English usage bug in bytecomp.el

English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Alan Mackenzie]

Mark a function obsolete with:

(make-obsolete 'foo 'bar "21.4")

Compile another function which calls `foo'.  The following warning
appears in the *Compile-Log*:

While compiling toplevel forms:
  ** `foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4; use
     `bar' instead.

.  This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage.
Correct is "`foo HAS BEEN an obsolete function since 21.4;".  The
following patch fixes this.

2005-03-07  Alan Mackenzie  <acm@muc.de>

        * bytecomp.el (byte-compile-obsolete): Correct an English Usage
        * bug.

*** bytecomp-2.161.el	Mon Mar  7 19:31:05 2005
--- bytecomp-2.161.acm.el	Mon Mar  7 20:02:28 2005
***************
*** 1038,1044 ****
  	 (when (nth 2 new)))
      (byte-compile-set-symbol-position (car form))
      (if (memq 'obsolete byte-compile-warnings)
! 	(byte-compile-warn "`%s' is an obsolete function%s; %s" (car form)
  			   (if when (concat " since " when) "")
  			   (if (stringp (car new))
  			       (car new)
--- 1038,1045 ----
  	 (when (nth 2 new)))
      (byte-compile-set-symbol-position (car form))
      (if (memq 'obsolete byte-compile-warnings)
! 	(byte-compile-warn "`%s' %s an obsolete function%s; %s" (car form)
! 			   (if when "has been" "is")
  			   (if when (concat " since " when) "")
  			   (if (stringp (car new))
  			       (car new)


-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Miles Bader]

> .  This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage.

I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly
makes sense.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Alan Mackenzie]

Hi Miles and Emacs!

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005, Miles Bader wrote:

[Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"]

>> .  This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage.

>I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly
>makes sense.

<Gnashes teeth>

Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is
WRONG.  It is something that a native English speaker would never say.
In this case, it is just as easy to be correct.

When somebody who loves this bastard mess of a language that is English
reads something like that, the effects are not nice:  First there is
shock.  Within seconds, shock gives way to disbelief, disbelief to pain,
and pain to anger[*].  Finally, anger gives way to an irresistible urge
either to string up the writer or to submit a patch.  Thank <insert your
deity here> the latter is possible with Emacs.

And yes, I know all about speaking and writing a foreign language with
"unnecessarily" complex rules.  I've got the greatest admiration for and
sympathy with people who get to grips with English.

Please install my patch.

[*] Quoted from Lynne Truss's book "Eats, Shoots & Leaves".

>-Miles

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Munich, Germany)

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Nick Roberts]

 > [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"]
 > 
 > >> .  This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage.
 > 
 > >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly
 > >makes sense.
 > 
 > <Gnashes teeth>
 > 
 > Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is
 > WRONG.  It is something that a native English speaker would never say.
 > In this case, it is just as easy to be correct.

I don't know if it's correct or not but I think it is effective use of
English. I think its important to remember that English may not be the first
language for many Emacs users. "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4" is
concise: it tells the user that foo *is* obsolete and then that it became
obsolete in version 21.4. He doesn't have to understand the many forms of past
tense that English can have.


Nick

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Miles Bader]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:02:35 +0000 (GMT), Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
> [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"]
>
> >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly
> >makes sense.
> 
> <Gnashes teeth>
> 
> Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is
> WRONG.  It is something that a native English speaker would never say.
> In this case, it is just as easy to be correct.

Hmm, I'm a native English speaker (and I certainly appreciate fine
language), but I don't mind this at all.  It simply doesn't register
very high on the "feels wrong" scale, though it does a little.

I also agree with Nick that the "correct" form is less clear (and
requires a funny little twiddly bit in the code).

However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less
objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)".

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[David Kastrup]

Nick Roberts <nickrob@snap.net.nz> writes:

>  > [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"]
>  > 
>  > >> .  This combination of "is" and "since" is incorrect English usage.
>  > 
>  > >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly
>  > >makes sense.
>  > 
>  > <Gnashes teeth>
>  > 
>  > Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is
>  > WRONG.  It is something that a native English speaker would never say.
>  > In this case, it is just as easy to be correct.
>
> I don't know if it's correct or not but I think it is effective use of
> English.

"efficient" you mean probably .  Let us just replace every "is not"
and "was not" and "has not" with "ain't".  That is also efficient.

