bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries (was: bug#10215: 24.0.92; Can't contact nnimap (gnutls-cli not found))

bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries (was: bug#10215: 24.0.92; Can't contact nnimap (gnutls-cli not found))

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 01:04:25 +0100 Lars Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> wrote: 

LI> Uwe Siart <uwe.siart@tum.de> writes:
>> Thanks a lot for pointing me to that and sorry for my stupidness. I
>> wasn't aware that additional software is necessary because it hasn't
>> been necessary for Emacs 23.3 (precompiled for Windows). More even I
>> wasn't aware that GnuTLS is available for Windows.

LI> Hopefully Emacs 24 will be distributed (for Windows) with the GnuTLS
LI> libraries included, so that this will just work out of the box.
LI> Otherwise I think there will be many similar bug reports.  :-)

Christoph has been doing that, I think, so we can rely on his binaries.

Christoph, can you add a GnuTLS build step to your Emacs build for
Windows, so the latest GnuTLS version can be used on that platform?  We
had a long conversation about this and at least for now it seems to be
the best approach (and we agreed it would not be a task for the core
Emacs developers).  If you prefer, I can set up a BuildBot to produce
the GnuTLS DLLs for you.

Ted

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries (was: bug#10215: 24.0.92; Can't contact nnimap (gnutls-cli not found))

[Juanma Barranquero]

2012/1/26 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

> Christoph has been doing that, I think, so we can rely on his binaries.
>
> Christoph, can you add a GnuTLS build step to your Emacs build for
> Windows, so the latest GnuTLS version can be used on that platform?  We
> had a long conversation about this and at least for now it seems to be
> the best approach (and we agreed it would not be a task for the core
> Emacs developers).  If you prefer, I can set up a BuildBot to produce
> the GnuTLS DLLs for you.

Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not
include the GnuTLS DLLs.

Note (again) that the issue is not who builds the GnuTLS DLLs, but
whether they should be included with official (or semi-official, like
the snapshots) releases.

    Juanma

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 16:15:24 +0100 Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: 

JB> 2012/1/26 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:
>> Christoph has been doing that, I think, so we can rely on his binaries.
>> 
>> Christoph, can you add a GnuTLS build step to your Emacs build for
>> Windows, so the latest GnuTLS version can be used on that platform?  We
>> had a long conversation about this and at least for now it seems to be
>> the best approach (and we agreed it would not be a task for the core
>> Emacs developers).  If you prefer, I can set up a BuildBot to produce
>> the GnuTLS DLLs for you.

JB> Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not
JB> include the GnuTLS DLLs.

Right, and GnuTLS 3.0.9 is not the latest.  I meant he should be
building against the latest GnuTLS, not include it.

JB> Note (again) that the issue is not who builds the GnuTLS DLLs, but
JB> whether they should be included with official (or semi-official, like
JB> the snapshots) releases.

I was gonna bring that up next :)  What does "semi-official" mean?  Can
I work with Christoph to include the GnuTLS DLLs or not?  If not, can we
add a notice to his binaries announcements to tell users where to find
prebuilt GnuTLS DLLs?

Ted

Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:32:12 -0600
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> JB> Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not
> JB> include the GnuTLS DLLs.
> 
> Right, and GnuTLS 3.0.9 is not the latest.  I meant he should be
> building against the latest GnuTLS, not include it.

You are being unreasonable.  3.0.9 was released just a month ago.  A
new GnuTLS release happens every 2 weeks, how can you expect each one
of them be ported to Windows at that pace?  Do you think it's just the
"./configure && make" dance we are used to on GNU/Linux?  It took me a
full week of uphill battle to do that with 3.0.9, what with all the
prerequisite packages I needed to port first.  The previous port
before that was of v2.10, from a year and a half ago.  How come it
suddenly is so urgent to have the latest and the greatest?

In any case, feel free to join the battle and help out, instead of
coming up with such unreasonable requirements.

> I was gonna bring that up next :)  What does "semi-official" mean?  Can
> I work with Christoph to include the GnuTLS DLLs or not?  If not, can we
> add a notice to his binaries announcements to tell users where to find
> prebuilt GnuTLS DLLs?

