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* Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
@ 2020-07-13 21:19 Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-13 21:56 ` Jack Hill
                   ` (4 more replies)
  0 siblings, 5 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-07-13 21:19 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Guile User

Hello Guile Users,

I followed up on that idea I mentioned recently on the mailing list and
started creating an awesome list:

https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile

I'd prefer to render only the org-mode file, as that is what I write and
feel most comfortable in, but I decided that the wrong / incomplete
rendering on notabug would seriously limit accessibility, so I exported
markdown and texinfo from org-mode.

If you know more things, which should be added to the list, please tell
me or create a PR or open an issue or … you get it.

Also links to usage examples would be very welcome.

I would like to keep the list informal and easily extendable. A few
questions though:

  * Do you think license information should be written next to each item
    in the list?
  * Do you think each item should have a short description or not? Or
    perhaps whenever one is readily available?
  * Do you think the rendered readme.md should be handwritten instead of
    exported from org-mode? (Perhaps I should not ask this question …
    the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)

Best regards,
Zelphir

-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-13 21:19 Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-07-13 21:56 ` Jack Hill
  2020-07-13 22:56 ` Aleix Conchillo Flaqué
                   ` (3 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Jack Hill @ 2020-07-13 21:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: Guile User

On Mon, 13 Jul 2020, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:

> Hello Guile Users,
>
> I followed up on that idea I mentioned recently on the mailing list and
> started creating an awesome list:
>
> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile
>
> I'd prefer to render only the org-mode file, as that is what I write and
> feel most comfortable in, but I decided that the wrong / incomplete
> rendering on notabug would seriously limit accessibility, so I exported
> markdown and texinfo from org-mode.
>
> If you know more things, which should be added to the list, please tell
> me or create a PR or open an issue or … you get it.

Thanks for starting this effort.

guile-email, <https://guile-email.systemreboot.net/>, could be added under 
email. It is used extensively by mumi, the software behind 
issues.guix.gnu.org, so is definitely useful for building awesome things.

Perhaps g-golf, <https://www.gnu.org/software/g-golf/>, could be added 
under GUI, but it is less mature currently. What are your feelings on 
adding work-in-progress projects?

Best,
Jack


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-13 21:19 Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-13 21:56 ` Jack Hill
@ 2020-07-13 22:56 ` Aleix Conchillo Flaqué
  2020-07-14 23:26   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-14  9:00 ` Dmitry Alexandrov
                   ` (2 subsequent siblings)
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Aleix Conchillo Flaqué @ 2020-07-13 22:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: Guile User

On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:20 PM Zelphir Kaltstahl <
zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> wrote:

> Hello Guile Users,
>
> I followed up on that idea I mentioned recently on the mailing list and
> started creating an awesome list:
>
> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile
>
> I'd prefer to render only the org-mode file, as that is what I write and
> feel most comfortable in, but I decided that the wrong / incomplete
> rendering on notabug would seriously limit accessibility, so I exported
> markdown and texinfo from org-mode.
>
> If you know more things, which should be added to the list, please tell
> me or create a PR or open an issue or … you get it.
>
> Also links to usage examples would be very welcome.
>
> I would like to keep the list informal and easily extendable. A few
> questions though:
>
>   * Do you think license information should be written next to each item
>     in the list?
>   * Do you think each item should have a short description or not? Or
>     perhaps whenever one is readily available?
>   * Do you think the rendered readme.md should be handwritten instead of
>     exported from org-mode? (Perhaps I should not ask this question …
>     the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)
>
>
This is awesome :-) Zelphir!

- I don't think license should be included. It might change (even though it
usually does not) but if so it would be hard to maintain.
- Maybe that would be good. The list could be actually simplified with just
(with sections as you already have):

[project](url): description.    (using markdown format here)

I would actually remove repository and documentation links and just depend
on the project's URL. I believe it will be easier to maintain (plus
shorter), IMHO.

- Not everyone is used to org-mode. Do you have any specific setup that
generates the markdown file? Or is it vanilla org-mode? If you keep it
simple as I suggested it might be easier to maintain a handwritten version.

