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From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
To: Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA>
Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:14:14 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <552D20B6.8030005@yandex.ru> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <jwv4moj4dg6.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>

On 04/14/2015 06:07 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote:

> There was probably a reason originally.  Nowadays, I think the main
> reason it's t is because there's no sufficiently good reason to change
> it (the hypothetical benefit of change will be smaller than the pain of
> having to suffer through too many people bitching at the change).

Let's do a trial in master, to see how much bitching this results in? :)

Consider this: when initially diving into Emacs (coming from some 
experience with two IDEs), I was learning how to configure indentation 
in different modes. The necessary steps were:

1) Find the variable `indent-tabs-mode'. See it doesn't help with the 
amount of indentation per level, keep looking. Same with `tab-width'.

2) Find the language-dependent variables (js-indent-level, 
css-indent-offset and c-basic-offset). It doesn't help that each one is 
named in a different fashion.

3) Notice that while it almost works like intended, sometimes you get 
tabs inserted. Go back to `indent-tabs-mode', put `(setq 
indent-tabs-mode nil)` in the init file, see that it doesn't help.

4) Find out about buffer-local-ness and `setq-default'. That finally 
does it.

The above steps required certain persistence.

> I.e. this is kind of like endianness.

One could say that about any variable with existing default value, no?

I think it's different enough: the current users should know pretty 
easily how to change it, whereas it's usually a bigger issue for 
newcomers.  Better defaults would result in a better initial experience 
bringing the adoption up somewhat; on the flip side, I can't imagine 
anyone quitting Emacs over this default value.

And since this value is not just a user preference (it's 
project-dependent), even those who prefer tabs have probably had to use 
a different value at some point. So they know what to change.





  reply	other threads:[~2015-04-14 14:14 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 87+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-04-14  2:37 bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14  3:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-14 14:14   ` Dmitry Gutov [this message]
2015-04-14 15:25     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 15:39       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 15:59         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 20:24           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 21:43             ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-14 22:17               ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15  1:19                 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-15  2:08                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15  4:19                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-20 14:56                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-20 19:26                         ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-20 22:09                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-21  1:25                             ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 19:25                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-21 19:47                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-22 15:02                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 15:18                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-22 15:23                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 15:28                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-22 15:49                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-21 20:27                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-21 20:51                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 13:56                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-22 14:59                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-22 16:47                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-11-02 18:18                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-02 20:37                                       ` John Wiegley
2015-11-02 21:03                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-11-02 21:18                                           ` John Wiegley
2015-11-02 21:06                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-02 21:29                                           ` John Wiegley
2015-11-02 23:31                                             ` Richard Stallman
2015-11-03  3:32                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-11-02 23:31                                         ` Richard Stallman
2015-04-15 14:31                     ` Wolfgang Jenkner
2015-04-15 16:10             ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17  2:48               ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17  4:58                 ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-17 13:14                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17  7:26                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17  8:11                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 14:17                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17 14:36                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 15:55                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17 16:23                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 18:12                     ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-17 18:18                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-20 15:03                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-17  7:55                 ` Andreas Schwab
2015-04-17  8:12                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 10:55                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-26 14:27             ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-27  2:52               ` Richard Stallman
2015-12-27  3:21                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-27 15:50               ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-12-27 16:10                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-27 16:28                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-12-27 16:51                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-30  4:47               ` John Wiegley
2015-12-30 11:48                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-30 12:15                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-30 19:18                     ` John Wiegley
2015-12-31  0:24                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-31  1:17                         ` John Wiegley
2015-12-31  1:26                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-12-31  2:48                             ` John Wiegley
2015-12-31  6:30                       ` Richard Stallman
2015-04-14 17:15         ` Stefan Monnier
2015-04-14 18:08           ` Nicolas Petton
2015-04-14 20:33           ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 19:09     ` Achim Gratz
2015-04-14 21:58       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15  2:33   ` Richard Stallman
2015-04-15 11:18     ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-15 16:17       ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-15 23:03         ` Dmitry Gutov
     [not found]   ` <<E1YiD8o-000318-H5@fencepost.gnu.org>
2015-04-15 15:29     ` Drew Adams
2015-04-14 14:17 ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 14:40   ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 15:29     ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-14 15:48       ` Dmitry Gutov
2015-04-14 16:02         ` Eli Zaretskii
2015-04-17 17:22         ` Philipp Stephani
2015-04-18  2:55           ` Dmitry Gutov

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