementioned works.

All of the works are permanently and irrevocably in the public domain.

Kelly Dean
kelly@prtime.org
January 8, 2015


[-- Attachment #2: gnu-disclaimer.pdf --]
[-- Type: application/pdf, Size: 29848 bytes --]

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Stefan Monnier]

> 1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching
>    a signed document to establish it.)

It can't be PD.  You're simply confused about it.  It will only be PD 75
years after your death (or something like that).  Until then, all you
can do is sign paperworks, and currently for Emacs contributions we
require this paperwork to be a copyright assignment rather than
a disclaimer.


        Stefan

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[David Kastrup]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

>> 1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching
>>    a signed document to establish it.)
>
> It can't be PD.  You're simply confused about it.  It will only be PD
> 75 years after your death (or something like that).

If I remember correctly, if he is living in the U.S.A. and registers a
specific work with the U.S. copyright office as being released by him
into the public domain, then the work will indeed be in the public
domain within the U.S.A.  We need to bother with more than the U.S.A.,
however, and one can only register specific works which means it is not
possible to register them before they are even created.

-- 
David Kastrup

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Kelly Dean]

Stefan Monnier wrote:
>> 1. My code is PD. (In case the FSF disputes this fact, I'm attaching
>>    a signed document to establish it.)
>
> It can't be PD.  You're simply confused about it.  It will only be PD 75
> years after your death (or something like that).  Until then, all you
> can do is sign paperworks, and currently for Emacs contributions we
> require this paperwork to be a copyright assignment rather than
> a disclaimer.

GNU's own website says it can be PD. The documents at the three links I sent you start with:
⌜I'd like to ask you to sign a disclaimer for the manual, thus putting it in the public domain.⌝
⌜I'd like to ask you to sign a disclaimer for the program, thus putting it in the public domain.⌝
⌜I'd like to ask you to sign a disclaimer for your changes, thus putting them in the public domain.⌝

Notice the ⌜thus putting them in the public domain⌝.

Also, do you claim that SQLite is not PD? The author, Richard Hipp, says it's PD, and the many millions of users of SQLite, including many major companies with lots of copyright lawyers, accept the legal fact that it's PD. And Richard Hipp is not dead.

Also, do you claim that feedmail.el is not PD? The first lines of it are:
;;; feedmail.el --- assist other email packages to massage outgoing messages
;;; This file is in the public domain.

;; This file is part of GNU Emacs.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Glenn Morris]

I must say, that it was not my impression that disclaimers were not
accaptable for Emacs. Only that the FSF does not offer a "past and
future" option for disclaimers like it does for assignments, so a new
disclaimer would have to be completed for every new change. I thought
this was not worth bothering with, so I advised you not to send more patches.

But I certainly don't know, I just go with whatever assign@gnu says.

I don't see much point discussing this on emacs-devel. None of us are
lawyers so our opinions are pretty irrelevant. We need to wait and see
what assign@gnu says.

bug#19479: Copyright issue

[Glenn Morris]

Glenn Morris wrote:

> I must say, that it was not my impression that disclaimers were not
> accaptable for Emacs. Only that the FSF does not offer a "past and
> future" option for disclaimers like it does for assignments, so a new
> disclaimer would have to be completed for every new change. I thought
> this was not worth bothering with, so I advised you not to send more patches.

PS but yes, for a non-trivial security issue like 19479 it did seem
worth it to me, so I was on the verge of saying, would you be willing to
complete a disclaimer for this change. But then Stefan said disclaimers
were not viable, so I didn't bother to say it.