bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

Severity: wishlist

I have only ever heard the term CUA in the context of Emacs.  I imagine
that most new users, who is likely to be the target audience, will have
no earthly idea what it means.  Only a very small subset of users will
be familiar enough with UI design standards to immediately recognize it.

The problem of course is to come up with a better name.  How does
`familiar-keybindings-mode' sound?  Or even `modern-keybindings-mode'?

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Thu, 10 Sep 2020 17:41:18 -0700
> 
> I have only ever heard the term CUA in the context of Emacs.  I imagine
> that most new users, who is likely to be the target audience, will have
> no earthly idea what it means.  Only a very small subset of users will
> be familiar enough with UI design standards to immediately recognize it.
> 
> The problem of course is to come up with a better name.  How does
> `familiar-keybindings-mode' sound?  Or even `modern-keybindings-mode'?

Please review the issue in its entirety: the name of the command, its
doc string, the text displayed in the respective menu item, the text
in the user manual.  Since you are talking about discoverability, we
must consider all of these, because the command's name is not the only
method of discovering it, not even the most important one.

Thanks.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Sebastian Urban]

 > Rename cua-mode to something better?
 >
 > (...) I imagine that most new users, who is likely to be the target
 > audience (...)

Since it's about "new users", I think they won't use M-x cua-mode, but
rather <menu-bar><options>, and there is "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with
C-x/C-c/C-v)", which tells user a bit.  There is also "CUA Bindings"
section in the manual.

Besides, names like "familiar-keybindings-mode ",
"modern-keybindings-mode" can mean anything, while CUA is CUA, I
guess.


S. U.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2020 14:01:10 +0200, Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com> said:

    >> Rename cua-mode to something better?
    >> 
    >> (...) I imagine that most new users, who is likely to be the target
    >> audience (...)

    Sebastian> Since it's about "new users", I think they won't use M-x cua-mode, but
    Sebastian> rather <menu-bar><options>, and there is "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with
    Sebastian> C-x/C-c/C-v)", which tells user a bit.  There is also "CUA Bindings"
    Sebastian> section in the manual.

Iʼd go so far as to drop the "Use CUA Keys" bit completely: itʼs
meaningless to 99.99% of people.

Robert

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Please review the issue in its entirety: the name of the command, its
> doc string, the text displayed in the respective menu item, the text
> in the user manual.  Since you are talking about discoverability, we
> must consider all of these, because the command's name is not the only
> method of discovering it, not even the most important one.

I see your point.

Maybe we could just rename the section (info "(emacs) CUA Bindings")
into something more descriptive?

The cua-mode doc string could also be improved to start with the part
that says what it actually does.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>     Sebastian> Since it's about "new users", I think they won't use M-x cua-mode, but
>     Sebastian> rather <menu-bar><options>, and there is "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with
>     Sebastian> C-x/C-c/C-v)", which tells user a bit.  There is also "CUA Bindings"
>     Sebastian> section in the manual.
>
> Iʼd go so far as to drop the "Use CUA Keys" bit completely: itʼs
> meaningless to 99.99% of people.

Agreed.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:19:51 -0700
> Cc: 43323@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> Maybe we could just rename the section (info "(emacs) CUA Bindings")
> into something more descriptive?
> 
> The cua-mode doc string could also be improved to start with the part
> that says what it actually does.

Feel free to suggest the specific changes.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

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Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> Maybe we could just rename the section (info "(emacs) CUA Bindings")
>> into something more descriptive?
>>
>> The cua-mode doc string could also be improved to start with the part
>> that says what it actually does.
>
> Feel free to suggest the specific changes.

How about the attached?

The doc string was based on define-minor-mode so I don't see an easy
solution.

[-- Attachment #2: cua-mode-doc.diff --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 2114 bytes --]

diff --git a/doc/emacs/emacs.texi b/doc/emacs/emacs.texi
index 6aed7bd92a..fd3997462f 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/emacs.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/emacs.texi
@@ -319,7 +319,7 @@ Top
 * Cut and Paste::       Clipboard and selections on graphical displays.
 * Accumulating Text::   Other methods to add text to the buffer.
 * Rectangles::          Operating on text in rectangular areas.
-* CUA Bindings::        Using @kbd{C-x}/@kbd{C-c}/@kbd{C-v} to kill and yank.
+* Alternative Bindings:: Using @kbd{C-x}/@kbd{C-c}/@kbd{C-v} to kill and yank.
 
