Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Payas Relekar]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> * Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com> [2022-08-25 15:57]:
>> [1] https://www.haiku-inc.org/trademarks/haiku_icons/
>> [2] https://github.com/darealshinji/haiku-icons
>
> Those are nice.

As a daily user of Haiku, these icons are indeed nice. As mentioned by
others, there are SVGs along with PNG version so they can be scaled for
high resolution, almost all of them have distinct shapes and bright
colors with high contrast, and in a world full of flat text buttons and
monochrome logos they are a joy to use.

They are also quite unique to look at. It'll be very nice to have them
in Emacs GUI by default.

Thanks,
Payas

--

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 08.09.2022 13:03, Payas Relekar wrote:
> They are also quite unique to look at. It'll be very nice to have them
> in Emacs GUI by default.

It might be weirdly fitting, to have Emacs GUI default to Haiku icons.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > It might be weirdly fitting, to have Emacs GUI default to Haiku icons.

Can you explain what would be "fitting" about this?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Payas Relekar]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> On 08.09.2022 13:03, Payas Relekar wrote:
>> They are also quite unique to look at. It'll be very nice to have them
>> in Emacs GUI by default.
>
> It might be weirdly fitting, to have Emacs GUI default to Haiku icons.

It'll also make Emacs look more *modern* without being gaudy/flat/useless.

Make Emacs look nice and increase Haiku's awareness in the process.

Sum of two free projects is better than their addition eh?

Thanks,
Payas

--

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

> Make Emacs look nice and increase Haiku's awareness in the process.

I don't think the latter is something we want to specifically do.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Payas Relekar]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> Make Emacs look nice and increase Haiku's awareness in the process.
>
> I don't think the latter is something we want to specifically do.

I know, it'll be positive externality without any extra effort by Emacs
is all.

Thanks,
Payas

--

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:

> It'll also make Emacs look more *modern* without being gaudy/flat/useless.

To me, it just looks like BeOS did when I tried it in 1998/1999.  It's
quite nostalgic, but not exactly "modern" by any stretch of the
imagination.

Here are some screenshots from that time:
http://gregory.cobena.free.fr/www/programs/BeOS_SiS/index.html

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> To me, it just looks like BeOS did when I tried it in 1998/1999.

Yes, but they're scalable, so they work well on high resolution display
panels.  The same cannot be said about BeOS icons.

And scalability is the whole point of this discussion, right?  Since we
want tool bars to scale?

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Payas Relekar]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> "decent contrast" is a fairly low bar.
>

Yet surprising amount of *modern* software fails to clear it..

I'm just glad modus-themes makes 'contrast' issues thing of the past in
Emacs. Now if icons acheive the same feat, I might just enable the
toolbar.

Thanks,
Payas

--

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 24.08.2022 19:08, Payas Relekar wrote:
> Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>  writes:
> 
>> "decent contrast" is a fairly low bar.
>>
> Yet surprising amount of*modern*  software fails to clear it..
> 
> I'm just glad modus-themes makes 'contrast' issues thing of the past in
> Emacs. Now if icons acheive the same feat, I might just enable the
> toolbar.

I'm very much in favor of good contrast myself (and light background 
themes).

But whatever issues one might find with a black-on-white icon set, low 
contrast is unlikely to be one of them.

Even though I suppose the base background color of the frame also plays 
a role.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Visuwesh]

[புதன் ஆகஸ்ட் 24, 2022] Dmitry Gutov wrote:

>
> On 24.08.2022 19:08, Payas Relekar wrote:
>> Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>  writes:
>> 
>>> "decent contrast" is a fairly low bar.
>>>
>> Yet surprising amount of*modern*  software fails to clear it..
>> I'm just glad modus-themes makes 'contrast' issues thing of the past
>> in
>> Emacs. Now if icons acheive the same feat, I might just enable the
>> toolbar.
>
> I'm very much in favor of good contrast myself (and light background
> themes).
>
> But whatever issues one might find with a black-on-white icon set, low
> contrast is unlikely to be one of them.
>
> Even though I suppose the base background color of the frame also
> plays a role.

Like you said in your reply to Po Lu, the lack of "visual detail" is a
major pain point with these monochrome icons.  When I used GIMP for the
first time in a while, I was hit by their new monochrome (low contrast
too) icons and I was handicapped.  I could not tell which icon was which
tool from a glance and I had to wait for the tooltip to show up.  I
regularly have this problem with drawing as well.

