New year, new name!

New year, new name!

[Ludovic Courtès]

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Hi, Guix!

As you know, we’ve been having this lengthy discussion about what to
call the Guix-based standalone distro.  RMS and others have argued that
we can’t reasonably call it “the GNU system”, and many people have
proposed alternative names.

Long story short, I’m tempted to refer to the standalone distro as
“Guixotic”.  The name was proposed by RMS; it’s a play on words that
makes fun of criticisms that have depicted the GNU project as
“quixotic”.  And it has the advantage of starting with “Guix”.  (The
other name that I liked is “Geist”, which someone proposed on IRC, but
it lacks those traits.)

As I see it, we would change the baseline on the Guix logo to, say,
“dependable, hackable, liberating”.  And we could have an alternative
logo with “otic” appended¹, and with a different baseline, say, “GNU’s
reference distribution”.  (I count on Nikita or Felipe for this.  ;-))

Thoughts?

Ludo’.

¹ Bonus points to anyone who comes up with a stylized gnuish Quixote.  :-)

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Re: New year, new name!

[Adam Pribyl]

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On Sun, 4 Jan 2015, Ludovic Courtès wrote:

> Hi, Guix!
>
> As you know, we’ve been having this lengthy discussion about what to
> call the Guix-based standalone distro.  RMS and others have argued that
> we can’t reasonably call it “the GNU system”, and many people have
> proposed alternative names.
>
> Long story short, I’m tempted to refer to the standalone distro as
> “Guixotic”.  The name was proposed by RMS; it’s a play on words that
> makes fun of criticisms that have depicted the GNU project as
> “quixotic”.  And it has the advantage of starting with “Guix”.  (The
> other name that I liked is “Geist”, which someone proposed on IRC, but
> it lacks those traits.)

Well well, ok. I think this is good, as it caused a lot of confusion.

> Ludo’.

Adam Pribyl

Re: New year, new name!

[John Darrington]

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I can't see that "Guixotic" is ever going to be a "catchy" name.  It
is too diffucult to pronounce.

How about something like "Gnuix" ?  This would keep the GNU and th Guix
connection, is shorter and much easier to say.


Just my EUR 0,02


J'


On Sun, Jan 04, 2015 at 04:12:15PM +0100, Ludovic Court??s wrote:
     Hi, Guix!
     
     As you know, we???ve been having this lengthy discussion about what to
     call the Guix-based standalone distro.  RMS and others have argued that
     we can???t reasonably call it ???the GNU system???, and many people have
     proposed alternative names.
     
     Long story short, I???m tempted to refer to the standalone distro as
     ???Guixotic???.  The name was proposed by RMS; it???s a play on words that
     makes fun of criticisms that have depicted the GNU project as
     ???quixotic???.  And it has the advantage of starting with ???Guix???.  (The
     other name that I liked is ???Geist???, which someone proposed on IRC, but
     it lacks those traits.)
     
     As I see it, we would change the baseline on the Guix logo to, say,
     ???dependable, hackable, liberating???.  And we could have an alternative
     logo with ???otic??? appended??, and with a different baseline, say, ???GNU???s
     reference distribution???.  (I count on Nikita or Felipe for this.  ;-))
     
     Thoughts?
     
     Ludo???.
     
     ?? Bonus points to anyone who comes up with a stylized gnuish Quixote.  :-)



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Re: New year, new name!

[Felipe López]

On 05/01/15 05:43, John Darrington wrote:
> I can't see that "Guixotic" is ever going to be a "catchy" name.  It
> is too diffucult to pronounce.

I don't like the name either. Personally, I would have tried to find a
name in a neutral language like Ido.

I just tested the name "Guixotic" with three Spanish speakers. One
pronounced it /gwɪkso'tɪk/ and the others /gɪkso'tɪk/ (these people
don't know English, by the way).


> How about something like "Gnuix" ?  This would keep the GNU and th Guix
> connection, is shorter and much easier to say.


I tested this one with the same people. All made a long pause and said,
"Hmm", and then pronounced it pretty much the same /nw'ɪks/. All of them
paused because they didn't know how to pronounce the G.