You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of
GnuTLS 3.0.9 here:

  http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/

Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 21:36:11 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: 

>> From: Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>
>> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 13:32:12 -0600
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> 
JB> Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not
JB> include the GnuTLS DLLs.
>> 
>> Right, and GnuTLS 3.0.9 is not the latest.  I meant he should be
>> building against the latest GnuTLS, not include it.

EZ> You are being unreasonable.  3.0.9 was released just a month ago.  A
EZ> new GnuTLS release happens every 2 weeks, how can you expect each one
EZ> of them be ported to Windows at that pace?  Do you think it's just the
EZ> "./configure && make" dance we are used to on GNU/Linux?  It took me a
EZ> full week of uphill battle to do that with 3.0.9, what with all the
EZ> prerequisite packages I needed to port first.  The previous port
EZ> before that was of v2.10, from a year and a half ago.  How come it
EZ> suddenly is so urgent to have the latest and the greatest?

EZ> In any case, feel free to join the battle and help out, instead of
EZ> coming up with such unreasonable requirements.

My point was not that 3.1.2 is needed right now, but that Christoph
should be building against the latest GnuTLS in general.  Sorry if that
was not clear.

I did offer to set up a BuildBot to produce those DLLs, so I don't think
I was unreasonable.  If the BuildBot can compile them automatically, it
should be easy to use the latest.  If not... I'll work with you and the
GnuTLS developers to make it so.

>> I was gonna bring that up next :)  What does "semi-official" mean?  Can
>> I work with Christoph to include the GnuTLS DLLs or not?  If not, can we
>> add a notice to his binaries announcements to tell users where to find
>> prebuilt GnuTLS DLLs?

EZ> You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of
EZ> GnuTLS 3.0.9 here:

EZ>   http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/

That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've
done.  I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be
nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs, and even nicer if they
came with the binary.

Ted

Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>
> Date: Thu, 26 Jan 2012 15:07:05 -0600
> Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org
> 
> My point was not that 3.1.2 is needed right now, but that Christoph
> should be building against the latest GnuTLS in general.

The latest GnuTLS that's available to Christoph is 3.0.9.  You cannot
possibly expect him to build against the latest GnuTLS that was not
yet been built on Windows.  So I'm not sure what exactly do you mean.

> I did offer to set up a BuildBot to produce those DLLs

How can anyone trust a build done by a bot for a port to a platform
that is hardly if at all supported by the mainstream developers?  And
a build of critical software such as GnuTLS at that?  What if it fails
one of the tests in the test suite?

> EZ> You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of
> EZ> GnuTLS 3.0.9 here:
> 
> EZ>   http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/
> 
> That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've
> done.  I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be
> nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs, and even nicer if they
> came with the binary.

The URLs for optional DLLs are in the file README.W32 that is part of
the binary distribution.

Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:39:36 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: 

>> I did offer to set up a BuildBot to produce those DLLs

EZ> How can anyone trust a build done by a bot for a port to a platform
EZ> that is hardly if at all supported by the mainstream developers?  And
EZ> a build of critical software such as GnuTLS at that?  What if it fails
EZ> one of the tests in the test suite?

Someone has to do the work.  I offered to do it, setting up a BuildBot
so I don't have to do it manually every time.  I will obviously make it
run the tests and if it fails, it will not deliver the DLLs.  Do you
have a better proposal (e.g. you want to be in charge of the builds or
you know volunteers who want to do it)?  I'm certainly not looking for
more work for myself, but it seems no one else wants to automate this.

The fact that the GnuTLS developers don't support W32 well is partly due
to the lack of binary builds for that platform.  I think things will
improve as up-to-date DLLs become available.

EZ> You (or anyone else) can find the prebuilt Windows binaries of
EZ> GnuTLS 3.0.9 here:
>> 
EZ> http://sourceforge.net/projects/ezwinports/files/
>> 
>> That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've
>> done.  I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be
>> nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs, and even nicer if they
>> came with the binary.

EZ> The URLs for optional DLLs are in the file README.W32 that is part of
EZ> the binary distribution.

I'm asking *Christoph* if he could add that URL to the announcement for
the W32 binaries.  I think it would be a courtesy to the users.  I know
where to find the URL, but many users won't.

Ted

Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Juanma Barranquero]

2012/1/27 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

> Someone has to do the work. I offered to do it, setting up a BuildBot
> so I don't have to do it manually every time.  I will obviously make it
> run the tests and if it fails, it will not deliver the DLLs.  Do you
> have a better proposal (e.g. you want to be in charge of the builds or
> you know volunteers who want to do it)?  I'm certainly not looking for
> more work for myself, but it seems no one else wants to automate this.