The fully coloured icons help me to tell what one thing does in a glance
as I look at the "colour" and decide what I need but with monochrome
icons, I have to rely on the detail which is more taxing on my brain
when I'm in auto-pilot.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Tim Cross]

Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com> writes:

> [புதன் ஆகஸ்ட் 24, 2022] Dmitry Gutov wrote:
>
>>
>> On 24.08.2022 19:08, Payas Relekar wrote:
>>> Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>  writes:
>>> 
>>>> "decent contrast" is a fairly low bar.
>>>>
>>> Yet surprising amount of*modern*  software fails to clear it..
>>> I'm just glad modus-themes makes 'contrast' issues thing of the past
>>> in
>>> Emacs. Now if icons acheive the same feat, I might just enable the
>>> toolbar.
>>
>> I'm very much in favor of good contrast myself (and light background
>> themes).
>>
>> But whatever issues one might find with a black-on-white icon set, low
>> contrast is unlikely to be one of them.
>>
>> Even though I suppose the base background color of the frame also
>> plays a role.
>
> Like you said in your reply to Po Lu, the lack of "visual detail" is a
> major pain point with these monochrome icons.  When I used GIMP for the
> first time in a while, I was hit by their new monochrome (low contrast
> too) icons and I was handicapped.  I could not tell which icon was which
> tool from a glance and I had to wait for the tooltip to show up.  I
> regularly have this problem with drawing as well.
>
> The fully coloured icons help me to tell what one thing does in a glance
> as I look at the "colour" and decide what I need but with monochrome
> icons, I have to rely on the detail which is more taxing on my brain
> when I'm in auto-pilot.

I think the following sums up the current trend quite well ...

https://images.app.goo.gl/gs8AWu183rq7peTPA

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Angelo Graziosi]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 317 bytes --]

> I've just pushed the branch scratch/icons

I have build that branch on Windows (10). The result is that Emacs toolbar has the icons shown in the attached emacs-new-icons.png.


For completeness I attached the old, emacs-old-icons.png, current in master, result.

In my opinion, the old is better...

Ciao,
  Angelo.

[-- Attachment #2: emacs-new-icons.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 4174 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: emacs-old-icons.png --]
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Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 24.08.2022 15:43, Angelo Graziosi wrote:
> For completeness I attached the old, emacs-old-icons.png, current in master, result.
> 
> In my opinion, the old is better...

Thanks.

I think the new one is better. Though perhaps not in all desktop 
environments.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 16:05:14 +0300
> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> 
> On 24.08.2022 15:43, Angelo Graziosi wrote:
> > For completeness I attached the old, emacs-old-icons.png, current in master, result.
> > 
> > In my opinion, the old is better...
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> I think the new one is better.

But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
is going to be loved.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Visuwesh]

[புதன் ஆகஸ்ட் 24, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>
>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 16:05:14 +0300
>> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
>> 
>> On 24.08.2022 15:43, Angelo Graziosi wrote:
>> > For completeness I attached the old, emacs-old-icons.png, current
>> > in master, result.
>> > 
>> > In my opinion, the old is better...
>> 
>> Thanks.
>> 
>> I think the new one is better.
>
> But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
> is going to be loved.

I think the current trend is in the opposite direction?  Everywhere I
go, it is monochrome icons, or the same colour scheme for all the icons
making them indistinguishable (looking at you Google).

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com>
> Cc: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,  angelo.g0@libero.it,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 18:56:16 +0530
> 
> [புதன் ஆகஸ்ட் 24, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:
> 
> >
> >> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 16:05:14 +0300
> >> From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> >> 
> >> On 24.08.2022 15:43, Angelo Graziosi wrote:
> >> > For completeness I attached the old, emacs-old-icons.png, current
> >> > in master, result.
> >> > 
> >> > In my opinion, the old is better...
> >> 
> >> Thanks.
> >> 
> >> I think the new one is better.
> >
> > But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
> > is going to be loved.
> 
> I think the current trend is in the opposite direction?  Everywhere I
> go, it is monochrome icons, or the same colour scheme for all the icons
> making them indistinguishable (looking at you Google).

Some progress...  What next? back to 640KB memory?

