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From: "Drew Adams" <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: "'Stefan Monnier'" <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
	"'Eli Zaretskii'" <eliz@gnu.org>
Cc: jasonspiro4@gmail.com, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org,
	1305@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com
Subject: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual	bellinstead
Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:28:14 -0800	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <00ff01c942fd$83132980$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <jwvej1kpc9t.fsf-monnier+emacsbugreports@gnu.org>

> > No, that's not the intent.  The intent is to make the 
> > visible bell the default.  To turn it off, you turn off
> > visible-bell, which makes Emacs
> > beep again, and then turn off the speakers.
> 
> Indeed.  A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that 
> we have no guarantee that the bell can actually be heard 

Indeed not. That the bell might not be heard is no reason to use the visible
bell. That just doesn't follow. This is not about guaranteeing that the user's
attention be drawn. This is not a fire alarm.

It is typically just a minor reminder, akin to the "Wrapped" indication in
Isearch that lets you know when you've reached the end of the buffer. And a
clear message like that is typically better and sufficient.

Many, if not most, uses of the bell are probably unnecessary. That's no reason
to replace them with a visible bell. Just get rid of the ones that are
inappropriate.

> (e.g. I usually turn it off because I usually consider that a computer
> should be as close to silent as possible, except when I
> specifically ask otherwise (.e.g listing to music or whatching a video)).

I feel the same and I do the same. However, that is *not* a good reason to use
visible-bell by default. I don't want to lose silence with no distraction only
to gain silence with visible annoyance by default. That's a bad trade.

If this is about the default behavior, and it is generally agreed that such
frequent distractions serve little purpose and are annoying, then they will
remain so if they are simply moved from sound to sight. That's running in
circles around the problem, not fixing it.

> The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than 
> the user, whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other 
> people than the user herself.

As Eli said, just get rid of gratuitous uses of the bell. It's likely that there
are plenty. And that will leave the more appropriate uses, if there are any.

Someone (Jason?) mentioned the bell when quitting and when an error is raised.
Those are very common uses that could no doubt be eliminated. Each error should
display a message anyway, and there is no need for a bell when you quit (C-q).
Getting rid of even just those occurrences would take care of much of the
annoyance.

Or if you prefer, leave those occurrences in, but add an option or two:
`bell-when-quit-flag' and `bell-when-error-flag' - with default values nil.
Perhaps let the values be `bell', `visible-bell', `bell+visible-bell', and nil.

Or some such. IOW, if you really must change something, reduce the current use
of the bell and visible bell. Please do not simply substitute visible-bell for
bell. That is a poor solution to the problem of frequent bell distraction.