"Someone has to do the work" and "be[ing] in charge of the builds"
sort of implies that there's that weird *obligation* to provide the
binaries. If there *is* in fact any obligation, it is certainly
unrelated to Emacs. You seem to think that those who oppose
distributing the binaries do so because of the burden of building
them. At least in my case, the opposition is philosophical/political,
and utterly unrelated with who wil bear the work of producing
binaries.

> The fact that the GnuTLS developers don't support W32 well is partly due
> to the lack of binary builds for that platform.  I think things will
> improve as up-to-date DLLs become available.

If you can set a bot to build the DLLs, the GnuTLS project surely
could, too. And it would be *their* binaries. You can't get more
official than that.

    Juanma

Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Fri, 27 Jan 2012 16:30:50 +0100 Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> wrote: 

JB> If you can set a bot to build the DLLs, the GnuTLS project surely
JB> could, too. And it would be *their* binaries. You can't get more
JB> official than that.

Yes, I made a mistake having this discussion on emacs-devel.  Sorry
about the noise.  I'll move it to the GnuTLS dev list.

Ted

Re: [h-e-w] bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>
> Date: Fri, 27 Jan 2012 09:59:53 -0600
> 
> On Thu, 26 Jan 2012 23:39:36 +0200 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> wrote: 
> 
> EZ> How can anyone trust a build done by a bot for a port to a platform
> EZ> that is hardly if at all supported by the mainstream developers?  And
> EZ> a build of critical software such as GnuTLS at that?  What if it fails
> EZ> one of the tests in the test suite?
> 
> Someone has to do the work.  I offered to do it, setting up a BuildBot
> so I don't have to do it manually every time.

The build itself is not where most of the efforts need to be invested.
It's the careful examination of any compiler and linker warnings and
test suite results that takes most of the time.  That, and the need to
refresh the packages that are prerequisites (at least 4 are required),
each one of which has its own share of quirks and problems.

> I will obviously make it run the tests and if it fails, it will not
> deliver the DLLs.

Then I think you will never deliver.  E.g., my perfectly good build
failed 3 times in the test suite, due to problems in the test suite
itself.  I would expect at least one test to fail with each new
release.

> Do you have a better proposal (e.g. you want to be in charge of the
> builds or you know volunteers who want to do it)?

I don't know what it means to be "in charge".  I did the port of
3.0.9, and I can refresh it from time to time, as my time permits.  I
cannot make any promises, and I certainly cannot produce a fresh port
every 2 weeks.  If some grave problem gets detected in the last port,
and someone reports that a new version fixes that, I could try doing a
quick port of that.  If that's good enough, this part is covered; if
not, someone else will have to do it.

> I'm certainly not looking for more work for myself, but it seems no
> one else wants to automate this.

As I said, automation is not the issue (how hard is it to type the 3
commands, including "make install-strip", needed to produce a new set
of binaries?).  But feel free to set it up, maybe I'm wrong and the
problem is not as complicated as I think it is.

> The fact that the GnuTLS developers don't support W32 well is partly due
> to the lack of binary builds for that platform.  I think things will
> improve as up-to-date DLLs become available.

Well, they are available now, but I see no change, at least not
judging by the traffic on the mailing list.

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Juanma Barranquero]

2012/1/26 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

> That's not what I asked, though I truly appreciate the work you've
> done.  I mean if I, the user, see that announcement, it would be
> nice if it told me where to find the GnuTLS DLLs

It's in README.W32, but the URL could also be mentioned in the release
announcements.

> and even nicer if they came with the binary.

I still think we should not do that.

    Juanma

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Uday S Reddy]

On 1/26/2012 3:15 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote:

>
> Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not
> include the GnuTLS DLLs.

I tried out the 24.0.94 prerlease by setting `smtpmail-stream-type' to 
'starttls.

It came back saying:

     smtpmail-send-it: Sending failed: Emacs does not support TLS, and 
no external `gnutls-cli.exe' program was found

Running locate-file, I see

    (locate-file "gnutls-cli.exe" exec-path)
    "c:/Cygwin/bin/gnutls-cli.exe"

Is this a regression?  It runs fine in Emacs 23.3.