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Visuwesh]

[புதன் ஆகஸ்ட் 24, 2022] Eli Zaretskii wrote:

>> > But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
>> > is going to be loved.
>> 
>> I think the current trend is in the opposite direction?  Everywhere I
>> go, it is monochrome icons, or the same colour scheme for all the icons
>> making them indistinguishable (looking at you Google).
>
> Some progress...  What next? back to 640KB memory?

Well retro computing is always hot...

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Stefan Monnier]

>> I think the current trend is in the opposite direction?  Everywhere I
>> go, it is monochrome icons, or the same colour scheme for all the icons
>> making them indistinguishable (looking at you Google).
>
> Some progress...  What next? back to 640KB memory?

No, the end result may look like what we had back then, but the resource
consumption never goes back.


        Stefan

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>
> Cc: Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com>,  dgutov@yandex.ru,  angelo.g0@libero.it,
>   emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 12:23:42 -0400
> 
> >> I think the current trend is in the opposite direction?  Everywhere I
> >> go, it is monochrome icons, or the same colour scheme for all the icons
> >> making them indistinguishable (looking at you Google).
> >
> > Some progress...  What next? back to 640KB memory?
> 
> No, the end result may look like what we had back then, but the resource
> consumption never goes back.

There are always overlays (in program memory, I mean, not display
overlays we use in Emacs).  Lots of fun!

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com> writes:

> I think the current trend is in the opposite direction?  Everywhere I
> go, it is monochrome icons, or the same colour scheme for all the icons
> making them indistinguishable (looking at you Google).

A horrible habit, rendering the icons in modern Android programs almost
useless.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Visuwesh]

[வியாழன் ஆகஸ்ட் 25, 2022] Po Lu wrote:

> Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> I think the current trend is in the opposite direction?  Everywhere I
>> go, it is monochrome icons, or the same colour scheme for all the icons
>> making them indistinguishable (looking at you Google).
>
> A horrible habit, rendering the icons in modern Android programs almost
> useless.

Tell me about it, I switched away from an old Android 6 device to an
Android 12 one [1] and the new Google icons were so awful to use.  I was
not able to tell which app was Maps from a glance and I suffered the
same pain a lot of people suffered.


1. Yes, I shouldn't have switched away but that device's battery life is
   painfully low and I wouldn't hope to find an actually good
   replacement battery for it...

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
> is going to be loved.

Yeah, that's my only fundamental problem with the icons on the branch
themselves.

I hope the old icons have been kept and can easily be switched back to.
Or maybe the new icons should be made part of a different custom theme,
instead of the default.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Angelo Graziosi]

> Il 24/08/2022 15:36 Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> ha scritto:
> 
>  
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
> > is going to be loved.
> 
> Yeah, that's my only fundamental problem with the icons on the branch
> themselves.
> 
> I hope the old icons have been kept and can easily be switched back to.
> Or maybe the new icons should be made part of a different custom theme,
> instead of the default.

The new icons are not yet included in master and one is already thinking of using the old ones... (me too!)

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> I hope the old icons have been kept and can easily be switched back to.

We can make sure to make this as easy as possible, yes.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Angelo Graziosi]

> Il 24/08/2022 15:22 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> ha scritto:
> 
>  
> > Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 16:05:14 +0300
> > From: Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>
> > 
> > On 24.08.2022 15:43, Angelo Graziosi wrote:
> > > For completeness I attached the old, emacs-old-icons.png, current in master, result.
> > > 
> > > In my opinion, the old is better...
> > 
> > Thanks.
> > 
> > I think the new one is better.
> 
> But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
> is going to be loved.

This is what I meant...

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 24.08.2022 16:22, Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>> Date: Wed, 24 Aug 2022 16:05:14 +0300
>> From: Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>
>>
>> On 24.08.2022 15:43, Angelo Graziosi wrote:
>>> For completeness I attached the old, emacs-old-icons.png, current in master, result.
>>>
>>> In my opinion, the old is better...
>> Thanks.
>>
>> I think the new one is better.
> But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
> is going to be loved.

The exact (two) colors are themable with faces, I suppose, but yes, we 
do lose a little "character' that way.

OTOH, black-and-white has much higher odds of being compatible with an 
arbitrary color themes/desktops/toolkits, so it should be a good choice 
just by being neutral. Unlike the previous icon set which only really 
fit the default GNOME 2 palette.