> I think its important to remember that English may not be the first
> language for many Emacs users. "`foo' is an obsolete function since
> 21.4" is concise: it tells the user that foo *is* obsolete and then
> that it became obsolete in version 21.4. He doesn't have to
> understand the many forms of past tense that English can have.

We are not talking about whether it is impossible to make sense out of
what is written.  But I don't see how the non-first language speaker
actively gains anything if we switch to a bastardized version of
English.  We don't require the readers of the manual to write correct
English themselves, we just strive to be understandable even for
non-native speakers.  But I don't see that the correct English usage
here would have any detrimental effects.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[David Kastrup]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> On Tue, 8 Mar 2005 08:02:35 +0000 (GMT), Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de> wrote:
>> [Discussion of "`foo' is an obsolete function since 21.4;"]
>>
>> >I think "is ... since" is pretty common usage actually, and certainly
>> >makes sense.
>> 
>> <Gnashes teeth>
>> 
>> Yes, it does make sense and it is regrettably common usage, but it is
>> WRONG.  It is something that a native English speaker would never say.
>> In this case, it is just as easy to be correct.
>
> Hmm, I'm a native English speaker (and I certainly appreciate fine
> language), but I don't mind this at all.  It simply doesn't register
> very high on the "feels wrong" scale, though it does a little.
>
> I also agree with Nick that the "correct" form is less clear (and
> requires a funny little twiddly bit in the code).
>
> However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less
> objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)".

This does not help really.  If my language sensors are correct, a
non-objectionable phrasing might be

"As of 21.4, Foo is an obsolete function."

But I still don't see that "has been" is something that even a
non-native speaker has any possibility of avoiding to see quite a lot,
anyhow.

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Nick Roberts]

 > >
 > > I don't know if it's correct or not but I think it is effective use of
 > > English.
 > 
 > "efficient" you mean probably .  Let us just replace every "is not"
 > and "was not" and "has not" with "ain't".  That is also efficient.

This is a bit surreal! No, I mean effective as in "it conveys the meaning"
which is what language is intended for, although it might not impress
professors of English. If I had meant efficient, I would have said so. What
is efficient English anyway? Using the minimum number of words/letters?

 > > I think its important to remember that English may not be the first
 > > language for many Emacs users. "`foo' is an obsolete function since
 > > 21.4" is concise: it tells the user that foo *is* obsolete and then
 > > that it became obsolete in version 21.4. He doesn't have to
 > > understand the many forms of past tense that English can have.
 > 
 > We are not talking about whether it is impossible to make sense out of
 > what is written.  But I don't see how the non-first language speaker
 > actively gains anything if we switch to a bastardized version of
 > English.  We don't require the readers of the manual to write correct
 > English themselves, we just strive to be understandable even for
 > non-native speakers.  But I don't see that the correct English usage
 > here would have any detrimental effects.

If I remember correctly, "has been an obsolete function" is the perfect tense,
and suggests a completed action i.e it has been obsolete but what is its
status now. It has some ambiguity.

Anyway, lets not delude ourselves, the international language is American
English, perhaps it also sounds natural on that side of the Atlantic.

Nick.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Stefan Monnier]

> When somebody who loves this bastard mess of a language that is English
> reads something like that, the effects are not nice:  First there is
> shock.  Within seconds, shock gives way to disbelief, disbelief to pain,
> and pain to anger[*].  Finally, anger gives way to an irresistible urge
> either to string up the writer or to submit a patch.  Thank <insert your
> deity here> the latter is possible with Emacs.

I hereby apologize for causing you discomfort and pain and I hope you will
keep your anger under control.

I'm indeed not a native speaker, but I did know about the "past perfect with
for/since" rule (even though it seems that while doing my studies in the
US has significantly increased my familiarity and fluency in English it
made my grammar significantly more sloppy).

My excuse for the mess is that the original message was "foo is obsolete;
use bar" and I just added "since XX" without noticing the need for the
verb's tense to be adjusted.


        Stefan

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[John S. Yates, Jr.]

>"As of 21.4, Foo is an obsolete function."

Another alternative:

  "Foo is an obsolete function. Foo was deprecated 
   (alternatively: declared obsolete) in release 21.4."

/john
--
John Yates
257 Nashoba Rd.
Concord, MA 01742
978 371-4923

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Bill Wohler]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> writes:

> However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less
> objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)".