 Deletion and Killing
 
diff --git a/doc/emacs/killing.texi b/doc/emacs/killing.texi
index bd7dbb6f51..1f5f456f4b 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/killing.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/killing.texi
@@ -23,7 +23,7 @@ Killing
 * Cut and Paste::        Clipboard and selections on graphical displays.
 * Accumulating Text::    Other methods to add text to the buffer.
 * Rectangles::           Operating on text in rectangular areas.
-* CUA Bindings::         Using @kbd{C-x}/@kbd{C-c}/@kbd{C-v} to kill and yank.
+* Alternative Bindings:: Using @kbd{C-x}/@kbd{C-c}/@kbd{C-v} to kill and yank.
 @end menu
 
 @node Deletion and Killing
@@ -888,8 +888,8 @@ Rectangles
 want to modify the dimensions of the region-rectangle before invoking
 an operation on the marked text.
 
-@node CUA Bindings
-@section CUA Bindings
+@node Alternative Bindings
+@section Alternative Bindings (CUA Mode)
 @findex cua-mode
 @vindex cua-mode
 @cindex CUA key bindings
diff --git a/doc/emacs/msdos.texi b/doc/emacs/msdos.texi
index 48492ab2f2..d49ebb67b5 100644
--- a/doc/emacs/msdos.texi
+++ b/doc/emacs/msdos.texi
@@ -545,7 +545,7 @@ Windows Keyboard
 before Microsoft was founded.)  Examples of conflicts include
 @kbd{C-c}, @kbd{C-x}, @kbd{C-z}, @kbd{C-a}, and @kbd{W-@key{SPC}}.
 You can redefine some of them with meanings more like the MS-Windows
-meanings by enabling CUA Mode (@pxref{CUA Bindings}).  Another
+meanings by enabling CUA Mode (@pxref{Alternative Bindings}).  Another
 optional feature which will make Emacs behave like other Windows
 applications is Delete Selection mode (@pxref{Using Region}).
 

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

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Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>     Sebastian> Since it's about "new users", I think they won't use M-x cua-mode, but
>     Sebastian> rather <menu-bar><options>, and there is "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with
>     Sebastian> C-x/C-c/C-v)", which tells user a bit.  There is also "CUA Bindings"
>     Sebastian> section in the manual.
>
> Iʼd go so far as to drop the "Use CUA Keys" bit completely: itʼs
> meaningless to 99.99% of people.

How about this?

[-- Attachment #2: cua-mode-menu.diff --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 516 bytes --]

diff --git a/lisp/menu-bar.el b/lisp/menu-bar.el
index bc094c9050..37f3b494c8 100644
--- a/lisp/menu-bar.el
+++ b/lisp/menu-bar.el
@@ -1515,7 +1515,7 @@ menu-bar-options-menu
     (bindings--define-key menu [cua-mode]
       (menu-bar-make-mm-toggle
        cua-mode
-       "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with C-x/C-c/C-v)"
+       "Cut/Paste with C-x/C-c/C-v (CUA Mode)"
        "Use C-z/C-x/C-c/C-v keys for undo/cut/copy/paste"
        (:visible (or (not (boundp 'cua-enable-cua-keys))
 		     cua-enable-cua-keys))))

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Sebastian Urban]

 >>> Since it's about "new users", I think they won't use M-x cua-mode, but
 >>> rather <menu-bar><options>, and there is "Use CUA Keys (Cut/Paste with
 >>> C-x/C-c/C-v)", which tells user a bit.  There is also "CUA Bindings"
 >>> section in the manual.
 >>
 >> Iʼd go so far as to drop the "Use CUA Keys" bit completely: itʼs
 >> meaningless to 99.99% of people.
 >
 > How about this?

What about tooltips?  Since the description of this menu entry is in
the tooltip, we could leave only "Use CUA Keys" and remove "(Cut/Paste
with C-x/C-c/C-v)".


S. U.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com> writes:

> What about tooltips?  Since the description of this menu entry is in
> the tooltip, we could leave only "Use CUA Keys" and remove "(Cut/Paste
> with C-x/C-c/C-v)".

That is actually the opposite of what I would want to do.  If anything,
I think the "CUA Keys" part should be taken out since that is the one
that is hard to understand.

Yet we are a bit stuck with this name for historical reasons, so it is
hard to drop it completely.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > I have only ever heard the term CUA in the context of Emacs.  I imagine
  > that most new users, who is likely to be the target audience, will have
  > no earthly idea what it means.  Only a very small subset of users will
  > be familiar enough with UI design standards to immediately recognize it.

Based on this, it sounds like the practical issue that matters for us
is not "support for CUA" but something else, some practical
incompatibility.  What do those users actually complain about or ask
for?

You may be right that there is no particular point in talking about
"CUA" nowadays, and that the command names and menu items should be
changed.



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:41:25 -0700
> Cc: 43323@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> > Iʼd go so far as to drop the "Use CUA Keys" bit completely: itʼs
> > meaningless to 99.99% of people.
> 
> How about this?

LGTM, thanks.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Sebastian Urban <mrsebastianurban@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 23:22:18 +0200
> 
> What about tooltips?  Since the description of this menu entry is in
> the tooltip, we could leave only "Use CUA Keys" and remove "(Cut/Paste
> with C-x/C-c/C-v)".

