From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich =?utf-8?Q?Bay=C4=B1rl=C4=B1?= =?utf-8?Q?=2FKammer?=) Newsgroups: gmane.lisp.guile.devel Subject: Re: The Guile community we could have (or: solving Worse is More Accessible) Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 10:04:04 +0200 Message-ID: <87h9mhvc7f.fsf@T420.taylan> References: <12940f8a9be1fde49c9e9700480893a3@openmailbox.org> <877fnqlqtm.fsf@gmail.com> <574f30d4f5b0aef083a39ea7ad89fced@openmailbox.org> <03c272c09730d4aadb8c8e687992ec2b@openmailbox.org> <87io6yrp6x.fsf@dustycloud.org> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1443254506 14074 80.91.229.3 (26 Sep 2015 08:01:46 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2015 08:01:46 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Amirouche Boubekki , guile-devel@gnu.org To: Christopher Allan Webber Original-X-From: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Sat Sep 26 10:01:45 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: guile-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1ZfkQQ-0008Az-6p for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2015 10:01:42 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:52337 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZfkQP-0003ZN-Qf for guile-devel@m.gmane.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2015 04:01:41 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59906) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZfkQL-0003Z7-Qa for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2015 04:01:39 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZfkQK-0002hY-Go for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2015 04:01:37 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wi0-x22a.google.com ([2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a]:36994) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1ZfkQK-0002hF-8W for guile-devel@gnu.org; Sat, 26 Sep 2015 04:01:36 -0400 Original-Received: by wicfx3 with SMTP id fx3so44396008wic.0 for ; Sat, 26 Sep 2015 01:01:35 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=from:to:cc:subject:references:date:in-reply-to:message-id :user-agent:mime-version:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=MLv1pDSiMWJl9Q+F0Ti8HoOOVopUFjTzRtegLj/lc1c=; b=UXNPSDzKo9UAcXQ9hRC6pNIsNi+0opWImdivRKeI91FaMa/rtv5V+4FVjWE8z+jRUg iw3lmXR94di5fQAqI3vs4SEL7vw88dRYbkfCCbnUFymFdGwz6YY3HoDk29P/NyjSQ6Vx cHeMSXbZgAQJQpKk3vSIZzt3jG0ZaBDAoeptW5R682prMcNC7BKUPLhcMAm/wnZUEXVg t4cevV9p8prGlLdaNUg+t/OwaNy2NJ62cuvZB0GbPocjNaUbO3krRzfVbGfDrJJUWq5I 1s4mzAGkjBGQUYV36+EbYEry4GRUREr3uDLlH72xtau1cy9rHkSKJnLy8MC+hxeF/sNH TpuA== X-Received: by 10.180.198.180 with SMTP id jd20mr8182029wic.70.1443254495200; Sat, 26 Sep 2015 01:01:35 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from T420.taylan ([2a02:908:c32:4740:221:ccff:fe66:68f0]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id p20sm7108307wie.5.2015.09.26.01.01.33 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 26 Sep 2015 01:01:34 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <87io6yrp6x.fsf@dustycloud.org> (Christopher Allan Webber's message of "Fri, 25 Sep 2015 18:28:25 -0500") User-Agent: Gnus/5.13 (Gnus v5.13) Emacs/24.5 (gnu/linux) X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: Error: Malformed IPv6 address (bad octet value). X-Received-From: 2a00:1450:400c:c05::22a X-BeenThere: guile-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.14 Precedence: list List-Id: "Developers list for Guile, the GNU extensibility library" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: guile-devel-bounces+guile-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.lisp.guile.devel:17860 Archived-At: Christopher Allan Webber writes: > Luis Felipe L=C3=B3pez Acevedo writes: > >>> Really the design is really well made, no problem with that, I just >>> want to be sure that we won't disappoint the main audience and >>> attract a lot of newsbies which i think we are not ready for. >>>=20 >>> If I can vote, I will +0. >> >> I get you point about the illustrations, but I disagree :) >> >> My Idea was to put "newbies" first without leaving out the experts.=20 >> Maybe with this change we can push ourselves a bit to make the project=20 >> be ready for people getting started in programming (it is not far from=20 >> that, I think). > > I think this is absolutely the right goal, and the right call. I am > 100% behind the visual design, partly for this very reason! I like the > design, it is the right level of modern, crisp and professional design, > but with just the right touch of playfulness. That playfulness is > critical, I think. Consider the community we have, and the community we > would like to bring in? > > From what I've gathered, the traditional and public view of lisp and > scheme is of some ancient wizards (perhaps not so far from the cover of > SICP) casting spells from towers or potentially labs, maybe AI > labs... I love wizards, and lisp's history has a lot to thank of fairly > wizardly characters, but while wizards evoke a sense of magic, it is a > kind of unapproachable magic. > > The new design appeals to me: it retains a kind of magic, but it is the > kind of magic of childhood, and when Guile is at its best, this is > true. Guile is a magical, wonderful playground, and one whose limits is > your imagination and your patience. Perhaps you will indeed become a > powerful wizard, but maybe you will become a magician of some other > type. But no matter what, magic is under your fingertips from the very > beginning. Come play along! > > If you'll permit me to ramble a bit, I think Guile's community is at an > opportune time. It's not visible to the outside world so much yet, but > Guile's community is a deeply welcoming one... something that was > surprising to me when I entered. I've heard from plenty of others in > the community that one of the reasons this or that person stayed is > because of the level of patience and care given to questions, and this > is a great sign. > > We aren't a diverse community... look at the gender distribution on > these mailing lists, and that's telling enough. But Guile has the right > environment to become a better. Guile's three maintainers, Ludo, Andy > and Mark, have all expressed interest in becoming an even more welcoming > and diverse place. But that requires hard work. There are lots of > steps to be made, but how we present ourselves is foundational. > > To put it another way, many here have probably read the "Worse is > Better" essays. That paradox of "better" I think sticks in the craw of > many lispers; something both seems wrong and yet frustratingly right > about it. Maybe another way to look at it: "Worse is more accessible", > or "worse has the path of least resistance", or also importantly, "worse > is where I felt welcomed." Given that, no wonder many people feel safe > and better rather than what lispers believe is "the right thing". > > But maybe we could have both. I believe it requires effort, and perhaps > a rebranding of imagery. The wizard towers are still there if you want > them... I doubt any lisper or schemer will give up on Guile or Scheme > because of some fun and inviting drawings. The fun drawings don't take > anything away! But they add something: they make Guile feel like > somplace, even as a newcomer, you might belong. > > There's plenty more to do (and to be said) to make that true, but I > think this redesign is a great step in that direction. > > - Chris > > PS: As for the "it's not professional enough", most companies follow > where developers want to go these days anyway, and those who are so > entrenched in professionalism are probably "enterprise software" > shops. Those companies are already so deeply entrenched in Java or > .NET that I wouldn't worry about them at this point. :) Thank you for these wonderful words. :-) A big +1 from me as well, for Luis' design and your words. Taylan