And if we really wanted more character, we should order our own icon 
set. Perhaps ask some volunteer designer, to make sure they fit the 
default color theme, or to create a new color theme as well. It's a big 
project, so wouldn't exactly rely on this happening in time for Emacs 29.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> OTOH, black-and-white has much higher odds of being compatible with an
> arbitrary color themes/desktops/toolkits, so it should be a good
> choice just by being neutral. Unlike the previous icon set which only
> really fit the default GNOME 2 palette.

Actually that's not quite true.  The previous icon set shows up with
decent contrast on top of any background, since all the icons are a
solid block of color.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 24.08.2022 16:58, Po Lu wrote:
> Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>  writes:
> 
>> OTOH, black-and-white has much higher odds of being compatible with an
>> arbitrary color themes/desktops/toolkits, so it should be a good
>> choice just by being neutral. Unlike the previous icon set which only
>> really fit the default GNOME 2 palette.
> Actually that's not quite true.  The previous icon set shows up with
> decent contrast on top of any background, since all the icons are a
> solid block of color.

"decent contrast" is a fairly low bar.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> "decent contrast" is a fairly low bar.

It's an icon, it's supposed to provide visual contrast so that you can
identify what it represents.

The existing icons do that much better than monocolor ones.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 25.08.2022 04:10, Po Lu wrote:
> Dmitry Gutov<dgutov@yandex.ru>  writes:
> 
>> "decent contrast" is a fairly low bar.
> It's an icon, it's supposed to provide visual contrast so that you can
> identify what it represents.
> 
> The existing icons do that much better than monocolor ones.

Perhaps you meant "more visual detail", then?

Because it's hard to beat black-on-white on contrast.

I suppose I can also agree that these are a little simplistic. But they 
keep in one style, and won't give a random new user impression than 
Emacs hasn't been updated since the 2000s.

Might a different icon set work even better? Sure. Alternative proposals 
are probably welcome too, but see Stefan's full post for caveats.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> Perhaps you meant "more visual detail", then?

I guess that would be a better explanation, yeah.  I was thinking about
the contrast between different icons, not against the background.

> Might a different icon set work even better? Sure. Alternative
> proposals are probably welcome too, but see Stefan's full post for
> caveats.

I think the Adwaita one would work too.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
> is going to be loved.

There is still color: we just use a single one (black).  All in all,
black is not necessarily a bad choice: the text I'm reading now is
black, as is the text in any paperback book.

But we do go from one distinct style to another.  This is true.  It is
inevitable that some people will love a change like this, while others
will hate it.  Others will probably be indifferent.

I think we could think about this from the point of view of what most
users will prefer.  In doing that, we would probably do well to note
current trends in UIX, which definitely have been moving more and more
towards the minimalistic.  Clear icons of a single (or two) colors seem
to be the norm.

I tend to think that this is a valid choice, that, if nothing else,
helps simplify and unclutter the user interface.  This allows users to
focus more on the task at hand rather than unimportant and secondary
details (such as decorations).  The user interface becomes secondary to
the daily work.

I note that these icons have been created by professional designers, as
have the guidelines on how to use them.[1]  This includes the one-color
look.

These icons are immensely popular and used "everywhere" -- which as
Dmitry notes means that we do lose a bit of independent "character".
On the other hand, I think the current icons also don't have much
character, as they are just the default icons coming from GTK/Gnome, if
I understand things correctly.  They look quite generic, and, dare I say
it, dated.

There could be other good icon sets, of course, and we could evaluate
them side-by-side with the material icons.  So far, I didn't find any
that also both have enough coverage, and a free license, but there might
be some that I've missed.

So, in summary, I think the icon set I suggest is both a good and safe
choice, that helps clean up the user interface and give it a more
contemporary look.  I hope that it will be accepted as the default.

Footnotes:
[1] For more on this, please see:
      https://material.io/design/iconography/system-icons.html#color
      https://developers.google.com/fonts/docs/material_icons#coloring

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> I think we could think about this from the point of view of what most
> users will prefer.  In doing that, we would probably do well to note
> current trends in UIX, which definitely have been moving more and more
> towards the minimalistic.  Clear icons of a single (or two) colors seem
> to be the norm.