That'd be a step in the wrong direction: the menu item should be
sufficiently self-explanatory.  And we just established that "CUA" is
not something whose meaning many users will immediately understand.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2020 12:41:20 -0700
> Cc: 43323@debbugs.gnu.org
> 
> diff --git a/doc/emacs/emacs.texi b/doc/emacs/emacs.texi
> index 6aed7bd92a..fd3997462f 100644
> --- a/doc/emacs/emacs.texi
> +++ b/doc/emacs/emacs.texi
> @@ -319,7 +319,7 @@ Top
>  * Cut and Paste::       Clipboard and selections on graphical displays.
>  * Accumulating Text::   Other methods to add text to the buffer.
>  * Rectangles::          Operating on text in rectangular areas.
> -* CUA Bindings::        Using @kbd{C-x}/@kbd{C-c}/@kbd{C-v} to kill and yank.
> +* Alternative Bindings:: Using @kbd{C-x}/@kbd{C-c}/@kbd{C-v} to kill and yank.

"Alternative Bindings" has no mnemonic value.  Can we come up with a
better name?  How about "Common Editing Shortcuts"?

Also, the text should have something about what CUA is and how it is
related to this stuff.

Thanks.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Sebastian Urban]

 >> What about tooltips?  Since the description of this menu entry is in
 >> the tooltip, we could leave only "Use CUA Keys" and remove "(Cut/Paste
 >> with C-x/C-c/C-v)".
 >
 > That'd be a step in the wrong direction: the menu item should be
 > sufficiently self-explanatory.

Well, CUA keys are CUA keys, so it is self-explanatory, and if someone
doesn't know what it is, and for some reason don't want to look for
explanation in the manual/internet, then tooltip comes to the rescue.

 > And we just established that "CUA" is not something whose meaning
 > many users will immediately understand.

So what?  The tooltip will give them a tip about what it is.


In my opinion, these menu entry name & manual changes are unnecessary.


S. U.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Sebastian Urban]

> In my opinion, these menu entry name & manual changes are unnecessary. 

So, after reading "Gather a list of confusions beginner tend to have"
thread in emacs-devel, especially (part of) message by Tomas:

    Witness: CUA. Most people think these days "CUA" means: "Copy" [1]
    is bound to "C-c", "Cut" [2] is bound to "C-x" and "Paste" [3] to
    "C-v".

    But according to IBM's "Common User Architecture" (aka "CUA" [4]),
    it's "C-Insert", "S-Del", and "S-Ins" respectively. But Apple's [5]
    infantilised version ("C-x" is the "scissors", etc.) somehow snuck
    in.

I guess I was too optimistic about CUA "standard", and proposal to
rename cua-mode to something else, as well as other related changes,
are actually good.


S. U.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Sebastian Urban]

> How about "Common Editing Shortcuts"?

Maybe "Common Editing Bindings" and "ceb-mode"?

Then menu entry could be renamed to "Use Common Editing Bindings" or
"Use Common Bindings" with short description - "Use C-z/C-x/C-c/C-v
keys for undo/cut/copy/paste" - inside the tooltip.


S. U.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

close 43323 28.1
thanks

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> LGTM, thanks.

Thanks.  Now pushed to master as commit 817dd54649.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Stefan Kangas]

reopen 43323
thanks

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> close 43323 28.1
> thanks
>
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> LGTM, thanks.
>
> Thanks.  Now pushed to master as commit 817dd54649.

I sent that to the wrong bug by mistake, ugh.

So I pushed commit 2c62e9b20d with the above proposed change, and I'm
also reopening this bug.

Apologies for any confusion.

bug#43323: Rename cua-mode to something better?

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > Then menu entry could be renamed to "Use Common Editing Bindings" or
  > "Use Common Bindings" with short description - "Use C-z/C-x/C-c/C-v
  > keys for undo/cut/copy/paste" - inside the tooltip.

Instead of "Use common bindings", whose meaning is not obvious unless
you've been told, I suggest calling it "undo/cut/copy/paste: Emacs" or
"undo/cut/copy/paste: a la mode", depending on which one it would be
switching to.  Or just "undo/cut/copy/paste" if there is no need to indicate
which one it would be switching to.

Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:

  > The users we’re trying to help are already used to Redo being bound to
  > Ctrl+Shift+Z (because Redo is the inverse of Undo which is usually on
  > Ctrl+Z).

It is a general Emacs convention taht Ctrl-Shift-LETTER is equivalent to
Ctrl-LETTER.  But since this would be an optional alternate set of bindings,
there is no reason not to do it that way.

Perhaps that one option would rebind C-Sh-Z along with C-z.

HOWEVER, on ttys there is the danger that the user would have
no way to suspend Emacs.  It's not enough to define one,
we have to inform these users of it and make sure they know it.

Any ideas?



-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)