I still think that calling the Guix distro "GNU" would have been better,
and I don't see how calling it "Guixotic - the reference distribution of
GNU" is any different from calling it "GNU", since saying "the reference
distro" implies the same issues RMS and others saw in calling the distro
"GNU".

Anyways... If "Guixotic" is written in stone, I may give it a try to the
logo.


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

ID Klefo PGP  : 0x8A296B99
Marko fingrala: 7ED8 4963 C881 647C 9DA0 FDE6 881B 91ED 8A29 6B99

Re: New year, new name!

[Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro]

Em Mon, 05 Jan 2015 09:40:48 -0500
Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> escreveu:

> I still think that calling the Guix distro "GNU" would have been
> better, and I don't see how calling it "Guixotic - the reference
> distribution of GNU" is any different from calling it "GNU", since
> saying "the reference distro" implies the same issues RMS and others
> saw in calling the distro "GNU".

I agree.  In fact calling it "GNU's reference distribution" could even
worsen the problems seen by RMS, because of the explicit goal
attributed to the distribution of being used as a canonical template.
To me the purpose of the GNU project is more ethical and symbolic than
technical: to provide the mythical --- entirely free --- GNU system
and not necessarily to make a distribution for technical reference.
IMHO, the GNU project is missing the point.

Needless to say, I'll continue to call it simply "GNU".  I invite
everyone else to do the same.  Given that the GNU+Linux operating
system has gotten the wrong name "Linux" by habit and popularity,
maybe we could make "Guixotic" (or whatever) get the right name "GNU"
by a similar practice.


-- 
 ,= ,-_-. =.  Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro (oitofelix) [0x28D618AF]
((_/)o o(\_)) There is no system but GNU;
 `-'(. .)`-'  GNU Linux-libre is one of its official kernels;
     \_/      All software should be free as in freedom;

[GNU DISCLAIMER] I'm a GNU hacker, but my views don't necessarily
match those of the GNU project.  Hereby I express my own opinion,
style and perception, in good faith, aiming the betterment of GNU.

Re: New year, new name!

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro <oitofelix@gnu.org> writes:

> Em Mon, 05 Jan 2015 09:40:48 -0500
> Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> escreveu:
>
>> I still think that calling the Guix distro "GNU" would have been
>> better, and I don't see how calling it "Guixotic - the reference
>> distribution of GNU" is any different from calling it "GNU", since
>> saying "the reference distro" implies the same issues RMS and others
>> saw in calling the distro "GNU".
>
> I agree.  In fact calling it "GNU's reference distribution" could even
> worsen the problems seen by RMS, because of the explicit goal
> attributed to the distribution of being used as a canonical template.
> To me the purpose of the GNU project is more ethical and symbolic than
> technical: to provide the mythical --- entirely free --- GNU system
> and not necessarily to make a distribution for technical reference.
> IMHO, the GNU project is missing the point.
>
> Needless to say, I'll continue to call it simply "GNU".  I invite
> everyone else to do the same.  Given that the GNU+Linux operating
> system has gotten the wrong name "Linux" by habit and popularity,
> maybe we could make "Guixotic" (or whatever) get the right name "GNU"
> by a similar practice.

When "GNU" refers exactly to that partially intangible system you
describe, which is found not only in concrete distributions but also in
Apple OS X and Android, then we need a separate name to refer to this
concrete distribution.

There seems to be agreement on that this name will be de-emphasized
--used as kind of a technical code name only-- in contrast to all the
"brand" names such as Ubuntu, Debian, Arch, etc..  So we will say that
we use GNU, and that it's Guixotic will be a technical detail.

There's still the danger that, since most GNU/Linux discussion happens
in technically savvy circles, people will most often use this technical
code name, so it will look like a brand name to onlookers of such
discussions.  I think it's our responsibility to be careful about this
danger and clarify as often as needed, but I don't see us getting around
giving *some* concrete name, that isn't "GNU", to the distribution.

Hope this perspective helps. :-)

Taylan

Re: New year, new name!