Whatever it is, this is great!

Btw, a couple of my own missing:
https://github.com/aconchillo/homebrew-guile
https://github.com/aconchillo/guile-xmlrpc

Best,
Aleix


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-13 21:19 Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-13 21:56 ` Jack Hill
  2020-07-13 22:56 ` Aleix Conchillo Flaqué
@ 2020-07-14  9:00 ` Dmitry Alexandrov
  2020-07-14 21:23   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-14 14:14 ` Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-14 16:37 ` Taylan Kammer
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Alexandrov @ 2020-07-14  9:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: Guile User

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Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> wrote:
> I ‹…› started creating an awesome list
> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile

+1!

However, even if you are not going to apply for inclusion¹ in meta-list <https://awesome.re> and therefore are free from complying with all rules that might come to the mind of a macboy in state of administrative ecstasy²; calling your list ‘an awesome list’ implies a certain format nonetheless.

And that format actually answers two of the there of your questions.

-
¹ In any case, I am not sure, whether they accept lists with the primary repository outside of github.com at all.

² E. g., recently he had broken local clones and invalidated all the pull-request backlog by renaming ‘master’ branch to ‘main’, and now require all the lists to follow his example.


> * Do you think each item should have a short description or not?

Thatʼs the key feature of ‘awesome lists’, number one in the ‘manifesto’ [1]:

| Comment on why something is awesome
|
| Apart from suggesting a particular item on your list, you should also inform your readers why it's on the list and how they will benefit from it.

[1] https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome/blob/main/awesome.md


> * Do you think the rendered readme.md should be handwritten instead of exported from org-mode?

Again, ‘awesome list’ format implies [2] Markdown as a source format.  Nobody says, though, that a source is something handtyped.

[2] https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome/blob/main/pull_request_template.md

> (Perhaps I should not ask this question …  the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)

???  The only thing where org-mode saves typing over markdown-mode is ToC generation.  But there are lots ToC helpers for Markdown!  (describe-package 'markdown-toc), for instance.

In the case you will stick with Org, there at least should be a runnable build recipe (i. e. a Makefile).


> * Do you think license information should be written next to each item in the list?

First at foremost, the list _itself_ has to be licensed as a free documentation.  FWIW, most of ‘awesome lists’ are under CC0.


> * Do you think license information should be written next to each item in the list?

Anyway, imho, yes, it should.  This is an information with the highest usefulness/length ratio.  Perhaps, only maintained-or-abandoned bit could contend for it.

Actually, you might eventually find out useful to list something, because it has not a technical, but exactly a licensing advantage to another item.

For instance, the above-mentioned GNU G-Golf have a advantage over Guile GI as it does not follow a bad licensing practice of distributing a glue between a library under license A and a language under license B under terms of the third license C.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-13 21:19 Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Zelphir Kaltstahl
                   ` (2 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-14  9:00 ` Dmitry Alexandrov
@ 2020-07-14 14:14 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-15 21:24   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-14 16:37 ` Taylan Kammer
  4 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-14 14:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: guile-user

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Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:

> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile
>
> If you know more things, which should be added to the list, please tell
> me or create a PR or open an issue or … you get it.

Would enter-three-witches apply? Write executable game-stories like
theater plays, as used in dryads-wake:
https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake

Example: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake/browse/dryads-wake.w?rev=c677727bbd2c#L1129

>   * Do you think the rendered readme.md should be handwritten instead of
>     exported from org-mode? (Perhaps I should not ask this question …
>     the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)

I prefer org-mode, a lot. And it is easy to write with other tools. Also
it can export to beautiful LaTeX and allows embedding tweaks for that.

Liebe Grüße,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-13 21:19 Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Zelphir Kaltstahl
                   ` (3 preceding siblings ...)
  2020-07-14 14:14 ` Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-14 16:37 ` Taylan Kammer
  4 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Taylan Kammer @ 2020-07-14 16:37 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl, Guile User

On 13.07.2020 23:19, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
> Hello Guile Users,
> 
> I followed up on that idea I mentioned recently on the mailing list and
> started creating an awesome list:
> 
> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile


Cool!