Let's keep minimizing the user interface until it becomes useless!

I propose that the keyboard be replaced by a streamlined, unobtrusive
interface, where the user can simply pair a mobile phone with Emacs via
Bluetooth and drag-and-drop letters from the phone into each window.

> I tend to think that this is a valid choice, that, if nothing else,
> helps simplify and unclutter the user interface.  This allows users to
> focus more on the task at hand rather than unimportant and secondary
> details (such as decorations).  The user interface becomes secondary to
> the daily work.

I don't understand how a 25x25 icon will serve to "clutter" the user
interface.  Or how switching to mono-color icons will make it less
obtrusive.

If that's the goal, why not turn off widgets entirely? And modelines at
the same time?

> I note that these icons have been created by professional designers, as
> have the guidelines on how to use them.[1]  This includes the one-color
> look.

What is more and more obvious is that professional designers, serving
commercial interests, are only attentive towards creating the "next hot
trend".  So they seriously deem icons with all contrast drained from
them as an improvement.  I do not.

> There could be other good icon sets, of course, and we could evaluate
> them side-by-side with the material icons.  So far, I didn't find any
> that also both have enough coverage, and a free license, but there might
> be some that I've missed.

So what about the current Adwaita icon theme? The color icons, not the
symbolic ones?

They are already used by default on the GTK builds.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,  Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>,
>   angelo.g0@libero.it,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2022 09:23:12 +0800
> 
> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
> 
> > I think we could think about this from the point of view of what most
> > users will prefer.  In doing that, we would probably do well to note
> > current trends in UIX, which definitely have been moving more and more
> > towards the minimalistic.  Clear icons of a single (or two) colors seem
> > to be the norm.
> 
> Let's keep minimizing the user interface until it becomes useless!

Let's not enlarge the noise level here by arguing too much about
defaults.  As long as the defaults can be changed if the user doesn't
like them, the problem is not a grave one.

I don't like the view of these icons, but as long as I can customize
Emacs to use the color ones, I don't mind adding these to Emacs, for
those who like them.  And this comes from an Emacs user who never
disables the tool bar, so the icons are always pretty much into my
face.

So let's stop arguing about this.  The feature must allow easy
customization of the tool-bar icons (like with a flip of a single
variable); other than that, it gets my vote for adding it to Emacs.

Whether to make it the default, is a separate question, which we could
discuss later.  For now, please make it an opt-in feature.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Whether to make it the default, is a separate question, which we could
> discuss later.  For now, please make it an opt-in feature.

As long as it's opt-in, I'm happy too.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Visuwesh]

[புதன் ஆகஸ்ட் 24, 2022] Stefan Kangas wrote:

> There is still color: we just use a single one (black).  All in all,
> black is not necessarily a bad choice: the text I'm reading now is
> black, as is the text in any paperback book.
>
> But we do go from one distinct style to another.  This is true.  It is
> inevitable that some people will love a change like this, while others
> will hate it.  Others will probably be indifferent.
>
> [...]
>
> I note that these icons have been created by professional designers, as
> have the guidelines on how to use them.[1]  This includes the one-color
> look.
>
> [...]
>
> So, in summary, I think the icon set I suggest is both a good and safe
> choice, that helps clean up the user interface and give it a more
> contemporary look.  I hope that it will be accepted as the default.

Considering the complaints against the monochrome icons, what do you
think about using the Haiku icons which are MIT-licensed [1]?  Since
Haiku is a desktop OS, their icons must have had conscious design
decision into them and mainly they are not monochromatic but colourful;
I haven't checked but they _should_ hopefully cover all the icons Emacs
would need.  The icons are not in a common image format but there exists
a GitHub repository [2] that has the icons converted to SVG.

[1] https://www.haiku-inc.org/trademarks/haiku_icons/
[2] https://github.com/darealshinji/haiku-icons

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Jean Louis]

* Visuwesh <visuweshm@gmail.com> [2022-08-25 15:57]:
> [1] https://www.haiku-inc.org/trademarks/haiku_icons/
> [2] https://github.com/darealshinji/haiku-icons

Those are nice.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Those are nice.