[Felipe López]

On 06/01/15 09:28, Bruno Félix Rezende Ribeiro wrote:
> Em Mon, 05 Jan 2015 09:40:48 -0500
> Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> escreveu:
> 
>> I still think that calling the Guix distro "GNU" would have been
>> better, and I don't see how calling it "Guixotic - the reference
>> distribution of GNU" is any different from calling it "GNU", since
>> saying "the reference distro" implies the same issues RMS and others
>> saw in calling the distro "GNU".
> 
> I agree.  In fact calling it "GNU's reference distribution" could even
> worsen the problems seen by RMS, because of the explicit goal
> attributed to the distribution of being used as a canonical template.
> To me the purpose of the GNU project is more ethical and symbolic than
> technical: to provide the mythical --- entirely free --- GNU system
> and not necessarily to make a distribution for technical reference.
> IMHO, the GNU project is missing the point.
> 

Yes, I think that most of the GNU people are very technical, so they
tend to think in low-level terms. This, IMHO, makes it more difficult
for the average Jane to know about GNU and its philosophy.


> Needless to say, I'll continue to call it simply "GNU".  I invite
> everyone else to do the same.  Given that the GNU+Linux operating
> system has gotten the wrong name "Linux" by habit and popularity,
> maybe we could make "Guixotic" (or whatever) get the right name "GNU"
> by a similar practice.
> 
> 

I'll do that too when I start distributing and writing about "Guixotic"
where I live.

-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

ID Klefo PGP  : 0x8A296B99
Marko fingrala: 7ED8 4963 C881 647C 9DA0 FDE6 881B 91ED 8A29 6B99

Re: New year, new name!

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes:

> Hi, Guix!
>
> As you know, we’ve been having this lengthy discussion about what to
> call the Guix-based standalone distro.  RMS and others have argued that
> we can’t reasonably call it “the GNU system”, and many people have
> proposed alternative names.
>
> Long story short, I’m tempted to refer to the standalone distro as
> “Guixotic”.  The name was proposed by RMS; it’s a play on words that
> makes fun of criticisms that have depicted the GNU project as
> “quixotic”.  And it has the advantage of starting with “Guix”.  (The
> other name that I liked is “Geist”, which someone proposed on IRC, but
> it lacks those traits.)
>
> As I see it, we would change the baseline on the Guix logo to, say,
> “dependable, hackable, liberating”.  And we could have an alternative
> logo with “otic” appended¹, and with a different baseline, say, “GNU’s
> reference distribution”.  (I count on Nikita or Felipe for this.  ;-))
>
> Thoughts?
>
> Ludo’.
>
> ¹ Bonus points to anyone who comes up with a stylized gnuish Quixote.  :-)

Happy new year! :-)

A while ago I had the idea that we might be able to convince RMS to
sanction Guixotic as *an* (rather than *the*) official distribution of
the GNU system, using a de-emphasized code-name (guixotic it is) to
refer to it in filenames, technical docs, etc. but otherwise have it
listed mainly as "a distribution of the GNU system" on a hypothetical
gnu.org/download page.  (The download link would also be preceded by
said code-name or "model name", but it wouldn't have a logo, page, or
any such branding of its own.)

Might be a bad analogy but: think of it like Opel and Astra perhaps (the
car brand and model), except if Opel had no other model.  Astra has no
logo or fame of its own, and you usually say you have an Opel if people
ask you.

Makes sense?

I think it deserves such special status over projects such as gNewSense
because GuixDistro is much more under GNU's control than any of those
distros that are "GNUified" as an afterthought.

I didn't further bother anyone with that after mentioning it on IRC, but
I still think it might be worth a shot.  The situation with GNU/Linux
distros and how most people think Linux is the main component is pretty
nasty.  If we brand Guixotic as a stand-alone GNU/Linux distro with a
fancy name and logo of its own, on a page of its own, it will become
"yet another Linux distro" in the minds of the masses.  This might be
because they're misinformed, but the fact doesn't change.  Any special
branding we apply to Guixotic will be actively harmful, I think.

Taylan

Re: New year, new name!

[Svetlana Tkachenko]

> I think it deserves such special status over projects such as gNewSense
> because GuixDistro is much more under GNU's control than any of those
> distros that are "GNUified" as an afterthought.

