New logo and website design proposal

New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

Hello list,

As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these visual 
modifications for the logo and the website.

Logo
https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png

Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png

My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image of 
the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.


Your comments are very welcomed,

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Mathieu Lirzin]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> writes:

> Hello list,
>
> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these
> visual modifications for the logo and the website.
>
> Logo
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
>
> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>
> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image
> of the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>
>
> Your comments are very welcomed,

Amazing! If you need help on the SXML part I'm willing to help.

--
Mathieu Lirzin

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-15 14:43, Mathieu Lirzin wrote:
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> writes:
> 
>> Hello list,
>> 
>> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these
>> visual modifications for the logo and the website.
>> 
>> Logo
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
>> 
>> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>> 
>> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image
>> of the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>> 
>> 
>> Your comments are very welcomed,
> 
> Amazing! If you need help on the SXML part I'm willing to help.
> 

Thanks Mathieu, and your help is very welcomed. I'll let you know if 
there is green light :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[David Pirotte]

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Hi Luis,

Cool work, many thanks!

I'll read carefully and if I feel like I should, I'll provide some more [personal]
feedback, but as an overall and quick look, it really is nice.

> Logo
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png

I would prefer the capital G of guile to be like the one of GNU just below the logo,
what do others think?  I'm not a designer though, so just a personnal 'feeling'.

If only 1 has to be selected, I'd keep the red based, it's the more 'powerful'
set, imo.

> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png

> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image of 
> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.

This is definitely going to impact potential users, I think, thanks for doing this!

Do you have the site source code somewhere we could look at it and maybe patch?

Thanks again,
Cheers,
David

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Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-15 16:05, David Pirotte wrote:
> Hi Luis,
> 
> Cool work, many thanks!
> 
> I'll read carefully and if I feel like I should, I'll provide some
> more [personal]
> feedback, but as an overall and quick look, it really is nice.
> 

Glad you like it, David, thanks :)

>> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
> 
>> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image 
>> of
>> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
> 
> This is definitely going to impact potential users, I think, thanks
> for doing this!
> 
> Do you have the site source code somewhere we could look at it and 
> maybe patch?
> 

No code yet, the mock-up is an SVG drawing. I'm waiting for feedback on 
the general design first before implementing anything.

Thanks for the feedback, David :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Nala Ginrut]

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Really cool！my two cents
On 2015-09-15 16:05, David Pirotte wrote:

> Hi Luis,
>
> Cool work, many thanks!
>
> I'll read carefully and if I feel like I should, I'll provide some
> more [personal]
> feedback, but as an overall and quick look, it really is nice.
>
>
Glad you like it, David, thanks :)

Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
>>
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>>
>
> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image of
>> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>>
>
> This is definitely going to impact potential users, I think, thanks
> for doing this!
>
> Do you have the site source code somewhere we could look at it and maybe
> patch?
>
>
No code yet, the mock-up is an SVG drawing. I'm waiting for feedback on the
general design first before implementing anything.

Thanks for the feedback, David :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

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Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Christopher Allan Webber]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:

> Hello list,
>
> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these visual 
> modifications for the logo and the website.
>
> Logo
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
>
> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>
> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image of 
> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>
>
> Your comments are very welcomed,

First of all, I think this looks *amazing*!  Will it keep these kind of
nice black and white drawings, or will the final result have a more
refined look?  Either way, I like the childrens' book type
illustrations.  (My request would be that if they do become colored, the
two children-programmers whose bodies are somewhat visible have
different skin tones for diversity reasons.  I think they look gender
ambiguous enough because of the suits.)  Honestly I think the rough
black and white versions look very nice as-is though, and I am not sure
how to color them without a kind of watercolor look.  Very "Where the
Wild Things Are" meets robots.  A good combination!

Second, a friend of mine pointed out a couple of things:

 - The "Guile is an extension language platform" section gives the
   impression maybe overly that it's an extension language far and above
   being an independent language.  Guile is certainly optimized for
   this, especially for legacy reasons, but more and more Guile
   applications seem to be written entirely within Guile itself.  Maybe
   the text could be something like:

     "Guile contains a neat and highly optimized virtual machine.
     It can be used out of the box to write programs in Scheme, or
     can easily be integrated with C and C++ programs.

     Guile is the GNU Ubiquitous Intelligent Language for Extensions,
     and the official extension language of the GNU project."
   
   That's a bit more verbose than the present text; I wonder if it can
   be cleaned up?

 - It may be nice to show code examples.  Lisp is often interpreted as
   being hard to read; I have found that a nice theme and
   rainbow-parentheses has reduced that fear for some users.  Here's
   some examples of screenshots I have taken of my own emacs with
   various lisps... none of them are perfect, and this isn't scheme
   code, but to get the general idea:

     http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_lisp_setup.png
       ^- Probably could do without the highlighting?

     http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs-rainbow-all-the-things.png
       ^- Probably could do without the rainbow-delimeters?

     http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_wombat.png
       ^- Something different, but also a nice theme

   I'm not 100% confident on this; showing "real code" might actually
   clutter things or make things more intimidating.  The present
   design I think is fairly intimidation-free.

Anyway, what do you think?

I love the designs... keep on rocking!  I can't wait to see this
deployed!

 - Chris

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-15 16:31, Christopher Allan Webber wrote:
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:
> 
>> Hello list,
>> 
>> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these 
>> visual
>> modifications for the logo and the website.
>> 
>> Logo
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
>> 
>> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>> 
>> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image 
>> of
>> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>> 
>> 
>> Your comments are very welcomed,
> 
> First of all, I think this looks *amazing*!  Will it keep these kind of
> nice black and white drawings, or will the final result have a more
> refined look?  Either way, I like the childrens' book type
> illustrations.  (My request would be that if they do become colored, 
> the
> two children-programmers whose bodies are somewhat visible have
> different skin tones for diversity reasons.  I think they look gender
> ambiguous enough because of the suits.)  Honestly I think the rough
> black and white versions look very nice as-is though, and I am not sure
> how to color them without a kind of watercolor look.  Very "Where the
> Wild Things Are" meets robots.  A good combination!
> 

Ah, yes, the drawings are supposed to be just black and white. 
Personally, I also like the rough drawings as they are right now, but I 
will try to clean them or replace them if people don't like them.

Also, diversity, of course... That and simplicity are the reasons for 
using suits.

> Second, a friend of mine pointed out a couple of things:
> 
>  - The "Guile is an extension language platform" section gives the
>    impression maybe overly that it's an extension language far and 
> above
>    being an independent language.  Guile is certainly optimized for
>    this, especially for legacy reasons, but more and more Guile
>    applications seem to be written entirely within Guile itself.  Maybe
>    the text could be something like:
> 
>      "Guile contains a neat and highly optimized virtual machine.
>      It can be used out of the box to write programs in Scheme, or
>      can easily be integrated with C and C++ programs.
> 
>      Guile is the GNU Ubiquitous Intelligent Language for Extensions,
>      and the official extension language of the GNU project."
> 
>    That's a bit more verbose than the present text; I wonder if it can
>    be cleaned up?
> 


I'll let experts discuss this one.


>  - It may be nice to show code examples.  Lisp is often interpreted as
>    being hard to read; I have found that a nice theme and
>    rainbow-parentheses has reduced that fear for some users.  Here's
>    some examples of screenshots I have taken of my own emacs with
>    various lisps... none of them are perfect, and this isn't scheme
>    code, but to get the general idea:
> 
>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_lisp_setup.png
>        ^- Probably could do without the highlighting?
> 
>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs-rainbow-all-the-things.png
>        ^- Probably could do without the rainbow-delimeters?
> 
>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_wombat.png
>        ^- Something different, but also a nice theme
> 
>    I'm not 100% confident on this; showing "real code" might actually
>    clutter things or make things more intimidating.  The present
>    design I think is fairly intimidation-free.
> 

I was going to include a section with code, but didn't know what kind of 
code to include. Something short, meaningful for beginners, and enough 
to see the syntax... I don't know. However, I don't mind if the code is 
saved for the manuals and tutorials.

> Anyway, what do you think?
> 
> I love the designs... keep on rocking!  I can't wait to see this
> deployed!
> 
>  - Chris

Thank you very much, Cris. Glad you like them :)

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hello!

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these
> visual modifications for the logo and the website.
>
> Logo
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png

I like it!

> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>
> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image
> of the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.