Cheers,
Uday

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Uday S Reddy <usr.vm.rocks@gmail.com>
> Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 15:41:21 +0000
> Cc: help-emacs-windows@gnu.org
> 
> On 1/26/2012 3:15 PM, Juanma Barranquero wrote:
> 
> >
> > Christoph's binaries are built against gnutls-3.0.9, but they do not
> > include the GnuTLS DLLs.
> 
> I tried out the 24.0.94 prerlease by setting `smtpmail-stream-type' to 
> 'starttls.
> 
> It came back saying:
> 
>      smtpmail-send-it: Sending failed: Emacs does not support TLS, and 
> no external `gnutls-cli.exe' program was found
> 
> Running locate-file, I see
> 
>     (locate-file "gnutls-cli.exe" exec-path)
>     "c:/Cygwin/bin/gnutls-cli.exe"
> 
> Is this a regression?  It runs fine in Emacs 23.3.

As I wrote elsewhere, you don't have the GnuTLS binaries installed.
Please do, and then it should "just work".

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Uday S Reddy <usr.vm.rocks@gmail.com> writes:

>     smtpmail-send-it: Sending failed: Emacs does not support TLS, and
> no external `gnutls-cli.exe' program was found
>
> Running locate-file, I see
>
>    (locate-file "gnutls-cli.exe" exec-path)
>    "c:/Cygwin/bin/gnutls-cli.exe"

This error message is totally wrong now, because we redefined to be:

(defun starttls-available-p ()
  "Say whether the STARTTLS programs are available."
  (and (not (memq system-type '(windows-nt ms-dos)))
       (executable-find (if starttls-use-gnutls
			    starttls-gnutls-program
			  starttls-program))))

That is, if we're under Windows, we just give up, because gnutls-cli
doesn't work, because we don't have signals under Windows.

So I'll fix the error message to be less misleading.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> Note (again) that the issue is not who builds the GnuTLS DLLs, but
> whether they should be included with official (or semi-official, like
> the snapshots) releases.

Does the new semi-official build include the GnuTLS DLLs?  It seems to
include a lot of the other libraries, but it doesn't mention GnuTLS...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

RE: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Drew Adams]

Why is this being crossposted to 3 different Emacs mailing lists. Please keep it only for the bug list.

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
> Date: Mon, 08 Dec 2014 21:05:12 +0100
> Cc: 10612@debbugs.gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org, help-emacs-windows@gnu.org
> 
> Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > Note (again) that the issue is not who builds the GnuTLS DLLs, but
> > whether they should be included with official (or semi-official, like
> > the snapshots) releases.
> 
> Does the new semi-official build include the GnuTLS DLLs?  It seems to
> include a lot of the other libraries, but it doesn't mention GnuTLS...

It doesn't include any DLLs except libXpm (which is needed for the
tool-bar icons).  It was built with GnuTLS, though, so if the end user
installs GnuTLS, Emacs will find it and use it.

(We never distributed Windows DLLs with Emacs, because that would
require us to host their sources, their dependencies, and the sources
of their dependencies on ftp.gnu.org, which IIRC raises all kinds of
questions and issues with their licenses.)

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> It doesn't include any DLLs except libXpm (which is needed for the
> tool-bar icons).  It was built with GnuTLS, though, so if the end user
> installs GnuTLS, Emacs will find it and use it.

Yeah, but there are other less official builds (i.e., not official at
all), like those linked from here:

http://www.emacswiki.org/CategoryWThirtyTwo

I couldn't tell whether any of those included GnuTLS...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Óscar Fuentes]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> It doesn't include any DLLs except libXpm (which is needed for the
>> tool-bar icons).  It was built with GnuTLS, though, so if the end user
>> installs GnuTLS, Emacs will find it and use it.
>
> Yeah, but there are other less official builds (i.e., not official at
> all), like those linked from here:
>
> http://www.emacswiki.org/CategoryWThirtyTwo
>
> I couldn't tell whether any of those included GnuTLS...

The binaries distributed by the MSYS2 project comes with GnuTLS
libraries (and every other Emacs dependency supported on Windows.)

Why do you ask?

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Óscar Fuentes <ofv@wanadoo.es> writes:

> The binaries distributed by the MSYS2 project comes with GnuTLS
> libraries (and every other Emacs dependency supported on Windows.)
>
> Why do you ask?