Let me mention my following projects.  They're in maintenance mode, but
still.


scheme-bytestructures:

https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-bytestructures


scheme-srfis

https://github.com/TaylanUB/scheme-srfis/tree/master/srfi

(This contains some SRFIs which aren't implemented in Guile itself, but
since Guile now supports R7RS, you can use these.)

While these are mostly just wrappers for reference implementations, the
SRFI-64 implementation in the repo is IMO superior to the standard one
used by Guile.


- Taylan



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-14  9:00 ` Dmitry Alexandrov
@ 2020-07-14 21:23   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-15  6:32     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-15  6:36     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-07-14 21:23 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dmitry Alexandrov; +Cc: Guile User

Hi Dmitry!


On 7/14/20 11:00 AM, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> wrote:
>> I ‹…› started creating an awesome list
>> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile
> +1!
>
> However, even if you are not going to apply for inclusion¹ in meta-list <https://awesome.re> and therefore are free from complying with all rules that might come to the mind of a macboy in state of administrative ecstasy²; calling your list ‘an awesome list’ implies a certain format nonetheless.
>
> And that format actually answers two of the there of your questions.

Thanks for informing and mentioning those things! I did not even know.


> -
> ¹ In any case, I am not sure, whether they accept lists with the primary repository outside of github.com at all.

I'm surely not going to create any repositories on GitHub in the near
future, unless somehow MS becomes the new saint of the free software
movement ; )


> ² E. g., recently he had broken local clones and invalidated all the pull-request backlog by renaming ‘master’ branch to ‘main’, and now require all the lists to follow his example.

Ha, the whole thing about renaming master branch sounds so silly to me,
I'd never do that. Perhaps that person got too much time or something.

I wonder, can people even still get a "master degree" or write a "master
thesis"? Can I still write my master degree on my CV or is it now shameful?


>> * Do you think each item should have a short description or not?
> Thatʼs the key feature of ‘awesome lists’, number one in the ‘manifesto’ [1]:
>
> | Comment on why something is awesome
> |
> | Apart from suggesting a particular item on your list, you should also inform your readers why it's on the list and how they will benefit from it.
>
> [1] https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome/blob/main/awesome.md

OK, it can be useful. I'll see, when and if I can get around to writing
the descriptions.

The thing is: For some modules / packages / libraries I don't even know
how to describe them correctly and would need the authors' help or quote
their texts. It would be nice, if people sharing adding Guile things to
the list gave short descriptions, if able to do so.


>> * Do you think the rendered readme.md should be handwritten instead of exported from org-mode?
> Again, ‘awesome list’ format implies [2] Markdown as a source format.  Nobody says, though, that a source is something handtyped.
>
> [2] https://github.com/sindresorhus/awesome/blob/main/pull_request_template.md

To me this awesome list thing seemed like an Internet software
development phenomenon, which would be nice to carry into the Guile
world, in order to increase discoverability. That's how I have
experienced it so far. I've never even heard of https://awesome.re. I
should have looked it up / researched it more, beforehand. Didn't think
there was anything more to it, than creating a list inside a repository.

I think their rules are theirs and we can do as we wish. I don't think
anyone can claim the word "awesome" as a prefix for themselves and
impose rules on how anything has to be, when having the prefix. However,
I'd consider using another word instead (Why not do our own thing?), if
it is consensus (What do people think about renaming the list?), that
the name should be changed due to the list at https://awesome.re
existing and the author of that trying to impose stuff. Possibly this
comes at the cost of a little bit of discoverability. There is still
"ingenious guile" :D


>> (Perhaps I should not ask this question …  the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)
> ???  The only thing where org-mode saves typing over markdown-mode is ToC generation.  But there are lots ToC helpers for Markdown!  (describe-package 'markdown-toc), for instance.
>
> In the case you will stick with Org, there at least should be a runnable build recipe (i. e. a Makefile).