I do not see any way gnu has more control here, other that guix folks are their own downstream. Those who liberate an existing a distro are also free to modify packages or packaging format at discretion, too..

A big part here are oral presentations and pronunciation but
I like the guixotic name. To me it sounds well and it reflects the spirit.

Svetlana.

Re: New year, new name!

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Svetlana Tkachenko <svetlana.tkachenko@fastmail.com> writes:

>> I think it deserves such special status over projects such as gNewSense
>> because GuixDistro is much more under GNU's control than any of those
>> distros that are "GNUified" as an afterthought.
>
> I do not see any way gnu has more control here, other that guix folks
> are their own downstream. Those who liberate an existing a distro are
> also free to modify packages or packaging format at discretion, too..

When modifying another distro, we're somewhat bound to their package
manager, upstream package recipes, choice of init system, etc.

Substantial changes are always possible, but generally unwanted as far
as I can tell.  E.g. if Debian goes with systemd, so will gNewSense.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

In Guixotic, GNU has control over init system, package manager, package
recipes, etc., which is substantially more than the alternatives.

Taylan

Re: New year, new name!

[Ludovic Courtès]

I agree with what you write, that is, we don’t want to do too much
branding around that name, and instead emphasize GNU.  In my view, this
is indeed some sort of a code name for use in technical docs and such.

And then we also need to work to get a clearer “special status” in GNU.

Ludo’.

Re: New year, new name!

[Felipe López]

On 05/01/15 11:15, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
> I agree with what you write, that is, we don’t want to do too much
> branding around that name, and instead emphasize GNU.  In my view, this
> is indeed some sort of a code name for use in technical docs and such.
> 

Ah! I thought you were asking for new branding. I agree with your view,
So I won't design any logo :)


-- 
Luis Felipe López Acevedo
http://sirgazil.bitbucket.org/

ID Klefo PGP  : 0x8A296B99
Marko fingrala: 7ED8 4963 C881 647C 9DA0 FDE6 881B 91ED 8A29 6B99

Re: New year, new name!

[Taylan Ulrich Bayırlı/Kammer]

Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> writes:

> On 05/01/15 11:15, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
>> I agree with what you write, that is, we don’t want to do too much
>> branding around that name, and instead emphasize GNU.  In my view, this
>> is indeed some sort of a code name for use in technical docs and such.

FYI, I did not receive the e-mail from which the above quote by Ludovic
seems to be, though I can see it in the ML archives.  Perhaps the ML
software had a glitch and didn't send it to me.

I'm happy to hear that everyone's in agreement. :-)

Taylan

Re: New year, new name!

[Ludovic Courtès]

taylanbayirli@gmail.com (Taylan Ulrich "Bayırlı/Kammer") skribis:

> Felipe López <felipe.lopez@openmailbox.org> writes:
>
>> On 05/01/15 11:15, Ludovic Courtès wrote:
>>> I agree with what you write, that is, we don’t want to do too much
>>> branding around that name, and instead emphasize GNU.  In my view, this
>>> is indeed some sort of a code name for use in technical docs and such.
>
> FYI, I did not receive the e-mail from which the above quote by Ludovic
> seems to be, though I can see it in the ML archives.  Perhaps the ML
> software had a glitch and didn't send it to me.

Actually GMail has been rejecting my messages for a couple of weeks or
so for reasons have yet to understand.  (And of course you’ll never get
this message.  :-))

Ludo’.

Re: New year, new name!

[Thompson, David]

On Sun, Jan 4, 2015 at 10:12 AM, Ludovic Courtès <ludo@gnu.org> wrote:
> Hi, Guix!
>
> Long story short, I’m tempted to refer to the standalone distro as
> “Guixotic”.  The name was proposed by RMS; it’s a play on words that
> makes fun of criticisms that have depicted the GNU project as
> “quixotic”.  And it has the advantage of starting with “Guix”.  (The
> other name that I liked is “Geist”, which someone proposed on IRC, but
> it lacks those traits.)

I don't like "Guixotic" very much.  It's quite awkward to say and read
for the first time.  On a purely sonic level, I like the way "Geist"
sounds more.