I didn't, bug#10612 asked.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> It doesn't include any DLLs except libXpm (which is needed for the
>> tool-bar icons).  It was built with GnuTLS, though, so if the end user
>> installs GnuTLS, Emacs will find it and use it.
>
> Yeah, but there are other less official builds (i.e., not official at
> all), like those linked from here:
>
> http://www.emacswiki.org/CategoryWThirtyTwo
>
> I couldn't tell whether any of those included GnuTLS...

They do:

http://emacsbinw64.sourceforge.net/

    100% unmodified source code from git master and release version.
    Native 64-Bit binary for MS-Windows.
    Compiled with optimization.
    With JPEG, GIF, PNG, TIFF, SVG, XML2, and GnuTLS support.

So I'm closing this wishlist bug report.

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
   bloggy blog: http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Christoph Scholtes]

Ted,

On 1/26/2012 8:44 AM, Ted Zlatanov wrote:

> Christoph, can you add a GnuTLS build step to your Emacs build for
> Windows, so the latest GnuTLS version can be used on that platform?  We
> had a long conversation about this and at least for now it seems to be
> the best approach (and we agreed it would not be a task for the core
> Emacs developers).  If you prefer, I can set up a BuildBot to produce
> the GnuTLS DLLs for you.

 From what Eli said about his experience building GnuTLS on W32 this is 
something I'd rather not take on. My time is rather limited.

I am happy to build against whichever GnuTLS lib with binaries is 
available for W32 wherever. Whether that is on Eli's site or the 
official GnuTLS site.

I will also include a link to a location where to obtain the binaries in 
my release announcements from now on.

Regarding shipping Emacs with the GnuTLS binaries, I am generally not 
opposed to doing that. But what about jpeg, gif, tiff support? I agree 
with Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary 
distribution_. This whole model does not fit the expectations in the 
Windows world. In 2012, Windows users expect an "Emacs for Windows" with 
all (binary) batteries included, an installer/uninstaller, etc. We don't 
supply that and unless somebody steps up and does the work necessary we 
won't. Whether politically speaking we should is another question.

Right now I am building against Eli's library v3.0.9. If you provide a 
more recent, working, binary build for Windows and there is a somewhat 
convenient way for me to get it (I can script downloading and unzip'ing) 
I can include it in the binary distribution. That is, of course, if 
nobody has compelling arguments why I should not.

Do we have to provide the source for GnuTLS if we include it in the 
distro or is it enough for it to be available on the GnuTLS site?

Christoph

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 17:00, Christoph Scholtes
<cschol2112@googlemail.com> wrote:

> I agree with
> Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary distribution_.

Yes, and only because we're sort of forced to do it.

> I can include
> it in the binary distribution. That is, of course, if nobody has compelling
> arguments why I should not.

Apart from politics, the other reason against (whether other people
finds it compelling or not, I don't know), is that including the
binary means taking responsibility. For example, to release security
upgrades as soon as possible, at least for serious bugs. That also
means monitoring the GnuTLS lists (or security bulletins). Which is
currently done, I think, but what if the people doing it suddently
lacks time or just moves to other pursuits? It's easy to start
distributing the GnuTLS DLLs, harder to stop doing it.

    Juanma

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Christoph Scholtes]

On 1/29/2012 9:47 AM, Juanma Barranquero wrote:

>> I agree with
>> Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary distribution_.
>
> Yes, and only because we're sort of forced to do it.

Why is that?

> Apart from politics, the other reason against (whether other people
> finds it compelling or not, I don't know), is that including the
> binary means taking responsibility. For example, to release security
> upgrades as soon as possible, at least for serious bugs. That also
> means monitoring the GnuTLS lists (or security bulletins). Which is
> currently done, I think, but what if the people doing it suddently
> lacks time or just moves to other pursuits? It's easy to start
> distributing the GnuTLS DLLs, harder to stop doing it.

I agree, but doesn't that also start with compiling support for GnuTLS 
into the prebuilt Emacs? Don't we start taking responsibility at that 
point? If there is a security update for GnuTLS that requires the user 
to use the latest certain version, don't we have to provide support for 
the latest version in the binary? Assuming that you can't use the fixed 
binary with the previous versions headers, that is.