This is amazing!  I really like the web site mockup.  The drawings are
just awesome.

Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:

> First of all, I think this looks *amazing*!  Will it keep these kind of
> nice black and white drawings, or will the final result have a more
> refined look?  Either way, I like the childrens' book type
> illustrations.  (My request would be that if they do become colored, the
> two children-programmers whose bodies are somewhat visible have
> different skin tones for diversity reasons.  I think they look gender
> ambiguous enough because of the suits.)  Honestly I think the rough
> black and white versions look very nice as-is though, and I am not sure
> how to color them without a kind of watercolor look.  Very "Where the
> Wild Things Are" meets robots.  A good combination!

I would leave them as is; I think it’s fine without colors.

> Second, a friend of mine pointed out a couple of things:
>
>  - The "Guile is an extension language platform" section gives the
>    impression maybe overly that it's an extension language far and above
>    being an independent language.  Guile is certainly optimized for
>    this, especially for legacy reasons, but more and more Guile
>    applications seem to be written entirely within Guile itself.

+1

>  Maybe the text could be something like:
>
>      "Guile contains a neat and highly optimized virtual machine.

Or rather “… an efficient compiler and virtual machine.”

>      It can be used out of the box to write programs in Scheme, or
>      can easily be integrated with C and C++ programs.
>
>      Guile is the GNU Ubiquitous Intelligent Language for Extensions,
>      and the official extension language of the GNU project."

+1

>  - It may be nice to show code examples.  Lisp is often interpreted as
>    being hard to read; I have found that a nice theme and
>    rainbow-parentheses has reduced that fear for some users.  Here's
>    some examples of screenshots I have taken of my own emacs with
>    various lisps... none of them are perfect, and this isn't scheme
>    code, but to get the general idea:
>
>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_lisp_setup.png
>        ^- Probably could do without the highlighting?
>
>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs-rainbow-all-the-things.png
>        ^- Probably could do without the rainbow-delimeters?
>
>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_wombat.png
>        ^- Something different, but also a nice theme
>
>    I'm not 100% confident on this; showing "real code" might actually
>    clutter things or make things more intimidating.  The present
>    design I think is fairly intimidation-free.

Maybe these could go under “Getting Started”?

I like what racket-lang.org does with the cycling code examples.  An
option would be to still their idea (and code? ;-)).

Other comments:

  • In the “Extend applications” part, I would remove Lua, move ECMA to
    the back on the drawing, and add Scheme to the front; we might even
    replace ECMA with C.  In general, we don’t want to emphasize
    multiple-language support, so I would also remove it from the
    heading.

  • The “Applications” part is a good idea.  Unfortunately, we cannot
    (yet!) have LilyPond there (its port to Guile 2.0 is incomplete) and
    TeXmacs (not sure what the status is.)

    Perhaps Guile-Charting, Guile-Present, or Guile-OpenGL would make
    for a nice picture, or maybe Guile-SSH for a black terminal-like
    geeky image?

  • I noticed with the Guix web site that “Help” is a bit confusing
    since it’s about getting help and not about helping out
    (contributing).

  • I think we can remove “Blog”, but a news section would be welcome,
    possibly with a preview on the main page as you did for Guix?

Thanks a lot!

Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-21 15:40, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Hello!
> 
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these
>> visual modifications for the logo and the website.
>> 
>> Logo
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
> 
> I like it!
> 
>> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>> 
>> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image
>> of the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
> 
> This is amazing!  I really like the web site mockup.  The drawings are
> just awesome.


Glad to hear that :)


> Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:
> 
>> First of all, I think this looks *amazing*!  Will it keep these kind 
>> of
>> nice black and white drawings, or will the final result have a more
>> refined look?  Either way, I like the childrens' book type
>> illustrations.  (My request would be that if they do become colored, 
>> the
>> two children-programmers whose bodies are somewhat visible have
>> different skin tones for diversity reasons.  I think they look gender
>> ambiguous enough because of the suits.)  Honestly I think the rough
>> black and white versions look very nice as-is though, and I am not 
>> sure
>> how to color them without a kind of watercolor look.  Very "Where the
>> Wild Things Are" meets robots.  A good combination!
> 
> I would leave them as is; I think it’s fine without colors.
> 
>> Second, a friend of mine pointed out a couple of things:
>> 
>>  - The "Guile is an extension language platform" section gives the
>>    impression maybe overly that it's an extension language far and 
>> above
>>    being an independent language.  Guile is certainly optimized for
>>    this, especially for legacy reasons, but more and more Guile
>>    applications seem to be written entirely within Guile itself.
> 
> +1
> 
>>  Maybe the text could be something like:
>> 
>>      "Guile contains a neat and highly optimized virtual machine.
> 
> Or rather “… an efficient compiler and virtual machine.”
> 
>>      It can be used out of the box to write programs in Scheme, or
>>      can easily be integrated with C and C++ programs.
>> 
>>      Guile is the GNU Ubiquitous Intelligent Language for Extensions,
>>      and the official extension language of the GNU project."
> 
> +1


Ok, I'm taking note of this.


>>  - It may be nice to show code examples.  Lisp is often interpreted as
>>    being hard to read; I have found that a nice theme and
>>    rainbow-parentheses has reduced that fear for some users.  Here's
>>    some examples of screenshots I have taken of my own emacs with
>>    various lisps... none of them are perfect, and this isn't scheme
>>    code, but to get the general idea:
>> 
>>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_lisp_setup.png
>>        ^- Probably could do without the highlighting?
>> 
>>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs-rainbow-all-the-things.png
>>        ^- Probably could do without the rainbow-delimeters?
>> 
>>      http://dustycloud.org/tmp/emacs_wombat.png
>>        ^- Something different, but also a nice theme
>> 
>>    I'm not 100% confident on this; showing "real code" might actually
>>    clutter things or make things more intimidating.  The present
>>    design I think is fairly intimidation-free.
> 
> Maybe these could go under “Getting Started”?
> 
> I like what racket-lang.org does with the cycling code examples.  An
> option would be to still their idea (and code? ;-)).


I'll add a code section then, with placeholder examples.


> Other comments:
> 
>   • In the “Extend applications” part, I would remove Lua, move ECMA to
>     the back on the drawing, and add Scheme to the front; we might even
>     replace ECMA with C.  In general, we don’t want to emphasize
>     multiple-language support, so I would also remove it from the
>     heading.


OK.


>   • The “Applications” part is a good idea.  Unfortunately, we cannot
>     (yet!) have LilyPond there (its port to Guile 2.0 is incomplete) 
> and
>     TeXmacs (not sure what the status is.)
> 
>     Perhaps Guile-Charting, Guile-Present, or Guile-OpenGL would make
>     for a nice picture, or maybe Guile-SSH for a black terminal-like
>     geeky image?

OK.

>   • I noticed with the Guix web site that “Help” is a bit confusing
>     since it’s about getting help and not about helping out
>     (contributing).

OK. How about "Learn"?


>   • I think we can remove “Blog”, but a news section would be welcome,
>     possibly with a preview on the main page as you did for Guix?

OK. My idea was to use a Haunt blog, in a git repository where people in 
the community could contribute posts about anything Guile...

> Thanks a lot!
> 
> Ludo’.

Thanks for the feedback, Ludo’ :)


With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the mockup 
this weekend to include the suggested changes.

I'll be alert to any other comments in the meantime.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> On 2015-09-21 15:40, ludo@gnu.org wrote:

[...]

>>   • I noticed with the Guix web site that “Help” is a bit confusing
>>     since it’s about getting help and not about helping out
>>     (contributing).
>
> OK. How about "Learn"?

Sounds good; seems less ambiguous to me.

>>   • I think we can remove “Blog”, but a news section would be welcome,
>>     possibly with a preview on the main page as you did for Guix?
>
> OK. My idea was to use a Haunt blog, in a git repository where people
> in the community could contribute posts about anything Guile...

I see.  I was thinking that people either already have their personal
blog or don’t have a blog at all, so a common blog may not work that
well.  Dunno.

> With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
> mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.

Awesome, thanks!

Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-23 11:18, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
> 
> With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
> mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.
> 

Hi,

I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a 
copy of the built site from here:

   
https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz

To try it out:

    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent in 
Guile

Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.