I don't want this discussion to go on forever, and I'll yield to
whichever name is the most popular, but maybe it would be nice to have
two more reasonable names to choose from.  I was perusing words that
start with "G" and saw "Gingko", which is a cool plant native to
China, and "Ganymede", a Greek god and one of Jupiter's moons.  Or how
about we do away with humility, and call it "Glorious"? ;)

That's all I have to share.  Hope I didn't open a can of worms.

- Dave

Re: New year, new name!

[Andreas Enge]

On Mon, Jan 05, 2015 at 10:09:09AM -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
> I don't like "Guixotic" very much.

Me neither; it apparently refers to Don Quixote, who is generally considered
as a ridiculous person disconnected from the preoccupations of its time. The
main episode that comes to mind is that of the windmills; I do not think we
should leave the impression that Guix is fighting a fight that it is bound
to lose, and that moreover is ridiculous from the start.

> On a purely sonic level, I like the way "Geist" sounds more.

"Geist" (which is also unclear how to pronounce, with probably a different
"natural" pronunciation in each European language) is a German word meaning
"spirit" or "mind" in English; it does not seem very suitable for the
GNU distribution.

If there needs to be a separate name, I think we should spend more time
searching for a better one.

Andreas

Re: New year, new name!

[Ludovic Courtès]

Andreas Enge <andreas@enge.fr> skribis:

> On Mon, Jan 05, 2015 at 10:09:09AM -0500, Thompson, David wrote:
>> I don't like "Guixotic" very much.
>
> Me neither; it apparently refers to Don Quixote, who is generally considered
> as a ridiculous person disconnected from the preoccupations of its time. The
> main episode that comes to mind is that of the windmills; I do not think we
> should leave the impression that Guix is fighting a fight that it is bound
> to lose, and that moreover is ridiculous from the start.

The idea of RMS is that GNU is sometimes described by opponents as
quixotic, and that we would make fun of that insult by internalizing it
(pretty much like geeks have done with “geek”.)

BTW, I didn’t know this is a relatively common adjective in English;
WordNet has this definition:

  Overview of adj quixotic

  The adj quixotic has 1 sense (first 1 from tagged texts)

  1. (2) quixotic, romantic, wild-eyed -- (not sensible about practical
  matters; idealistic and unrealistic; "as quixotic as a restoration of
  medieval knighthood"; "a romantic disregard for money"; "a wild-eyed
  dream of a world state")

With that definition in mind, it’s clear IMO that “Guixotic” is ironic.

> If there needs to be a separate name, I think we should spend more time
> searching for a better one.

Honestly, I think the discussion must end, because it’s becoming toxic.

Again, the idea is that it will not change much beyond the name of the
USB installation tarballs and a bunch of references in the manual.  The
goal is to be viewed as “GNU’s reference distro.”

Thanks,
Ludo’.

Re: New year, new name!

[Ludovic Courtès]

Commit 35ed930 introduces “Guixotic” in a few places of the manual.
I’ve also updated the web page.

Thanks for all your feedback!

Ludo’.

New year, new name²

[Ludovic Courtès]

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It is my pleasure to announce the new new name to designate the
standalone distro: the Guix System Distribution, or GNU GSD.

I will update the web page and manual accordingly.

For those who haven’t followed, the discussion is at
<https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2015-01/threads.html>.  
And yes, this was the last discussion on that topic.

Thanks to everyone who contributed!

Ludo’.

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Re: New year, new name²

[Daniel Pimentel]

On 2015-01-22 14:30, ludo@gnu.org wrote:
> It is my pleasure to announce the new new name to designate the
> standalone distro: the Guix System Distribution, or GNU GSD.
> 
> I will update the web page and manual accordingly.
> 
> For those who haven’t followed, the discussion is at
> <https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/gnu-system-discuss/2015-01/threads.html>.
> And yes, this was the last discussion on that topic.
> 
> Thanks to everyone who contributed!
> 
> Ludo’.
Good name :) I like Guixtoxic too.

Good work,
-- 
Daniel Pimentel (d4n1)