From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: "Drew Adams" Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.bugs Subject: bug#1305: All code that currently beeps should use visual bellinstead Date: Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:28:14 -0800 Message-ID: <00ff01c942fd$83132980$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> References: <009901c9421f$5bd0a6b0$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> <00ad01c942a0$1f49ca60$0200a8c0@us.oracle.com> Reply-To: Drew Adams , 1305@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com NNTP-Posting-Host: lo.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Trace: ger.gmane.org 1226299834 26097 80.91.229.12 (10 Nov 2008 06:50:34 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@ger.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:50:34 +0000 (UTC) Cc: jasonspiro4@gmail.com, bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org, 1305@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com To: "'Stefan Monnier'" , "'Eli Zaretskii'" Original-X-From: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Nov 10 07:51:27 2008 Return-path: Envelope-to: geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([199.232.76.165]) by lo.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.50) id 1KzQcP-0001nG-G9 for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 07:51:25 +0100 Original-Received: from localhost ([127.0.0.1]:55792 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KzQbH-0006yA-UL for geb-bug-gnu-emacs@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:50:15 -0500 Original-Received: from mailman by lists.gnu.org with tmda-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KzQbE-0006y5-06 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:50:12 -0500 Original-Received: from exim by lists.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.43) id 1KzQbD-0006xc-AQ for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:50:11 -0500 Original-Received: from [199.232.76.173] (port=58062 helo=monty-python.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.43) id 1KzQbC-0006xM-D9 for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:50:10 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu ([138.23.92.77]:32872) by monty-python.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS-1.0:DHE_RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.60) (envelope-from ) id 1KzQbB-0008FL-Te for bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:50:10 -0500 Original-Received: from rzlab.ucr.edu (rzlab.ucr.edu [127.0.0.1]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAA6o6P4009420; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:50:07 -0800 Original-Received: (from debbugs@localhost) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Submit) id mAA6Z5dI005687; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:35:05 -0800 X-Loop: don@donarmstrong.com Resent-From: "Drew Adams" Resent-To: bug-submit-list@donarmstrong.com Resent-CC: Emacs Bugs Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:35:05 +0000 Resent-Message-ID: Resent-Sender: don@donarmstrong.com X-Emacs-PR-Message: report 1305 X-Emacs-PR-Package: emacs X-Emacs-PR-Keywords: Original-Received: via spool by 1305-submit@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com id=B1305.12262984974296 (code B ref 1305); Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:35:05 +0000 Original-Received: (at 1305) by emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com; 10 Nov 2008 06:28:17 +0000 Original-Received: from acsinet12.oracle.com (acsinet12.oracle.com [141.146.126.234]) by rzlab.ucr.edu (8.13.8/8.13.8/Debian-3) with ESMTP id mAA6SExJ004290 for <1305@emacsbugs.donarmstrong.com>; Sun, 9 Nov 2008 22:28:15 -0800 Original-Received: from rgminet15.oracle.com (rcsinet15.oracle.com [148.87.113.117]) by acsinet12.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAA6Rw23030761 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=OK); Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:27:59 GMT Original-Received: from acsmt702.oracle.com (acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80]) by rgminet15.oracle.com (Switch-3.3.1/Switch-3.3.1) with ESMTP id mAA6S6SJ012689; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:28:08 GMT Original-Received: from dradamslap1 (/24.23.165.218) by default (Oracle Beehive Gateway v4.0) with ESMTP ; Mon, 10 Nov 2008 06:28:02 +0000 X-Mailer: Microsoft Office Outlook 11 In-Reply-To: X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V6.00.2900.3350 Thread-Index: AclC2URrMUmx6wt9S7qLUWqgA9F1wgAIQX8w X-Source-IP: acsmt702.oracle.com [141.146.40.80] X-Auth-Type: Internal IP X-CT-RefId: str=0001.0A090204.4917D475.001D:SCFSTAT928724,ss=1,fgs=0 X-detected-operating-system: by monty-python.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 2.6 (newer, 3) Resent-Date: Mon, 10 Nov 2008 01:50:11 -0500 X-BeenThere: bug-gnu-emacs@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.5 Precedence: list List-Id: "Bug reports for GNU Emacs, the Swiss army knife of text editors" List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Original-Sender: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Errors-To: bug-gnu-emacs-bounces+geb-bug-gnu-emacs=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.bugs:22253 Archived-At: > > No, that's not the intent. The intent is to make the > > visible bell the default. To turn it off, you turn off > > visible-bell, which makes Emacs > > beep again, and then turn off the speakers. > > Indeed. A good reason to use visible-bell by default is that > we have no guarantee that the bell can actually be heard Indeed not. That the bell might not be heard is no reason to use the visible bell. That just doesn't follow. This is not about guaranteeing that the user's attention be drawn. This is not a fire alarm. It is typically just a minor reminder, akin to the "Wrapped" indication in Isearch that lets you know when you've reached the end of the buffer. And a clear message like that is typically better and sufficient. Many, if not most, uses of the bell are probably unnecessary. That's no reason to replace them with a visible bell. Just get rid of the ones that are inappropriate. > (e.g. I usually turn it off because I usually consider that a computer > should be as close to silent as possible, except when I > specifically ask otherwise (.e.g listing to music or whatching a video)). I feel the same and I do the same. However, that is *not* a good reason to use visible-bell by default. I don't want to lose silence with no distraction only to gain silence with visible annoyance by default. That's a bad trade. If this is about the default behavior, and it is generally agreed that such frequent distractions serve little purpose and are annoying, then they will remain so if they are simply moved from sound to sight. That's running in circles around the problem, not fixing it. > The other reason is that the beep can annoy other people than > the user, whereas the visible-bell is very unlikely to annoy other > people than the user herself. As Eli said, just get rid of gratuitous uses of the bell. It's likely that there are plenty. And that will leave the more appropriate uses, if there are any. Someone (Jason?) mentioned the bell when quitting and when an error is raised. Those are very common uses that could no doubt be eliminated. Each error should display a message anyway, and there is no need for a bell when you quit (C-q). Getting rid of even just those occurrences would take care of much of the annoyance. Or if you prefer, leave those occurrences in, but add an option or two: `bell-when-quit-flag' and `bell-when-error-flag' - with default values nil. Perhaps let the values be `bell', `visible-bell', `bell+visible-bell', and nil. Or some such. IOW, if you really must change something, reduce the current use of the bell and visible bell. Please do not simply substitute visible-bell for bell. That is a poor solution to the problem of frequent bell distraction.