The source files are available in this provisional repository:

     https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/guile-website

All pages of the current website are migrated to the new style, except 
for the following:

* News <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/news.html>. I'm currently 
linking to Savannah to display all news.
* Community <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/community.html>. Should 
we add a Community page and link to the main menu? Or do we use the 
About page to list the contact info listed in the current Community 
page?
* Cool Ideas <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/ideas.html>. Could these 
be added to Savannah task tracker instead?
* Graphics <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/graphics/> I don't know 
what to do with this one yet.

Some other things to do:

* Fetch news from Savannah for the latest news in the home page.
* Update illustration to remove reference to Lua.

This is an overview of the website source directory structure:

     guile-website
     ├── README
     └── website
         ├── apps             <- This is how a website is extended: Blog, 
PMS, Gallery, etc.
         ├── static           <- Name-spaced assets for the website apps.
         ├── resources.scm    <- A list of all the resources of the 
website to be built (HTML, RSS, etc.)
         └── utils.scm        <- Common variables, URL helpers, etc.

I didn't add the code I'm using for building/testing the website because 
it's hideous, and you may want to write your own code for building 
anyways (à la GuixSD).

I'm willing to change any silly things you see in the code, so don't 
hesitate to ask :)

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Amirouche Boubekki]

Le 2015-10-10 00:24, Luis Felipe López Acevedo a écrit :
> On 2015-09-23 11:18, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
>> 
>> With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
>> mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.
>> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a
> copy of the built site from here:
> 
>   
> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
> 
> To try it out:
> 
>    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent in 
> Guile
> 
> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.
> 

Le 2015-10-10 00:24, Luis Felipe López Acevedo a écrit :
> On 2015-09-23 11:18, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
>> 
>> With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
>> mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.
>> 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a
> copy of the built site from here:
> 
>   
> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
> 

It looks good! Maybe because I'm getting use to it ;)

More seriously, it always looked good. It doesn't look 'unsophisticated'
(what I called previously 'childish') at all over multiple pages. The
scheme wizards are well represented.

And it definitely makes Guile more welcoming.

I happy that everybody agree that this is the way forward for Guile 
community. I'm also happy to see more people interested in accessibility
and more people acknowledging "worse is better/more accessible".


Thanks everybody!

> The source files are available in this provisional repository:
> 
>     https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/guile-website
> 
> All pages of the current website are migrated to the new style, except
> for the following:
> 
> * News <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/news.html>. I'm currently
> linking to Savannah to display all news.
> * Community <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/community.html>. Should
> we add a Community page and link to the main menu? Or do we use the
> About page to list the contact info listed in the current Community
> page?
> * Cool Ideas <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/ideas.html>. Could
> these be added to Savannah task tracker instead?
> * Graphics <http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/graphics/> I don't know
> what to do with this one yet.
> 
> Some other things to do:
> 
> * Fetch news from Savannah for the latest news in the home page.
> * Update illustration to remove reference to Lua.
> 
> This is an overview of the website source directory structure:
> 
>     guile-website
>     ├── README
>     └── website
>         ├── apps             <- This is how a website is extended:
> Blog, PMS, Gallery, etc.
>         ├── static           <- Name-spaced assets for the website 
> apps.
>         ├── resources.scm    <- A list of all the resources of the
> website to be built (HTML, RSS, etc.)
>         └── utils.scm        <- Common variables, URL helpers, etc.
> 
> I didn't add the code I'm using for building/testing the website
> because it's hideous, and you may want to write your own code for
> building anyways (à la GuixSD).
> 
> I'm willing to change any silly things you see in the code, so don't
> hesitate to ask :)

-- 
Amirouche ~ amz3 ~ http://www.hyperdev.fr

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Christopher Allan Webber]

Excellent!  I can't wait to see this go live! \o/

Thanks for all your hard work Luis / sirgzil :)

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Thompson, David]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo
<felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:
> On 2015-09-23 11:18, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
>>
>>
>> With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
>> mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.
>>
>
> Hi,
>
> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a copy of
> the built site from here:
>
>   https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>
> To try it out:
>
>    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent in Guile

Not nearly so convenient, but Haunt (my static site generator) comes
with such a simple web server:

   guile -c "((@ (haunt serve web-server) serve) (getcwd))" # run
static web server on port 8080

Maybe Guile core could use a basic static file web server?  I used to
use the above Python snippet a lot.

> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.

It looks great!  Thanks for sharing!  Now, who can help you make the
final edits and get it live?

- Dave

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-10 12:24, Thompson, David wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo
> <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:
>> On 2015-09-23 11:18, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
>>> mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.
>>> 
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a 
>> copy of
>> the built site from here:
>> 
>>   
>> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>> 
>> To try it out:
>> 
>>    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>>    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent in 
>> Guile
> 
> Not nearly so convenient, but Haunt (my static site generator) comes
> with such a simple web server:
> 
>    guile -c "((@ (haunt serve web-server) serve) (getcwd))" # run
> static web server on port 8080


But good to know. I'll use this when migrating my website to Guile :)


> Maybe Guile core could use a basic static file web server?  I used to
> use the above Python snippet a lot.
> 
>> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.
> 
> It looks great!  Thanks for sharing!  Now, who can help you make the
> final edits and get it live?

Thanks, David, and thanks Amirouche and Chris :)

In the meantime, I updated the illustration that was pending, and added 
AGPL license to Scheme code, and CC-BY-SA 4.0 License to graphics to 
save you some edition.

I guess the next step is to add the source to a Git repo in Savannah, 
and do the rest there.

Let me know if you need anything else :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> On 2015-10-10 12:24, Thompson, David wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo
>> <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:

[...]

>>> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab
>>> a copy of
>>> the built site from here:
>>>
>>>   https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>>>
>>> To try it out:
>>>
>>>    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>>>    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent
>>> in Guile

This is perfect!

Andy, Mark: WDYT?  I suppose that the changes, if any, will be fine
tuning, so no worries.

>> Maybe Guile core could use a basic static file web server?

Yes, that would be nice.

>>> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.
>>
>> It looks great!  Thanks for sharing!  Now, who can help you make the
>> final edits and get it live?
>
> Thanks, David, and thanks Amirouche and Chris :)
>
> In the meantime, I updated the illustration that was pending, and
> added AGPL license to Scheme code, and CC-BY-SA 4.0 License to
> graphics to save you some edition.
>
> I guess the next step is to add the source to a Git repo in Savannah,
> and do the rest there.

I’ve requested the creation of a new Git repo:

  https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?108907

> Let me know if you need anything else :)

If you do not want to do the conversion to SXML (or Haunt?), I think
Mathieu Lirzin had offered to help.  Anyway, let us know if *you* need
anything else.  ;-)

Thank you!

Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-11 15:11, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> On 2015-10-10 12:24, Thompson, David wrote:
>>> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 6:24 PM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo
>>> <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>>> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab
>>>> a copy of
>>>> the built site from here:
>>>> 
>>>>   
>>>> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>>>> 
>>>> To try it out:
>>>> 
>>>>    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>>>>    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent
>>>> in Guile
> 
> This is perfect!
> 
> Andy, Mark: WDYT?  I suppose that the changes, if any, will be fine
> tuning, so no worries.
> 
>>> Maybe Guile core could use a basic static file web server?
> 
> Yes, that would be nice.
> 
>>>> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.
>>> 
>>> It looks great!  Thanks for sharing!  Now, who can help you make the
>>> final edits and get it live?
>> 
>> Thanks, David, and thanks Amirouche and Chris :)
>> 
>> In the meantime, I updated the illustration that was pending, and
>> added AGPL license to Scheme code, and CC-BY-SA 4.0 License to
>> graphics to save you some edition.
>> 
>> I guess the next step is to add the source to a Git repo in Savannah,
>> and do the rest there.
> 
> I’ve requested the creation of a new Git repo:
> 
>   https://savannah.gnu.org/support/?108907
> 
>> Let me know if you need anything else :)
> 
> If you do not want to do the conversion to SXML (or Haunt?), I think
> Mathieu Lirzin had offered to help.  Anyway, let us know if *you* need
> anything else.  ;-)
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Ludo’.

No need for conversion, Ludovic, the source is pure Guile Scheme (I did 
my homework):

https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/guile-website

I just used Python simple server for testing the built HTML :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> No need for conversion, Ludovic, the source is pure Guile Scheme (I
> did my homework):

Oh I had overlooked that.  Well this is really perfect then.  :-)

I have added you to the Guile group on Savannah, so feel free to push
your code to the new guile/guile-website.git repo (please restrict
yourself to this repo.)  It’s better to use GNU-style ChangeLog for
commit logs (same as for Guix), but it’s OK if you want to skip that.