Unfortunately, they come in a special format not yet supported by Emacs.
I guess support for HVIF could be added, but that would be hard outside
of Haiku itself, since there is no ready made library for rasterizing
HVIF images.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Dmitry Gutov]

On 08.09.2022 11:18, Po Lu wrote:
> Jean Louis<bugs@gnu.support>  writes:
> 
>> Those are nice.
> Unfortunately, they come in a special format not yet supported by Emacs.
> I guess support for HVIF could be added, but that would be hard outside
> of Haiku itself, since there is no ready made library for rasterizing
> HVIF images.

There is an SVG directory in there -- somebody made an export.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Jean Louis]

* Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> [2022-09-08 11:19]:
> Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:
> 
> > Those are nice.
> 
> Unfortunately, they come in a special format not yet supported by Emacs.
> I guess support for HVIF could be added, but that would be hard outside
> of Haiku itself, since there is no ready made library for rasterizing
> HVIF images.

I have downloaded them and I am using them as SVG, that HVIF format is
there, but there is SVG and PNG directory as well.

-- 
Jean

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Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> I have downloaded them and I am using them as SVG, that HVIF format is
> there, but there is SVG and PNG directory as well.

Nice.  That's good.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Rudolf Adamkovič]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> But "the new one" looks black-and-white here?  I doubt losing colors
>> is going to be loved.

+Int.max for new *default* icons, but ones with color.

I know the latest "UX fashion" says no to color icons, but we should
care about usability first and foremost.  Fashion will change anyway.

> I note that these icons have been created by professional designers,

... who "professionally designed" a floppy disk with the hole near its
edge?  LOL.  I hope we do not want see that kind of *trash* in Emacs.

> There could be other good icon sets, of course, and we could evaluate
> them side-by-side with the material icons.

That would be fantastic, and *thank you* for working on this!

Rudy
-- 
"Programming reliably -- must be an activity of an undeniably
mathematical nature […] You see, mathematics is about thinking, and
doing mathematics is always trying to think as well as possible."
-- Edsger W. Dijkstra, 1981

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Jean Louis]

* Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [2022-08-26 00:26]:
> > I note that these icons have been created by professional designers,
> 
> ... who "professionally designed" a floppy disk with the hole near its
> edge?  LOL.  I hope we do not want see that kind of *trash* in Emacs.

Do you mean the file: Device_Floppy.svg ?

See here: https://miro.medium.com/max/7776/0*bhYsLi0i7kj3Odx-

-- 
Jean

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Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Rudolf Adamkovič]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 103 bytes --]

Jean Louis <bugs@gnu.support> writes:

> Do you mean the file: Device_Floppy.svg ?

No, I meant this:


[-- Attachment #2: emacs-new-icons.png --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 6877 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 247 bytes --]


Rudy
-- 
"The introduction of suitable abstractions is our only mental aid to
organize and master complexity."
-- Edsger Wybe Dijkstra, 1930-2002

Rudolf Adamkovič <salutis@me.com> [he/him]
Studenohorská 25
84103 Bratislava
Slovakia

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru> writes:

> I think the new one is better.

Me too.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Jean Louis]

* Angelo Graziosi <angelo.g0@libero.it> [2022-08-24 15:50]:
> > I've just pushed the branch scratch/icons
> 
> I have build that branch on Windows (10). The result is that Emacs toolbar has the icons shown in the attached emacs-new-icons.png.

Could there be some color for love?

Black white is boring.

-- 
Jean

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Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Hi Emacs,

I've procrastinated on this for long enough, so...

I've just pushed the branch scratch/icons with my work from before Lars
merged his icons.el.  I intend to start finishing this up for merging to
master, including properly merging it with Lars' work.

The idea behind my icons.el is that a user should be able to switch out
all icons at once (to get a consistent look) rather than having to
customize a potentially large number of individual icons.

The work that I've done therefore operate on a different level from
Lars' work: it tries to map an icon name (currently a string) like
"warning" to a concrete file, which could be, e.g.,
"material/alert/warning.svg" or "octicons/alert-16.svg".