I'm sorry, you are (understandably) misunderstanding me here. I was not
very clear.

I've been hinting at RSI, which I need to look out for, not at any
advantage in number of characters or key presses to type in Markdown vs
Org-mode : ) I am not even sure which one would require less typing,
considering the comfort Emacs offers for org-mode.

In Emacs one can easily export to Markdown from Org-mode or to many
other formats. The table of contents is already generated by org-mode
export. I am not sure, whether one can use Emacs functionality from
outside of Emacs. I remember there being a library about Emacs stuff,
possibly written in Guile. Forgot the name though. It was I think also
shared on this mailing list at least once. (I should probably find it
again and put it on the list!)

What I will not do is discarding the org-mode file, as it is a much
saner markup language and allows for many more output formats. One can
write whole scientific books in org-mode, which is impossible in
original Markdown (probably only possible in PandocMarkdown) and yet the
syntax remains very intuitive (for example for check lists / todo
lists!) and simple.

The question is, whether it is worth it typing the markdown file by hand
instead of exporting from org, because of how the converted file is
converted and then how rendered at the git host's web interface, with
Roman numbers on second level of the lists. The style of headings also
does not distinguish the levels of the headings very well. The font
sizes are too similar. I wish it would render org files properly, in
their full glory.


>> * Do you think license information should be written next to each item in the list?
> First at foremost, the list _itself_ has to be licensed as a free documentation.  FWIW, most of ‘awesome lists’ are under CC0.

While the list is not CC0, I meant to put it under "GNU Free
Documentation License v1.3", which I think should be appropriate (Is it
not?) and free as in freedom. Good that you hint at the license, because
I thought it had a license already.

It seems I did not check the checkbox for notabug to insert that license
file or I forgot in excitement of creating the list.

I'll add that license as the next step.


>> * Do you think license information should be written next to each item in the list?
> Anyway, imho, yes, it should.  This is an information with the highest usefulness/length ratio.  Perhaps, only maintained-or-abandoned bit could contend for it.
>
> Actually, you might eventually find out useful to list something, because it has not a technical, but exactly a licensing advantage to another item.
>
> For instance, the above-mentioned GNU G-Golf have a advantage over Guile GI as it does not follow a bad licensing practice of distributing a glue between a library under license A and a language under license B under terms of the third license C.

OK I will consider those points. Thanks!

Best regards,
Zelphir




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-13 22:56 ` Aleix Conchillo Flaqué
@ 2020-07-14 23:26   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-07-14 23:26 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Aleix Conchillo Flaqué; +Cc: Guile User

Hi Aleix!

On 14.07.20 00:56, Aleix Conchillo Flaqué wrote:
>
>
> On Mon, Jul 13, 2020 at 2:20 PM Zelphir Kaltstahl
> <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de <mailto:zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de>> wrote:
>
>     Hello Guile Users,
>
>     I followed up on that idea I mentioned recently on the mailing
>     list and
>     started creating an awesome list:
>
>     https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile
>
>     I'd prefer to render only the org-mode file, as that is what I
>     write and
>     feel most comfortable in, but I decided that the wrong / incomplete
>     rendering on notabug would seriously limit accessibility, so I
>     exported
>     markdown and texinfo from org-mode.
>
>     If you know more things, which should be added to the list, please
>     tell
>     me or create a PR or open an issue or … you get it.
>
>     Also links to usage examples would be very welcome.
>
>     I would like to keep the list informal and easily extendable. A few
>     questions though:
>
>       * Do you think license information should be written next to
>     each item
>         in the list?
>       * Do you think each item should have a short description or not? Or
>         perhaps whenever one is readily available?
>       * Do you think the rendered readme.md should be handwritten
>     instead of
>         exported from org-mode? (Perhaps I should not ask this question …
>         the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)
>
>
> This is awesome :-) Zelphir!
>
> - I don't think license should be included. It might change (even
> though it usually does not) but if so it would be hard to maintain.
> - Maybe that would be good. The list could be actually simplified with
> just (with sections as you already have):
>
> [project](url): description.    (using markdown format here)
>
> I would actually remove repository and documentation links and just
> depend on the project's URL. I believe it will be easier to maintain
> (plus shorter), IMHO.
>
> - Not everyone is used to org-mode. Do you have any specific setup
> that generates the markdown file? Or is it vanilla org-mode? If you
> keep it simple as I suggested it might be easier to maintain a
> handwritten version.
>
> Whatever it is, this is great!
>
> Btw, a couple of my own missing: 
> https://github.com/aconchillo/homebrew-guile
> https://github.com/aconchillo/guile-xmlrpc
>
> Best,
> Aleix