We’ll wait for an OK from Andy and Mark before putting the site on-line.

Thank you!

Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-12 08:23, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> No need for conversion, Ludovic, the source is pure Guile Scheme (I
>> did my homework):
> 
> Oh I had overlooked that.  Well this is really perfect then.  :-)
> 
> I have added you to the Guile group on Savannah, so feel free to push
> your code to the new guile/guile-website.git repo (please restrict
> yourself to this repo.)  It’s better to use GNU-style ChangeLog for
> commit logs (same as for Guix), but it’s OK if you want to skip that.


I just pushed without GNU-style, but I will do so in the future once I 
read about it.


> We’ll wait for an OK from Andy and Mark before putting the site 
> on-line.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> Ludo’.


Ok :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 212 bytes --]

One last thing I noticed: The download section gives instructions for
Debian and Fedora, which is useful.  However, neither of these complies
with the GNU FSDG.

Thus I would suggest a change along these lines:


[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/x-patch, Size: 1523 bytes --]

diff --git a/website/apps/base/download-page.scm b/website/apps/base/download-page.scm
index ff4f1c9..db08463 100644
--- a/website/apps/base/download-page.scm
+++ b/website/apps/base/download-page.scm
@@ -68,22 +68,19 @@
 	(pre
 	 (@ (class "shell"))
 	 "guix package --install guile")
-	(h3 (@ (id "debian")) "Debian")
-	(P "If you use " (a (@ (href "http://www.debian.org/")) "Debian")
-	   " or any of its "
-	   (a (@ (href "https://wiki.debian.org/Derivatives/Census"))
-	      "derivatives") ", run the following command:")
+	(h3 (@ (id "debian")) "Trisquel, gNewSense, Debian, etc.")
+	(P "If you use " (a (@ (href "http://trisquel.info/")) "Trisquel")
+           ", " (a (@ (href "http://gnewsense.org")) "gNewSense")", "
+	   " or other Debian derivatives,, run the following command:")
 	(pre
 	 (@ (class "shell"))
 	 "apt-get install guile-2.0")
-	(h3 (@ (id "fedora")) "Fedora")
-	(P "If you use " (a (@ (href "https://getfedora.org/")) "Fedora")
-	   " or any of its "
-	   (a (@ (href "https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Derived_distributions"))
-	      "derivatives") ", run the following command:")
+	(h3 (@ (id "parabola")) "Parabola")
+	(P "If you use " (a (@ (href "http://www.parabola.nu/")) "Parabola")
+           ", run the following command:")
 	(pre
 	 (@ (class "shell"))
-	 "yum install guile")
+	 "pacman FIXME guile")
 	(h2 (@ (id "releases")) "Releases")
 	(P "The latest releases of Guile are available via anonymous FTP. "
 	   "The " (a (@ (href "http://www.gnu.org/software/software.html"))

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 115 bytes --]


How does that sound?  (Anyone familiar with Parabola/Arch should fill in
the FIXME.  ;-))

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-18 12:58, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> One last thing I noticed: The download section gives instructions for
> Debian and Fedora, which is useful.  However, neither of these complies
> with the GNU FSDG.
> 
> Thus I would suggest a change along these lines:
> 
> 
> 
> How does that sound?  (Anyone familiar with Parabola/Arch should fill 
> in
> the FIXME.  ;-))
> 
> Thanks,
> Ludo’.

Sounds good to me :)

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> On 2015-10-18 12:58, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
>> One last thing I noticed: The download section gives instructions for
>> Debian and Fedora, which is useful.  However, neither of these complies
>> with the GNU FSDG.
>>
>> Thus I would suggest a change along these lines:
>>
>>
>>
>> How does that sound?  (Anyone familiar with Parabola/Arch should
>> fill in
>> the FIXME.  ;-))
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Ludo’.
>
> Sounds good to me :)

I’ve pushed this change.

It seems the web site implementation lacks an simple way to export it to
HTML.  Could you maybe borrow from what the (www) module of Guix’s web
site does?

Eventually we’ll also have to copy the RSS-reading stuff from there, for
the 3 news entries that show up on the home page.

Thanks,
Ludo’.xs

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-20 07:50, ludo@gnu.org wrote:

> It seems the web site implementation lacks an simple way to export it 
> to
> HTML.  Could you maybe borrow from what the (www) module of Guix’s web
> site does?

Sure.

> Eventually we’ll also have to copy the RSS-reading stuff from there, 
> for
> the 3 news entries that show up on the home page.

Yes. Maybe I can do this on the weekend.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> On 2015-10-20 07:50, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
>
>> It seems the web site implementation lacks an simple way to export
>> it to
>> HTML.  Could you maybe borrow from what the (www) module of Guix’s web
>> site does?
>
> Sure.

Cool!  After that I think we can make it live (Mark informally approved
it in a private discussion; I haven’t heard from Andy, but I doubt he
would oppose, so I take responsibility for this.  We can always tweak
things afterwards.)  Although it would be even better to synchronize it
with 2.0.12…

Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-20 10:05, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> On 2015-10-20 07:50, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
>> 
>>> It seems the web site implementation lacks an simple way to export
>>> it to
>>> HTML.  Could you maybe borrow from what the (www) module of Guix’s 
>>> web
>>> site does?
>> 
>> Sure.
> 
> Cool!  After that I think we can make it live (Mark informally approved
> it in a private discussion; I haven’t heard from Andy, but I doubt he
> would oppose, so I take responsibility for this.  We can always tweak
> things afterwards.)  Although it would be even better to synchronize it
> with 2.0.12…
> 
> Ludo’.

Done. I pushed the exporter module and fixed some image paths.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

> On 2015-10-20 10:05, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
>> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:

[...]

>> Cool!  After that I think we can make it live (Mark informally approved
>> it in a private discussion; I haven’t heard from Andy, but I doubt he
>> would oppose, so I take responsibility for this.  We can always tweak
>> things afterwards.)  Although it would be even better to synchronize it
>> with 2.0.12…
>>
>> Ludo’.
>
> Done. I pushed the exporter module and fixed some image paths.

Excellent.  I just checked and it works for me.

Could we host a copy of the font that we need instead of querying
googleapis.com?

Also, what should we do about the “First Steps” tutorial that doesn’t
exist?  :-)

The strategy will be to synchronize the web site publication with
another announcement in the next few days (2.1 pre-release, 2.0.12,
FOSDEM devroom, who knows…)

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-26 18:24, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> On 2015-10-20 10:05, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
>>> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
> [...]
> 
>>> Cool!  After that I think we can make it live (Mark informally 
>>> approved
>>> it in a private discussion; I haven’t heard from Andy, but I doubt he
>>> would oppose, so I take responsibility for this.  We can always tweak
>>> things afterwards.)  Although it would be even better to synchronize 
>>> it
>>> with 2.0.12…
>>> 
>>> Ludo’.
>> 
>> Done. I pushed the exporter module and fixed some image paths.
> 
> Excellent.  I just checked and it works for me.
> 
> Could we host a copy of the font that we need instead of querying
> googleapis.com?


Yes. Done :)


> Also, what should we do about the “First Steps” tutorial that doesn’t
> exist?  :-)


I commented that part out for now.


> The strategy will be to synchronize the web site publication with
> another announcement in the next few days (2.1 pre-release, 2.0.12,
> FOSDEM devroom, who knows…)


Great!


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-20 07:50, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> skribis:
> 
>> On 2015-10-18 12:58, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
>>> One last thing I noticed: The download section gives instructions for
>>> Debian and Fedora, which is useful.  However, neither of these 
>>> complies
>>> with the GNU FSDG.
>>> 
>>> Thus I would suggest a change along these lines:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> How does that sound?  (Anyone familiar with Parabola/Arch should
>>> fill in
>>> the FIXME.  ;-))
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> Ludo’.
>> 
>> Sounds good to me :)
> 
> I’ve pushed this change.
> 
> It seems the web site implementation lacks an simple way to export it 
> to
> HTML.  Could you maybe borrow from what the (www) module of Guix’s web
> site does?
> 
> Eventually we’ll also have to copy the RSS-reading stuff from there, 
> for
> the 3 news entries that show up on the home page.

I just added the RSS part as well.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

New web site is live!

