From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Dmitry Gutov Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#20322: 25.0.50; indent-tabs-mode should default to nil Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 17:14:14 +0300 Message-ID: <552D20B6.8030005@yandex.ru> References: <861tjn3069.fsf@yandex.ru> NNTP-Posting-Host: plane.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1429020929 9550 80.91.229.3 (14 Apr 2015 14:15:29 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:15:29 +0000 (UTC) Cc: 20322@debbugs.gnu.org To: Stefan Monnier Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Tue Apr 14 16:15:16 2015 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by plane.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.69) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1cS-0006cD-D4 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 16:15:16 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:56110 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1cR-0006hO-Rj for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:15:15 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:59750) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1cL-0006h4-3P for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:15:13 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1cF-0003Vk-Ek for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:15:09 -0400 Original-Received: from debbugs.gnu.org ([140.186.70.43]:38278) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1cF-0003VI-Ab for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:15:03 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-debbugs by debbugs.gnu.org with local (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1cE-0001zf-EP for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:15:02 -0400 X-Loop: help-debbugs@gnu.org Resent-From: Dmitry Gutov Original-Sender: "Debbugs-submit" Resent-CC: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org Resent-Date: Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:15:02 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: help-debbugs@gnu.org X-GNU-PR-Message: followup 20322 X-GNU-PR-Package: emacs X-GNU-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 20322-submit@debbugs.gnu.org id=B20322.14290208757615 (code B ref 20322); Tue, 14 Apr 2015 14:15:02 +0000 Original-Received: (at 20322) by debbugs.gnu.org; 14 Apr 2015 14:14:35 +0000 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:56287 helo=debbugs.gnu.org) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1bi-0001yh-Fl for submit@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:14:35 -0400 Original-Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44]:33530) by debbugs.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.80) (envelope-from ) id 1Yi1bb-0001yP-LD for 20322@debbugs.gnu.org; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 10:14:28 -0400 Original-Received: by wgin8 with SMTP id n8so13567260wgi.0 for <20322@debbugs.gnu.org>; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 07:14:18 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=sender:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to:content-type:content-transfer-encoding; bh=DPIM/BAnvNKO5tTmwaqoBXdjULx8UgmiNV0lTJ6htcQ=; b=oyjxleQsUH2pKq5hofy1VEuIYJeUXqzS0E5d7NIELrWyQHrf50DcgfycKf4Cb0EcnM pETEqQ3tg0kDMJow8Xvydm1+EPQsx/84tSP8sfCx4FoIebuhnGZcmuO5aMuC8iuCe+NE CgDthfeQ15NLdahAgBDKwfulRWC/yDrUvd7cgvfapgV3gwElfNSw19A9lFzusMhawirB 2oMjIaI58R/SReir7lCLM4bvKvZn5iIObWvFypOoEBwIW7Tv+uoCxMG5Dvc8gvsihxep BxJzKtCnH4qLBQyFqWLllnoH2tx1iU9L10yoHoK0oc0ANTGnWbO81F99F78GwuXgfnB+ QGxw== X-Received: by 10.180.92.198 with SMTP id co6mr2298318wib.34.1429020857768; Tue, 14 Apr 2015 07:14:17 -0700 (PDT) Original-Received: from [192.168.1.2] ([82.102.93.54]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ch2sm2988258wib.18.2015.04.14.07.14.16 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 14 Apr 2015 07:14:17 -0700 (PDT) User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:36.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/36.0 In-Reply-To: X-BeenThere: debbugs-submit@debbugs.gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x X-Received-From: 140.186.70.43 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:101509 Archived-At: On 04/14/2015 06:07 AM, Stefan Monnier wrote: > There was probably a reason originally. Nowadays, I think the main > reason it's t is because there's no sufficiently good reason to change > it (the hypothetical benefit of change will be smaller than the pain of > having to suffer through too many people bitching at the change). Let's do a trial in master, to see how much bitching this results in? :) Consider this: when initially diving into Emacs (coming from some experience with two IDEs), I was learning how to configure indentation in different modes. The necessary steps were: 1) Find the variable `indent-tabs-mode'. See it doesn't help with the amount of indentation per level, keep looking. Same with `tab-width'. 2) Find the language-dependent variables (js-indent-level, css-indent-offset and c-basic-offset). It doesn't help that each one is named in a different fashion. 3) Notice that while it almost works like intended, sometimes you get tabs inserted. Go back to `indent-tabs-mode', put `(setq indent-tabs-mode nil)` in the init file, see that it doesn't help. 4) Find out about buffer-local-ness and `setq-default'. That finally does it. The above steps required certain persistence. > I.e. this is kind of like endianness. One could say that about any variable with existing default value, no? I think it's different enough: the current users should know pretty easily how to change it, whereas it's usually a bigger issue for newcomers. Better defaults would result in a better initial experience bringing the adoption up somewhat; on the flip side, I can't imagine anyone quitting Emacs over this default value. And since this value is not just a user preference (it's project-dependent), even those who prefer tabs have probably had to use a different value at some point. So they know what to change.