I don't have a special setup currently, only exporting straight out of
org-mode.

Thank you for your input!

Regards,
Zelphir

-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-14 21:23   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-07-15  6:32     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-16  8:47       ` Dmitry Alexandrov
  2020-07-15  6:36     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-15  6:32 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: Dmitry Alexandrov, guile-user

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Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:

>>> (Perhaps I should not ask this question …  the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)
>> ???  The only thing where org-mode saves typing over markdown-mode is ToC generation.  But there are lots ToC helpers for Markdown!  (describe-package 'markdown-toc), for instance.
>>
>> In the case you will stick with Org, there at least should be a runnable build recipe (i. e. a Makefile).

I’d like to cut this discussion short:

https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile/pulls/1/files

Org-mode can export to almost everything. This adds a recipe to do so
with

    make

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-14 21:23   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-15  6:32     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-15  6:36     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-15 21:14       ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-15  6:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: Dmitry Alexandrov, guile-user

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Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:

> One can write whole scientific books in org-mode

Or roleplaying books, which actually have higher requirements :-)
(I did both)

>>> * Do you think license information should be written next to each item in the list?
>> First at foremost, the list _itself_ has to be licensed as a free documentation.  FWIW, most of ‘awesome lists’ are under CC0.
>
> While the list is not CC0, I meant to put it under "GNU Free
> Documentation License v1.3", which I think should be appropriate (Is it
> not?) and free as in freedom. Good that you hint at the license, because
> I thought it had a license already.

GFDL isn’t considered as free by the debian standards, because it can
have invariant sections. CC by-sa might be a good fit, since it is
compatible with GPLv3 and wikipedia at the same time.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-15  6:36     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-15 21:14       ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-15 22:40         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-16  9:18         ` A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list) Dmitry Alexandrov
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-07-15 21:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-user, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide

Hi Arne,

On 15.07.20 08:36, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
>
>> One can write whole scientific books in org-mode
> Or roleplaying books, which actually have higher requirements :-)
> (I did both)
>
>>>> * Do you think license information should be written next to each item in the list?
>>> First at foremost, the list _itself_ has to be licensed as a free documentation.  FWIW, most of ‘awesome lists’ are under CC0.
>> While the list is not CC0, I meant to put it under "GNU Free
>> Documentation License v1.3", which I think should be appropriate (Is it
>> not?) and free as in freedom. Good that you hint at the license, because
>> I thought it had a license already.
> GFDL isn’t considered as free by the debian standards, because it can
> have invariant sections. CC by-sa might be a good fit, since it is
> compatible with GPLv3 and wikipedia at the same time.
>
> Best wishes,
> Arne

Thanks for providing more info on the licenses.

I just read multiple articles about GFDL and CC0 and still don't know
what the better choice is for the list.

In particular I do not find information about whether CC0 is copyleft or
not (1), which perhaps means, that it is not and I do not understand the
impact of invariant sections on the list (2).

Can you help me out?

Best regards,
Zelphir

-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl





^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-14 14:14 ` Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-15 21:24   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-15 22:29     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-07-15 21:24 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide; +Cc: guile-user

Hi Arne!