[Ludovic Courtès]

Hey Luis,

Not sure if you’ve seen it, but it’s live!

  http://www.gnu.org/software/guile/

And people seem to like it.  :-)

Andy installed the new site as he was telling the world about the
awesome 2.1.1!

Thanks again for the super cool web site!

Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Aleix Conchillo Flaqué]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1133 bytes --]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo <
felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a copy
> of the built site from here:
>
>
> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>
> To try it out:
>
>    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent in
> Guile
>
> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.
>
>
​This looks beautiful!

I have a suggestion: would it be possible to show only one code sample in
the Code examples section? The code sample would periodically switch to a
new one smoothly and also the user should be able to jump from sample to
sample by clicking some arrows. Something like racket-lang (but much nicer
with your design!). Also, it would save some space. The code could be on
the left and the explanation on the right side with the title on top of the
explanation.

I have no idea how to do this or how hard it is. So, please disregard if it
doesn't make sense.

Congrats!

Aleix

[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2950 bytes --]

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ludovic Courtès]

Aleix Conchillo Flaqué <aconchillo@gmail.com> skribis:

> I have a suggestion: would it be possible to show only one code sample in
> the Code examples section? The code sample would periodically switch to a
> new one smoothly and also the user should be able to jump from sample to
> sample by clicking some arrows. Something like racket-lang (but much nicer
> with your design!). Also, it would save some space. The code could be on
> the left and the explanation on the right side with the title on top of the
> explanation.

I agree that it would be nice, if possible.

OTOH the current web site has the advantage of being JavaScript-free.

WDYT, Felipe?

Ludo’.

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[tomas]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 03:26:21PM +0200, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> Aleix Conchillo Flaqué <aconchillo@gmail.com> skribis:
> 
> > I have a suggestion: would it be possible to show only one code sample in
> > the Code examples section? [...]

> I agree that it would be nice, if possible.
> 
> OTOH the current web site has the advantage of being JavaScript-free.

FWIW I do appreciate this trait highly.

thanks
- -- tomás
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Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-12 08:26, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> Aleix Conchillo Flaqué <aconchillo@gmail.com> skribis:
> 
>> I have a suggestion: would it be possible to show only one code sample 
>> in
>> the Code examples section? The code sample would periodically switch 
>> to a
>> new one smoothly and also the user should be able to jump from sample 
>> to
>> sample by clicking some arrows. Something like racket-lang (but much 
>> nicer
>> with your design!). Also, it would save some space. The code could be 
>> on
>> the left and the explanation on the right side with the title on top 
>> of the
>> explanation.
> 
> I agree that it would be nice, if possible.
> 
> OTOH the current web site has the advantage of being JavaScript-free.
> 
> WDYT, Felipe?
> 

I'm fine with Aleix suggestion. And it can be done so that the examples 
are shown in a descent way without the effects for people who don't use 
JavaScript. But I'd pass on the implementation because I don't like much 
using JavaScript :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[tomas]

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Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 01:15:59PM -0500, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:

[...]

> I'm fine with Aleix suggestion. And it can be done so that the
> examples are shown in a descent way without the effects for people
> who don't use JavaScript.

Wohoo!

Luis Felipe, you are my hero :-)

regards
- -- tomás
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Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Amirouche Boubekki]

Le 2015-10-12 20:15, Luis Felipe López Acevedo a écrit :
> On 2015-10-12 08:26, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
>> Aleix Conchillo Flaqué <aconchillo@gmail.com> skribis:
>> 
>>> I have a suggestion: would it be possible to show only one code 
>>> sample in
>>> the Code examples section? The code sample would periodically switch 
>>> to a
>>> new one smoothly and also the user should be able to jump from sample 
>>> to
>>> sample by clicking some arrows. Something like racket-lang (but much 
>>> nicer
>>> with your design!). Also, it would save some space. The code could be 
>>> on
>>> the left and the explanation on the right side with the title on top 
>>> of the
>>> explanation.
>> 
>> I agree that it would be nice, if possible.
>> 
>> OTOH the current web site has the advantage of being JavaScript-free.
>> 
>> WDYT, Felipe?
>> 
> 
> I'm fine with Aleix suggestion. And it can be done so that the
> examples are shown in a descent way without the effects for people who
> don't use JavaScript. But I'd pass on the implementation because I
> don't like much using JavaScript :)

I can do it, if nobody shims in... When I am finished with the tutorial.

Any comment is welcome.

First I tried to follow hylang tutorial [0], but I found it too short. I 
really like clojure koans [1], but there is not guilescript. I did not 
do much research, in particular there might be interesting stuff to use 
in "how to design programs" [2].

So I settled on 4 parts tutorial split into sections, but not deeper, 
where the first paragraph introduce a concept and the second paragraph 
apply the concept in the general context of guilers doing a hackfest. I 
did not talk about macros, I will think about a way to spread the 
different macros in all the parts.

Here is the plan:

# Learn Scheme Guile

## Getting started [3]

The main illustration is a breakfast box.

- call procedure
- define a variable
- how to create list
- how to create pairs
- how to create scheme dictionary aka. assoc
- how to define a procedure
- how to to create new list with initial list and a procedure using map

## Foward [4]

This continue with breakfast box and explain records with a mini todo 
list app.

- how to define a more complex procedure
- how to define variable inside procedures
- a short hand to make recursive procedures ie. named `let`
- how to define mutable datastructures ie. records

## Beyond [not written yet]

I don't know yet which example to use.

- goops
- values/receive
- apply
- compose

## Reference

A summary of all the syntax and procedure of the tutorial. This should 
be similar to hylang tutorial.


[0] 
http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/tutorial.html#basic-intro-to-lisp-for-pythonistas
[1] http://clojurescriptkoans.com/#equality/2
[2] http://www.htdp.org/
[3] http://hypermove.net/learn-scheme-guile-basics.html
[4] http://hypermove.net/learn-scheme-guile-forward.html

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Nala Ginrut]

On Fri, 2015-10-09 at 17:24 -0500, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
> On 2015-09-23 11:18, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
> > 
> > With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
> > mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.
> > 
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a 
> copy of the built site from here:
> 
>    
> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
> 
> To try it out:
> 
>     $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>     $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent in 
> Guile
> 
> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.


You may try Artanis for this:
=========================================================
guile -c "(use-modules (artanis artanis))(init-server)(run)"
=========================================================

http://www.gnu.org/software/artanis/manual/manual.html#sec-4-2

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-12 03:15, Nala Ginrut wrote:
> On Fri, 2015-10-09 at 17:24 -0500, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
>> On 2015-09-23 11:18, Luis Felipe López Acevedo wrote:
>> >
>> > With the feedback so far, I'm planning to make a revision of the
>> > mockup this weekend to include the suggested changes.
>> >
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a
>> copy of the built site from here:
>> 
>> 
>> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>> 
>> To try it out:
>> 
>>     $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>>     $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent 
>> in
>> Guile
>> 
>> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.
> 
> 
> You may try Artanis for this:
> =========================================================
> guile -c "(use-modules (artanis artanis))(init-server)(run)"
> =========================================================
> 
> http://www.gnu.org/software/artanis/manual/manual.html#sec-4-2

Nice! Thanks for the tip, Nala :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Aleix Conchillo Flaqué]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 727 bytes --]

On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo <
felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab a copy
> of the built site from here:
>
>
> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>
> To try it out:
>
>    $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>    $ python3 -m http.server            # couldn't find a equivalent in
> Guile
>
> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/>.
>
>
​At the bottom, Contributors doesn't show up on the same row as all the
other sections. See attached image. I'm not sure if this was intended or
not, i guess not as there's room to fit it.

​Aleix​

[-- Attachment #1.2: Type: text/html, Size: 1705 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #2: guile-website.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 135148 bytes --]

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-10-12 12:03, Aleix Conchillo Flaqué wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 9, 2015 at 3:24 PM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo
> <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:
> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I just finished an implementation of the new website. You can grab
>> a copy of the built site from here:
>> 
>> 
>> 
> https://bitbucket.org/sirgazil/dnd/downloads/guile-website-20151009.tar.gz
>> [1]
>> 
>> To try it out:
>> 
>> $ cd path/to/guile-website-yyyymmdd
>> $ python3 -m http.server # couldn't find a equivalent
>> in Guile
>> 
>> Then visit the website at <http://localhost:8000/ [2]>.
> 
> ​At the bottom, Contributors doesn't show up on the same row as all
> the other sections. See attached image. I'm not sure if this was
> intended or not, i guess not as there's room to fit it.
> 
> ​Aleix​

That behavior is intended. The links sections are wrapped as words in a 
paragraph as the screen width narrows. But I see there's room, as you 
say, so I'll make them not to break that soon.