Christoph

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Juanma Barranquero]

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 18:08, Christoph Scholtes
<cschol2112@googlemail.com> wrote:

> Why is that?

Because the number of Windows machines with a compiler and a build
environment is almost zero, and though they are available (and free)
the average Windows users knows nothing about them and wouldn't know
how to (or be interested in) install and use them.

It's been said a few times here, by RMS and others, than providing
Emacs for Windows (binary or not) is intended to be a bridgehead to
introduce users of non-free software to the advantages of free
software (not to facilitate them using Windows). If we didn't offer
binaries for Windows, almost nobody would use it. It's politically
convenient to provide them.

> I agree, but doesn't that also start with compiling support for GnuTLS into
> the prebuilt Emacs?

No. That's just an enabler. Whether they use it or not is their
decision, and they should be aware of the risks and benefits before
doing it.

> If  there is a security update for GnuTLS that requires the user to use the
> latest certain version, don't we have to provide support for the latest
> version in the binary?

Yes, but bugs that force a change in the API are less frequent. Of
course as soon as we add some capability we expose the user to
security risks (23.4 wouldn't be needed without EDE). We have to put
the line at some point.

And, in any case, bearing the responsibility of the upgrades isn't my
main objection, and never has, just another inconvenience. The main
argument is still that GnuTLS, etc. have their own projects and
maintainers, and they should be the ones taking care of building and
distributing it.

    Juanma

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Chong Yidong]

Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:

> The main argument is still that GnuTLS, etc. have their own projects
> and maintainers, and they should be the ones taking care of building
> and distributing it.

Agreed.  I think it is sufficient to have a URL to the GnuTLS binaries
(and sources!).  If the worry is that Windows users won't see that URL,
we can put the notice somewhere on our webpage next to the download
link, and/or in a "read me first" file on the FTP site.

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Mon, 30 Jan 2012 09:00:00 +0800 Chong Yidong <cyd@gnu.org> wrote: 

CY> Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com> writes:
>> The main argument is still that GnuTLS, etc. have their own projects
>> and maintainers, and they should be the ones taking care of building
>> and distributing it.

CY> Agreed.  I think it is sufficient to have a URL to the GnuTLS binaries
CY> (and sources!).  If the worry is that Windows users won't see that URL,
CY> we can put the notice somewhere on our webpage next to the download
CY> link, and/or in a "read me first" file on the FTP site.

That would be wonderful.

Ted

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:00:30 -0700
> From: Christoph Scholtes <cschol2112@googlemail.com>
> CC: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, Juanma Barranquero <lekktu@gmail.com>
> 
> Do we have to provide the source for GnuTLS if we include it in the 
> distro

Yes, we do.  For GnuTLS and for all its dependency DLLs as well (4
other packages, you will find them in my binary distro).

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Ted Zlatanov]

On Sun, 29 Jan 2012 09:00:30 -0700 Christoph Scholtes <cschol2112@googlemail.com> wrote: 

CS> Regarding shipping Emacs with the GnuTLS binaries, I am generally not
CS> opposed to doing that. But what about jpeg, gif, tiff support? I agree
CS> with Juanma who IIRC said that we are providing an _Emacs binary
CS> distribution_. This whole model does not fit the expectations in the
CS> Windows world. In 2012, Windows users expect an "Emacs for Windows"
CS> with all (binary) batteries included, an installer/uninstaller,
CS> etc. We don't supply that and unless somebody steps up and does the
CS> work necessary we won't. Whether politically speaking we should is
CS> another question.

I will work on a W32 Emacs installer shell, wrapping your latest
binaries and the other libraries' binaries, with other volunteers
outside the emacs-devel scope, once I have GnuTLS builds automated.  At
that point it will probably automatically build the other libraries as
well.  Thanks for your feedback.

Ted

Re: bug#10612: GnuTLS bundled with the windows Emacs binaries

[Juanma Barranquero]

2012/1/30 Ted Zlatanov <tzz@lifelogs.com>:

> I will work on a W32 Emacs installer shell, wrapping your latest
> binaries and the other libraries' binaries, with other volunteers
> outside the emacs-devel scope

I would be glad to help.

> At
> that point it will probably automatically build the other libraries as
> well.

If that project also makes availables the other libraries' binaries to
download (not just as part of an installer), that would be swell.

    Juanma