That's not too bad, although I prefer the "has been" variant. Here is
yet another using a fairly simple past tense with a word that might
not be known to non-programmers:

  FOO was deprecated in 21.4

If anyone in this list does not know what deprecated means, please
raise your hand.

If the word deprecated is not known to all, then:

  FOO was made obsolete in 21.4

On a different topic, it would be useful if the message indicated a
replacement.

-- 
Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com>  http://www.newt.com/wohler/  GnuPG ID:610BD9AD
Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. Vote Libertarian!
If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Andreas Schwab]

Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com> writes:

> On a different topic, it would be useful if the message indicated a
> replacement.

It does.

Andreas.

-- 
Andreas Schwab, SuSE Labs, schwab@suse.de
SuSE Linux Products GmbH, Maxfeldstraße 5, 90409 Nürnberg, Germany
Key fingerprint = 58CA 54C7 6D53 942B 1756  01D3 44D5 214B 8276 4ED5
"And now for something completely different."

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Nick Roberts]

 > That's not too bad, although I prefer the "has been" variant. Here is
 > yet another using a fairly simple past tense with a word that might
 > not be known to non-programmers:
 > 
 >   FOO was deprecated in 21.4
 > 

Yes, this a good point. Obsolete generally means that it has been removed from
the code cannot be used but the that doesn't appear to be the case
here. Deprecated (at least in the programming world/US) means that it can
still be used but it will become obsolete shortly.

Perhaps the directory emacs/lisp/obsolete should be renamed
emacs/lisp/deprecated, make-obsolete-variable -> make-deprecated-variable etc


Nick

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Miles Bader]

On Tue, 08 Mar 2005 08:08:21 -0800, Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com> wrote:
> > However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less
> > objectionable would be "FOO is an obsolete function (since 21.4)".
> 
> That's not too bad, although I prefer the "has been" variant. Here is
> yet another using a fairly simple past tense with a word that might
> not be known to non-programmers:

The thing is that the version where it was made past tense really
isn't that important, but people seem to be focusing on it.

I think David's suggestion of "as of" is good, though I think better
as a simple replacement for "since" than at the front:

   FOO is an obsolete function (as of 21.4)

[Maybe it really ought to say "emacs version 21.4" but I assume it's
also good to keep the message short so it doesn't wrap.]

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Bill Wohler]

Miles Bader <snogglethorpe@gmail.com> wrote:

> The thing is that the version where it was made past tense really
> isn't that important

Agreed. Maybe we can drop it from the message. Stefan? ;-)

-- 
Bill Wohler <wohler@newt.com>  http://www.newt.com/wohler/  GnuPG ID:610BD9AD
Maintainer of comp.mail.mh FAQ and MH-E. Vote Libertarian!
If you're passed on the right, you're in the wrong lane.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Richard Stallman]

We may as well make the text sound better.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Richard Stallman]

    However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less
    objectionable would be

How about "FOO is an obsolete function (now and since 21.4)".
Or "FOO is an obsolete function (marked obsolete in Emacs 21.4)".

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[David Kastrup]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>     However, a variant which might be even clearer, and maybe less
>     objectionable would be
>
> How about "FOO is an obsolete function (now and since 21.4)".

That sounds weird when encountered in the 21.4 release, so one would
need to edit this _again_ after 21.4 has been released (do a
s/21\.4/22.1/g on this posting so that it makes sense).  And actually,
it still contains the same grammatical offender, only masked in
alternatives.

> Or "FOO is an obsolete function (marked obsolete in Emacs 21.4)".

"FOO is an obsolete function and has been obsolete since 21.4."

Uh, same problem as with your initial proposal: sounds weird in 21.4
itself.

How about:

"FOO is an obsolete function in version 21.4 and later."

-- 
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Miles Bader]

On Wed, 09 Mar 2005 10:49:50 +0100, David Kastrup <dak@gnu.org> wrote:
> "FOO is an obsolete function in version 21.4 and later."

Your original suggestion of "as of" seems better:

   "FOO is an obsolete function (as of Emacs 21.4)"

Seems simple, correct, very clear, and is just about the smallest
change you could make.

I think it's good enough that I've gone ahead and and changed it; if
people want to continue arguing, I just give up.

-Miles
-- 
Do not taunt Happy Fun Ball.

Re: English usage bug in bytecomp.el

[Richard Stallman]

    I think David's suggestion of "as of" is good, though I think better
    as a simple replacement for "since" than at the front:

       FOO is an obsolete function (as of 21.4)

That looks good.