Thanks, Aleix.

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Hi Luis,

> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these visual 
> modifications for the logo and the website.

this is very beautiful!  The drawings are very pretty and friendly.

I would suggest not to show too much code (like a full screenshot of an
Emacs session), but maybe just a little bit in friendly colours, about
as short as the example code on http://ruby-lang.org.

[[The “G” in the logo is very round (presumably to better fit the round
parentheses), as is the “e”.  I find that the maximum gap between the
“G” and the “u” is a little wide because of that, but that’s just
nitpicking.]]

I wished more project logos and websites received such a pretty and
effective overhaul as this!

Thank you!

~~ Ricardo

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-16 01:43, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> Hi Luis,
> 
>> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these 
>> visual
>> modifications for the logo and the website.
> 
> this is very beautiful!  The drawings are very pretty and friendly.
> 

Glad to hear you like it.

> I would suggest not to show too much code (like a full screenshot of an
> Emacs session), but maybe just a little bit in friendly colours, about
> as short as the example code on http://ruby-lang.org.
> 

Yes something like that would be fine, I think.

> [[The “G” in the logo is very round (presumably to better fit the round
> parentheses), as is the “e”.  I find that the maximum gap between the
> “G” and the “u” is a little wide because of that, but that’s just
> nitpicking.]]
> 

Yeah, I tried with a narrower G before using the round one and didn't 
like the way the parenthesis wrapped around it. The shapes didn't match.

Some people on IRC didn't like the logo much. And someone said that the 
G looks like the new Google logo. But my logo is from June, so I think 
Google is copying me :)

> I wished more project logos and websites received such a pretty and
> effective overhaul as this!
> 

My intention is to keep helping GNU subprojects whenever I have some 
time, so I'm glad these humble changes are well received.

> Thank you!
> 
> ~~ Ricardo


Thank you for the feedback, Ricardo!

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Alex Sassmannshausen]

Beautiful!

Like Chris, I love the demographically agnostic, yet incredibly inviting
drawings.  I also love the overall crisp and modern feel to the whole
site including the proposed new logos.

Fantastic :-)

Alex


Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:

> Hello list,
>
> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these visual 
> modifications for the logo and the website.
>
> Logo
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
>
> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>
> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image of 
> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>
>
> Your comments are very welcomed,

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-16 03:19, Alex Sassmannshausen wrote:
> Beautiful!
> 
> Like Chris, I love the demographically agnostic, yet incredibly 
> inviting
> drawings.  I also love the overall crisp and modern feel to the whole
> site including the proposed new logos.
> 
> Fantastic :-)
> 
> Alex
> 

Great! Thank you for the feedback, Alex.

I also read on IRC that someone said the drawings were childish. I 
understand. But I hope that the "Applications using guile" section will 
erase any wrong impressions that some people may get after seeing the 
illustrations.


P. S.: Nala Ginrut, I put your two cents in my pocket, thanks :)


> 
> Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:
> 
>> Hello list,
>> 
>> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these 
>> visual
>> modifications for the logo and the website.
>> 
>> Logo
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
>> 
>> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>> 
>> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image 
>> of
>> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>> 
>> 
>> Your comments are very welcomed,

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Thompson, David]

On Thu, Sep 17, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Luis Felipe López Acevedo
<felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> wrote:
> On 2015-09-16 03:19, Alex Sassmannshausen wrote:
>>
>> Beautiful!
>>
>> Like Chris, I love the demographically agnostic, yet incredibly inviting
>> drawings.  I also love the overall crisp and modern feel to the whole
>> site including the proposed new logos.
>>
>> Fantastic :-)
>>
>> Alex
>>
>
> Great! Thank you for the feedback, Alex.
>
> I also read on IRC that someone said the drawings were childish. I
> understand. But I hope that the "Applications using guile" section will
> erase any wrong impressions that some people may get after seeing the
> illustrations.

I'd classify the drawings as "cute", which I think is just fine!  The
important thing is that the illustrations clearly demonstrate an idea,
and I think they do.  I think the little robot going into a bigger
robot is a good visualization of extension.

Really great stuff.  I'm not in love with the proposed logo, but
overall this is fantastic and I'm very excited for Guile to have such
a clean and informative home page.

Thanks!

- Dave

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Amirouche Boubekki]

Le 2015-09-17 16:59, Luis Felipe López Acevedo a écrit :
> On 2015-09-16 03:19, Alex Sassmannshausen wrote:
>> Beautiful!
>> 
>> Like Chris, I love the demographically agnostic, yet incredibly 
>> inviting
>> drawings.  I also love the overall crisp and modern feel to the whole
>> site including the proposed new logos.
>> 
>> Fantastic :-)

+1, I really like the design, I find it well done and welcoming except 
the
following...

> 
> I also read on IRC that someone said the drawings were childish.
> 

Some one corrected me. What I mean is that it doesn't look **serious** 
enough
in the sens that the drawings would fit way better a tutorial about 
Guile that targets
children. And I think, it's better to save those drawings that and come 
with other
illustrations/photos that are more explicit about each topic.

There should be a better place between "corporate/megacorp", "chilren 
friendly", "academics"
and "startup" designs. Maybe if the toons had a gnu/friendly 
monster/robot
face instead of human faces it will look less "primary school". Like I 
said
the drawing, I'm wondering whether it's for the correct audience.

Some comments on other webites:

- python.org, djangoproject.com, and rust-lang.org look to too 
impersonnal/dull

- ruby-lang is simple and impersonnal but I think the logo makes it work 
great

- kivy.org is really well made

- http://elm-lang.org/ nice, not too dull

Really the design is really well made, no problem with that, I just want 
to be sure
that we won't disappoint the main audience and attract a lot of newsbies 
which i think
we are not ready for.

If I can vote, I will +0.

I other comments, I think that:

- The header menu should use the same ordering as the guix header menu

- It should have bulllet points (!) something like 
https://www.rust-lang.org/
   This kind of standard a lot of people do that in their README

- It should have a code snippet

Last but not least, the website is focusing on explaining that Guile is 
an
**extension** language. I don't use it as such and neither do many 
other,
"it a general programming language with appealing embedding features".

Most people looking for language look for a language to program their 
car/house,
website, make REST apis, build games, script their system and some to 
extend their
software to provide multiple extension language  with the same API. This 
is a really
massive feature of Guile and a deserve a full block, but other aspects 
of the Guile must
appear in the page. I think it is bad rep to call it "script" language.

I think it's written nowhere that it's a scheme language following srfi 
and RNRS specifications.
Honestly it was an another argument for me to start using Guile, instead 
of Racket.

> 
> I understand. But I hope that the "Applications using guile" section
> will erase any wrong impressions that some people may get after seeing
> the illustrations.
> 

This design IMO target better young people, I am not sure that's the 
image
Guile wants to show at first glance.


Hope this helps,


Amirouche


> 
> P. S.: Nala Ginrut, I put your two cents in my pocket, thanks :)
> 
> 
>> 
>> Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:
>> 
>>> Hello list,
>>> 
>>> As part of the Guile project I imagine, I'd like to propose these 
>>> visual
>>> modifications for the logo and the website.
>>> 
>>> Logo
>>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/guile-logo-proposal-2015-06-16.png
>>> 
>>> Website mockup (some rough sketches here)
>>> https://multimedialib.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/website-mockup-2015-09-15.png
>>> 
>>> My intention with this proposal is, hopefully, to modernize the image 
>>> of
>>> the project a bit and make it more attractive to potential users.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Your comments are very welcomed,

-- 
Amirouche ~ amz3 ~ http://www.hyperdev.fr

Re: New logo and website design proposal

[Luis Felipe López Acevedo]

On 2015-09-18 04:47, Amirouche Boubekki wrote:
> Le 2015-09-17 16:59, Luis Felipe López Acevedo a écrit :
>> On 2015-09-16 03:19, Alex Sassmannshausen wrote:
>>> Beautiful!
>>> 
>>> Like Chris, I love the demographically agnostic, yet incredibly 
>>> inviting
>>> drawings.  I also love the overall crisp and modern feel to the whole
>>> site including the proposed new logos.
>>> 
>>> Fantastic :-)
> 
> +1, I really like the design, I find it well done and welcoming except 
> the
> following...
> 
>> 
>> I also read on IRC that someone said the drawings were childish.
>> 
> 
> Some one corrected me. What I mean is that it doesn't look **serious** 
> enough
> in the sens that the drawings would fit way better a tutorial about
> Guile that targets
> children. And I think, it's better to save those drawings that and
> come with other
> illustrations/photos that are more explicit about each topic.