The exact file chosen will depend on the available icon sets, the user
option `icons-set-priority', and the font size.[1]

This means you can say:

    (icons-get "content/inventory")
    => #(" " 0 1
         (display
          (image :type svg
                 :file ".../etc/images/material/content/inventory.svg"
                 :scale 1.1052631578947367
                 :ascent center
                 :height (1 . em)
                 :transform-smoothing t)))

    (icons-get-filename "content/inventory")
    => "/home/skangas/wip/emacs/etc/images/material/content/inventory.svg"

My idea is to keep Lars' idea of individual customizable icons, but
leave the choice of which image file to the code I've written.
I imagine that the `warnings-suppress' icon definition in warnings.el
should look something like:

    (define-icon warnings-suppress button
      '((image "warning")                 ;;; <<< NEW LINE >>>
        (emoji "⛔")
        (symbol " ■ ")
        (text " stop "))
      "Suppress warnings."
      :version "29.1"
      :help-echo "Click to suppress this warning type")

From here, "warning" will be fed to my `icons-get', which will be
responsible for producing, e.g., the ".../material/alert/warning.svg"
file from the "materials" icon set, based on whatever knobs we decide to
have.

I have included material icons and octicons as two default sets, to be
distributed with Emacs.  (They would not be considered a part of Emacs
and so don't need to be subject to copyright assignment.)  More icon
sets would be easy to add to either GNU ELPA or core later.

To test this: build the scratch/icons branch, then check the main
toolbar, `M-x list-icons', the `M-x mpc' toolbar, and `M-x compile'.

Note that this is very much WIP still, but any comments are welcome.

Footnotes:
[1] Some icon sets provide more than one version of an icon, intended
    for viewing at smaller and larger sizes.  So asking for "warning"
    should give you either "octicons/alert-16.svg" or
    "octicons/alert-24.svg" depending on the size of the default face.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Po Lu]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> The exact file chosen will depend on the available icon sets, the user
> option `icons-set-priority', and the font size.[1]

>     (define-icon warnings-suppress button
>       '((image "warning")                 ;;; <<< NEW LINE >>>
>         (emoji "⛔")
>         (symbol " ■ ")
>         (text " stop "))
>       "Suppress warnings."
>       :version "29.1"
>       :help-echo "Click to suppress this warning type")

Great, thanks! We will finally have some real icons instead of Emoji and
text.  But please look at the comments I made about providing PBM
images, not deleting existing XPM and PBM icons, and the inability of
colormapped displays to display anything other than XPM and PBM.

AFAIK ImageMagick supports converting icons from SVG to XPM/PBM, so it
should be easy to automate.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Stefan Kangas]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> I've just pushed the branch scratch/icons with my work from before Lars
> merged his icons.el.

By the way, I forgot to note some really nice properties of basing this
on SVG files:

- The icons use the foreground/background of the face at point.  We can
  have different color icons using the same SVG file.

- The icons scale with the face at point.  Inserting them in a headline
  gives a large icon, inserting them in normal text gives a small one.
  In the same buffer.

- The icons scale automatically with text-scale-adjust (i.e. `C-x C-+').

- Unlike the external library all-the-icons.el, this does not depend
  on installing any external font files.

With some SVG files, you need to fiddle around a bit to get it to work
properly.  For example, IIRC you can't set any foreground/background in
the SVG file itself.  But this is a minor detail.

Re: Adding icon sets to Emacs -- and next steps for icons.el

[Lars Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> My idea is to keep Lars' idea of individual customizable icons, but
> leave the choice of which image file to the code I've written.
> I imagine that the `warnings-suppress' icon definition in warnings.el
> should look something like:
>
>     (define-icon warnings-suppress button
>       '((image "warning")                 ;;; <<< NEW LINE >>>
>         (emoji "⛔")
>         (symbol " ■ ")
>         (text " stop "))
>       "Suppress warnings."
>       :version "29.1"
>       :help-echo "Click to suppress this warning type")
>
> From here, "warning" will be fed to my `icons-get', which will be
> responsible for producing, e.g., the ".../material/alert/warning.svg"
> file from the "materials" icon set, based on whatever knobs we decide to
> have.

I don't think it's necessary to have another layer on top of the icons
layer for this, because we already have theming support for icons.  That
is, if we want a Material theme, we'd just do:

(custom-theme-set-icons
  'material
  '(warning-suppress ((image "material/alert/warning.svg" "material/alert/warning.xpm"))
  '(outline-open ((image "material/action/open.svg" "material/action/open.xpm")))))

And then users can just choose that theme.

People that create other themes would distribute the .svg/.xpm files
with the theme definition -- so the degrading from "if Material icons
aren't present, then use these other icons instead" won't happen.