  reply	other threads:[~2008-11-10  6:28 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 180+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2008-11-09  1:50 bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Jason Spiro
2008-11-09  2:00 ` Processed: " Emacs bug Tracking System
2008-11-09  3:57 ` bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead Drew Adams
2008-11-09  4:08   ` Jason Spiro
2008-11-09 19:17     ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-11-09 19:04   ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-11-09 19:19     ` Drew Adams
2008-11-09 20:00       ` Eli Zaretskii
2008-11-10  2:07         ` Stefan Monnier
2008-11-10  6:28           ` Drew Adams [this message]
2008-11-11 21:20             ` bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should usevisual bellinstead Drew Adams
2008-11-10  8:34           ` bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead Lennart Borgman
2008-11-10 15:22             ` Stefan Monnier
2008-11-10 16:58               ` Lennart Borgman
2008-11-11 18:38                 ` Jason A. Spiro
2008-11-10 22:17           ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-11-11 18:50             ` Jason Spiro
2008-11-12  3:33               ` Richard M. Stallman
2008-11-13  7:41                 ` Jason Spiro
2021-04-17  6:06           ` bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bell instead Stefan Kangas
2021-04-17  7:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-17 11:54             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-17 12:31               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-17 12:39                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-17 12:55                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-17 13:07                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-17 13:13                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-17 13:32                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-17 13:39                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-17 14:05                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-17 14:08                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 10:41                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 12:22                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 13:32                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 15:23                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 15:42                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-17 19:17                           ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-04-17 17:01                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-17 20:59                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-17 21:09                           ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2021-04-17 21:17                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-17 21:52                               ` Michael Welsh Duggan
2021-04-17 22:04                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-17 23:30                                   ` bug#1305: [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-18 10:38                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 12:22                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 12:36                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 13:10                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 13:15                                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 15:22                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 15:28                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-18 15:38                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 18:34                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-19 12:37                                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 13:04                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-19 13:26                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-25 18:06                                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 20:06                                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-19 13:30                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 17:02                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 17:13                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-18 18:02                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 18:35                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 18:45                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 19:04                                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 19:19                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 15:06                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-18 15:11                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 15:23                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-18 15:35                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-19 12:56                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 13:12                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-25 18:03                                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 18:52                                                     ` Andreas Schwab
2021-04-25 19:01                                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 19:18                                                         ` Andreas Schwab
2021-04-25 19:33                                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 16:07                                             ` Andreas Schwab
2021-04-19 12:38                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 16:12                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 16:20                                               ` Andreas Schwab
2021-04-19 12:39                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-18 15:18                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-18 15:26                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-18 15:37                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 16:27                                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-18 16:38                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 17:05                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-18 17:14                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-19 12:33                                                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 12:40                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-19 12:47                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-19 13:01                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-19 13:16                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-19 13:26                                                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-19 13:37                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-19 14:41                                                           ` Alan Third
2021-04-20 14:21                                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-20 18:27                                                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-20 19:19                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21  1:16                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-21  6:47                                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 13:11                                                                       ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-21 14:05                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 14:12                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-21 14:30                                                                           ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-21 14:35                                                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 14:45                                                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-21 14:53                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 21:27                                                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-21 14:33                                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 14:51                                                                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-21 15:14                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-25 18:12                                                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-25 21:03                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-27  1:07                                                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-27  9:54                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-27 15:15                                                                                   ` bug#1305: [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-27 23:21                                                                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-28 10:08                                                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-28 13:12                                                                                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-29 16:50                                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-29 19:48                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-29 20:17                                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-29 21:46                                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-29 23:23                                                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-29 23:35                                                                                                   ` bug#1305: [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-29 23:52                                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-01  7:50                                                                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-05-01 14:13                                                                                                       ` Drew Adams
2021-05-01 16:55                                                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-05-01 14:28                                                                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-05-01 16:48                                                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-05-02 10:44                                                                                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-30  7:09                                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-30 22:22                                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30 23:19                                                                                                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-30 23:28                                                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-01  0:00                                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-05-01  0:57                                                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-01  7:50                                                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-05-01  0:05                                                                                                           ` bug#1305: [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-05-01  1:08                                                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-05-01  2:05                                                                                                               ` Drew Adams
2021-04-29 23:36                                                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-30  7:13                                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-29 22:38                                                                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-29 23:11                                                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-30  6:58                                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-30 13:08                                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-30  5:05                                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-30  6:51                                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-30  7:06                                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-30  7:27                                                                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-30  8:03                                                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-30  8:41                                                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 15:08                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-21 15:18                                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 16:14                                                                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 17:27                                                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-21 20:26                                                                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 22:03                                                                                 ` bug#1305: [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-21 14:45                                                                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-04-21 16:01                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-21 17:34                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-21 20:22                                                                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-19 12:51                                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 14:03                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-18 15:27                                         ` bug#1305: [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-18  6:30                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-18 11:10                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-04-18 11:38                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-18 15:14                             ` bug#1305: [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-04-17 13:16                     ` Drew Adams
2021-04-17 16:59                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2008-11-10 21:25 ` Xavier Maillard
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2008-11-17  7:32 bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead Tim Connors
2008-11-17  7:37 ` Jason Spiro
2008-11-17  8:01   ` Sven Joachim
2008-11-17 14:52   ` Stefan Monnier

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