No worries. That's the way I took it when you said "childish".


> There should be a better place between "corporate/megacorp", "chilren
> friendly", "academics"
> and "startup" designs. Maybe if the toons had a gnu/friendly 
> monster/robot
> face instead of human faces it will look less "primary school". Like I 
> said
> the drawing, I'm wondering whether it's for the correct audience.
> 
> Some comments on other webites:
> 
> - python.org, djangoproject.com, and rust-lang.org look to too 
> impersonnal/dull
> 
> - ruby-lang is simple and impersonnal but I think the logo makes it 
> work great
> 
> - kivy.org is really well made
> 
> - http://elm-lang.org/ nice, not too dull
> 
> Really the design is really well made, no problem with that, I just
> want to be sure
> that we won't disappoint the main audience and attract a lot of
> newsbies which i think
> we are not ready for.
> 
> If I can vote, I will +0.
> 

I get you point about the illustrations, but I disagree :)

My Idea was to put "newbies" first without leaving out the experts. 
Maybe with this change we can push ourselves a bit to make the project 
be ready for people getting started in programming (it is not far from 
that, I think).

I think that having the "Applications made with guile" visible at the 
start, and with good software examples, will encourage any kind of 
person to keep browsing.

However, I'm willing to propose another design if the majority of people 
agree with you.


> I other comments, I think that:
> 
> - The header menu should use the same ordering as the guix header menu

+0

> - It should have bulllet points (!) something like 
> https://www.rust-lang.org/
>   This kind of standard a lot of people do that in their README


+1 if someone provides the appropriate text for me to include it in the 
design.


> - It should have a code snippet

+1

> Last but not least, the website is focusing on explaining that Guile is 
> an
> **extension** language. I don't use it as such and neither do many 
> other,
> "it a general programming language with appealing embedding features".
> 
> Most people looking for language look for a language to program their 
> car/house,
> website, make REST apis, build games, script their system and some to
> extend their
> software to provide multiple extension language  with the same API.
> This is a really
> massive feature of Guile and a deserve a full block, but other aspects
> of the Guile must
> appear in the page. I think it is bad rep to call it "script" language.


Yeah, Chris suggested something about it:

http://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/guile-devel/2015-09/msg00017.html


> I think it's written nowhere that it's a scheme language following
> srfi and RNRS specifications.
> Honestly it was an another argument for me to start using Guile,
> instead of Racket.

That can be added, yes.

> 
>> 
>> I understand. But I hope that the "Applications using guile" section
>> will erase any wrong impressions that some people may get after seeing
>> the illustrations.
>> 
> 
> This design IMO target better young people, I am not sure that's the 
> image
> Guile wants to show at first glance.
> 
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> 
> Amirouche


Thanks for your feedback, Amirouche :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

The Guile community we could have (or: solving Worse is More Accessible)

[Christopher Allan Webber]

Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:

>> Really the design is really well made, no problem with that, I just
>> want to be sure that we won't disappoint the main audience and
>> attract a lot of newsbies which i think we are not ready for.
>> 
>> If I can vote, I will +0.
>
> I get you point about the illustrations, but I disagree :)
>
> My Idea was to put "newbies" first without leaving out the experts. 
> Maybe with this change we can push ourselves a bit to make the project 
> be ready for people getting started in programming (it is not far from 
> that, I think).

I think this is absolutely the right goal, and the right call.  I am
100% behind the visual design, partly for this very reason!  I like the
design, it is the right level of modern, crisp and professional design,
but with just the right touch of playfulness.  That playfulness is
critical, I think.  Consider the community we have, and the community we
would like to bring in?

From what I've gathered, the traditional and public view of lisp and
scheme is of some ancient wizards (perhaps not so far from the cover of
SICP) casting spells from towers or potentially labs, maybe AI
labs... I love wizards, and lisp's history has a lot to thank of fairly
wizardly characters, but while wizards evoke a sense of magic, it is a
kind of unapproachable magic.

The new design appeals to me: it retains a kind of magic, but it is the
kind of magic of childhood, and when Guile is at its best, this is
true.  Guile is a magical, wonderful playground, and one whose limits is
your imagination and your patience.  Perhaps you will indeed become a
powerful wizard, but maybe you will become a magician of some other
type.  But no matter what, magic is under your fingertips from the very
beginning.  Come play along!

If you'll permit me to ramble a bit, I think Guile's community is at an
opportune time.  It's not visible to the outside world so much yet, but
Guile's community is a deeply welcoming one... something that was
surprising to me when I entered.  I've heard from plenty of others in
the community that one of the reasons this or that person stayed is
because of the level of patience and care given to questions, and this
is a great sign.

We aren't a diverse community... look at the gender distribution on
these mailing lists, and that's telling enough.  But Guile has the right
environment to become a better.  Guile's three maintainers, Ludo, Andy
and Mark, have all expressed interest in becoming an even more welcoming
and diverse place.  But that requires hard work.  There are lots of
steps to be made, but how we present ourselves is foundational.

To put it another way, many here have probably read the "Worse is
Better" essays.  That paradox of "better" I think sticks in the craw of
many lispers; something both seems wrong and yet frustratingly right
about it.  Maybe another way to look at it: "Worse is more accessible",
or "worse has the path of least resistance", or also importantly, "worse
is where I felt welcomed."  Given that, no wonder many people feel safe
and better rather than what lispers believe is "the right thing".

But maybe we could have both.  I believe it requires effort, and perhaps
a rebranding of imagery.  The wizard towers are still there if you want
them... I doubt any lisper or schemer will give up on Guile or Scheme
because of some fun and inviting drawings.  The fun drawings don't take
anything away!  But they add something: they make Guile feel like
somplace, even as a newcomer, you might belong.

There's plenty more to do (and to be said) to make that true, but I
think this redesign is a great step in that direction.

 - Chris

PS: As for the "it's not professional enough", most companies follow
  where developers want to go these days anyway, and those who are so
  entrenched in professionalism are probably "enterprise software"
  shops.  Those companies are already so deeply entrenched in Java or
  .NET that I wouldn't worry about them at this point. :)

Re: The Guile community we could have (or: solving Worse is More Accessible)

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> writes:

> Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:
>
>>> Really the design is really well made, no problem with that, I just
>>> want to be sure that we won't disappoint the main audience and
>>> attract a lot of newsbies which i think we are not ready for.
>>> 
>>> If I can vote, I will +0.
>>
>> I get you point about the illustrations, but I disagree :)
>>
>> My Idea was to put "newbies" first without leaving out the experts. 
>> Maybe with this change we can push ourselves a bit to make the project 
>> be ready for people getting started in programming (it is not far from 
>> that, I think).
>
> I think this is absolutely the right goal, and the right call.  I am
> 100% behind the visual design, partly for this very reason!  I like the
> design, it is the right level of modern, crisp and professional design,
> but with just the right touch of playfulness.  That playfulness is
> critical, I think.  Consider the community we have, and the community we
> would like to bring in?
>
> From what I've gathered, the traditional and public view of lisp and
> scheme is of some ancient wizards (perhaps not so far from the cover of
> SICP) casting spells from towers or potentially labs, maybe AI
> labs... I love wizards, and lisp's history has a lot to thank of fairly
> wizardly characters, but while wizards evoke a sense of magic, it is a
> kind of unapproachable magic.
>
> The new design appeals to me: it retains a kind of magic, but it is the
> kind of magic of childhood, and when Guile is at its best, this is
> true.  Guile is a magical, wonderful playground, and one whose limits is
> your imagination and your patience.  Perhaps you will indeed become a
> powerful wizard, but maybe you will become a magician of some other
> type.  But no matter what, magic is under your fingertips from the very
> beginning.  Come play along!
>
> If you'll permit me to ramble a bit, I think Guile's community is at an
> opportune time.  It's not visible to the outside world so much yet, but
> Guile's community is a deeply welcoming one... something that was
> surprising to me when I entered.  I've heard from plenty of others in
> the community that one of the reasons this or that person stayed is
> because of the level of patience and care given to questions, and this
> is a great sign.
>
> We aren't a diverse community... look at the gender distribution on
> these mailing lists, and that's telling enough.  But Guile has the right
> environment to become a better.  Guile's three maintainers, Ludo, Andy
> and Mark, have all expressed interest in becoming an even more welcoming
> and diverse place.  But that requires hard work.  There are lots of
> steps to be made, but how we present ourselves is foundational.
>
> To put it another way, many here have probably read the "Worse is
> Better" essays.  That paradox of "better" I think sticks in the craw of
> many lispers; something both seems wrong and yet frustratingly right
> about it.  Maybe another way to look at it: "Worse is more accessible",
> or "worse has the path of least resistance", or also importantly, "worse
> is where I felt welcomed."  Given that, no wonder many people feel safe
> and better rather than what lispers believe is "the right thing".
>
> But maybe we could have both.  I believe it requires effort, and perhaps
> a rebranding of imagery.  The wizard towers are still there if you want
> them... I doubt any lisper or schemer will give up on Guile or Scheme
> because of some fun and inviting drawings.  The fun drawings don't take
> anything away!  But they add something: they make Guile feel like
> somplace, even as a newcomer, you might belong.
>
> There's plenty more to do (and to be said) to make that true, but I
> think this redesign is a great step in that direction.
>
>  - Chris
>
> PS: As for the "it's not professional enough", most companies follow
>   where developers want to go these days anyway, and those who are so
>   entrenched in professionalism are probably "enterprise software"
>   shops.  Those companies are already so deeply entrenched in Java or
>   .NET that I wouldn't worry about them at this point. :)

Thank you for these wonderful words. :-)  A big +1 from me as well, for
Luis' design and your words.

Taylan

Re: The Guile community we could have (or: solving Worse is More Accessible)

[Alex Sassmannshausen]

+1 for your thoughts too Chris!

Alex

Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer writes:

> Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> writes:
>
>> Luis Felipe López Acevedo writes:
>>
>>>> Really the design is really well made, no problem with that, I just
>>>> want to be sure that we won't disappoint the main audience and
>>>> attract a lot of newsbies which i think we are not ready for.
>>>> 
>>>> If I can vote, I will +0.
>>>
>>> I get you point about the illustrations, but I disagree :)
>>>
>>> My Idea was to put "newbies" first without leaving out the experts. 
>>> Maybe with this change we can push ourselves a bit to make the project 
>>> be ready for people getting started in programming (it is not far from 
>>> that, I think).
>>
>> I think this is absolutely the right goal, and the right call.  I am
>> 100% behind the visual design, partly for this very reason!  I like the
>> design, it is the right level of modern, crisp and professional design,
>> but with just the right touch of playfulness.  That playfulness is
>> critical, I think.  Consider the community we have, and the community we
>> would like to bring in?
>>
>> From what I've gathered, the traditional and public view of lisp and
>> scheme is of some ancient wizards (perhaps not so far from the cover of
>> SICP) casting spells from towers or potentially labs, maybe AI
>> labs... I love wizards, and lisp's history has a lot to thank of fairly
>> wizardly characters, but while wizards evoke a sense of magic, it is a
>> kind of unapproachable magic.
>>
>> The new design appeals to me: it retains a kind of magic, but it is the
>> kind of magic of childhood, and when Guile is at its best, this is
>> true.  Guile is a magical, wonderful playground, and one whose limits is
>> your imagination and your patience.  Perhaps you will indeed become a
>> powerful wizard, but maybe you will become a magician of some other
>> type.  But no matter what, magic is under your fingertips from the very
>> beginning.  Come play along!
>>
>> If you'll permit me to ramble a bit, I think Guile's community is at an
>> opportune time.  It's not visible to the outside world so much yet, but
>> Guile's community is a deeply welcoming one... something that was
>> surprising to me when I entered.  I've heard from plenty of others in
>> the community that one of the reasons this or that person stayed is
>> because of the level of patience and care given to questions, and this
>> is a great sign.
>>
>> We aren't a diverse community... look at the gender distribution on
>> these mailing lists, and that's telling enough.  But Guile has the right
>> environment to become a better.  Guile's three maintainers, Ludo, Andy
>> and Mark, have all expressed interest in becoming an even more welcoming
>> and diverse place.  But that requires hard work.  There are lots of
>> steps to be made, but how we present ourselves is foundational.
>>
>> To put it another way, many here have probably read the "Worse is
>> Better" essays.  That paradox of "better" I think sticks in the craw of
>> many lispers; something both seems wrong and yet frustratingly right
>> about it.  Maybe another way to look at it: "Worse is more accessible",
>> or "worse has the path of least resistance", or also importantly, "worse
>> is where I felt welcomed."  Given that, no wonder many people feel safe
>> and better rather than what lispers believe is "the right thing".
>>
>> But maybe we could have both.  I believe it requires effort, and perhaps
>> a rebranding of imagery.  The wizard towers are still there if you want
>> them... I doubt any lisper or schemer will give up on Guile or Scheme
>> because of some fun and inviting drawings.  The fun drawings don't take
>> anything away!  But they add something: they make Guile feel like
>> somplace, even as a newcomer, you might belong.
>>
>> There's plenty more to do (and to be said) to make that true, but I
>> think this redesign is a great step in that direction.
>>
>>  - Chris
>>
>> PS: As for the "it's not professional enough", most companies follow
>>   where developers want to go these days anyway, and those who are so
>>   entrenched in professionalism are probably "enterprise software"
>>   shops.  Those companies are already so deeply entrenched in Java or
>>   .NET that I wouldn't worry about them at this point. :)
>
> Thank you for these wonderful words. :-)  A big +1 from me as well, for
> Luis' design and your words.
>
> Taylan

Re: The Guile community we could have (or: solving Worse is More Accessible)

[Ludovic Courtès]

Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:

> To put it another way, many here have probably read the "Worse is
> Better" essays.  That paradox of "better" I think sticks in the craw of
> many lispers; something both seems wrong and yet frustratingly right
> about it.  Maybe another way to look at it: "Worse is more accessible",
> or "worse has the path of least resistance", or also importantly, "worse
> is where I felt welcomed."  Given that, no wonder many people feel safe
> and better rather than what lispers believe is "the right thing".
>
> But maybe we could have both.  I believe it requires effort, and perhaps
> a rebranding of imagery.  The wizard towers are still there if you want
> them... I doubt any lisper or schemer will give up on Guile or Scheme
> because of some fun and inviting drawings.  The fun drawings don't take
> anything away!  But they add something: they make Guile feel like
> somplace, even as a newcomer, you might belong.

I’ve had your message and thoughts in the back of my mind for some time
and yes, your characterization of wizardry and the message it conveys to
newcomers, suggesting both a place where “magical” things happen and an
intimidating community, makes a lot of sense to me.

The new web site seems like a way to improve that image, indeed!

Ludo’.

Re: The Guile community we could have (or: solving Worse is More Accessible)

[Christopher Allan Webber]

Ludovic Courtès writes:

> Christopher Allan Webber <cwebber@dustycloud.org> skribis:
>
>> To put it another way, many here have probably read the "Worse is
>> Better" essays.  That paradox of "better" I think sticks in the craw of
>> many lispers; something both seems wrong and yet frustratingly right
>> about it.  Maybe another way to look at it: "Worse is more accessible",
>> or "worse has the path of least resistance", or also importantly, "worse
>> is where I felt welcomed."  Given that, no wonder many people feel safe
>> and better rather than what lispers believe is "the right thing".
>>
>> But maybe we could have both.  I believe it requires effort, and perhaps
>> a rebranding of imagery.  The wizard towers are still there if you want
>> them... I doubt any lisper or schemer will give up on Guile or Scheme
>> because of some fun and inviting drawings.  The fun drawings don't take
>> anything away!  But they add something: they make Guile feel like
>> somplace, even as a newcomer, you might belong.
>
> I’ve had your message and thoughts in the back of my mind for some time
> and yes, your characterization of wizardry and the message it conveys to
> newcomers, suggesting both a place where “magical” things happen and an
> intimidating community, makes a lot of sense to me.
>
> The new web site seems like a way to improve that image, indeed!
>
> Ludo’.

\o/