On 14.07.20 16:14, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
>
>> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile
>>
>> If you know more things, which should be added to the list, please tell
>> me or create a PR or open an issue or … you get it.
> Would enter-three-witches apply? Write executable game-stories like
> theater plays, as used in dryads-wake:
> https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake
>
> Example: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake/browse/dryads-wake.w?rev=c677727bbd2c#L1129

I will add dryad-awake under "Games".

Do you have some repository link for "enter-three-witches"?

>>   * Do you think the rendered readme.md should be handwritten instead of
>>     exported from org-mode? (Perhaps I should not ask this question …
>>     the amount of markdown typing … my fingers hurt.)
> I prefer org-mode, a lot. And it is easy to write with other tools. Also
> it can export to beautiful LaTeX and allows embedding tweaks for that.
>
> Liebe Grüße,
> Arne

Regards,
Zelphir

-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-15 21:24   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-07-15 22:29     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-15 22:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: guile-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1036 bytes --]

Hi Zelphir,

Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:

> On 14.07.20 16:14, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
>> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
>>> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile
>>>
>>> If you know more things, which should be added to the list, please tell
>>> me or create a PR or open an issue or … you get it.
>> Would enter-three-witches apply? Write executable game-stories like
>> theater plays, as used in dryads-wake:
>> https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake
>>
>> Example: https://hg.sr.ht/~arnebab/dryads-wake/browse/dryads-wake.w?rev=c677727bbd2c#L1129
>
> I will add dryad-awake under "Games".
>
> Do you have some repository link for "enter-three-witches"?

enter-three-witches is currently part of dryads-wake, because the
previous version (in the wisp examples) started to fall behind what’s
used in dryads wake. Basically I improve what I use …

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-15 21:14       ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-07-15 22:40         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-16  9:18         ` A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list) Dmitry Alexandrov
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-15 22:40 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: guile-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 834 bytes --]

Hi Zelphir,

Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
> I just read multiple articles about GFDL and CC0 and still don't know
> what the better choice is for the list.
>
> In particular I do not find information about whether CC0 is copyleft or
> not (1), which perhaps means, that it is not and I do not understand the
> impact of invariant sections on the list (2).

CC0 is definitely not copyleft. It says "this is up for grabs".

Invariant sections mean that someone can limit re-use by requiring you
to keep parts that do not match the format of what you want to build.

If someone were to subsample the awesome-lists into a comparison post,
all the invariant sections of all sources would have to be retained.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-15  6:32     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-16  8:47       ` Dmitry Alexandrov
  2020-07-16 19:01         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-10-10 12:31         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  0 siblings, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Alexandrov @ 2020-07-16  8:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide; +Cc: guile-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1180 bytes --]

"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de> wrote:
>>> In the case you will stick with Org, there at least should be a runnable build recipe (i. e. a Makefile).
>
> I’d like to cut this discussion short:
>
> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile/pulls/1/files

> 	all: readme.md readme.texi readme.html
> 	.INTERMEDIATE: .exported
> 	readme.md readme.texi readme.html: .exported
> 	.exported: readme.org
> 		HOME=$$(dirname $$(realpath "$<")) emacs -Q --batch "$<" --exec "(require 'ox-md)" -f org-md-export-to-markdown -f org-html-export-to-html -f org-texinfo-export-to-texinfo -f kill-emacs

Alternatively, without reliance on implicit behaviour (setting HOME in order to get an expected filename??):

	#!/usr/bin/make -f
	
	SHELL := emacs
	.SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
	
	orgs := $(wildcard *.org)
	objs := $(orgs:.org=.md) $(orgs:.org=.texi)
	
	.PHONY: all
	all: $(objs)
	
	.ONESHELL:
	%.md %.texi: %.org
		(with-temp-buffer
		  (require 'ox-md)
		  (require 'ox-texinfo)
		  (when (insert-file-contents "$<")
		    (org-mode)
		    (org-export-to-file 'md "$*.md")
		    (org-export-to-file 'texinfo "$*.texi")))

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-15 21:14       ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-15 22:40         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-16  9:18         ` Dmitry Alexandrov
  2020-07-16 18:56           ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-16 20:47           ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dmitry Alexandrov @ 2020-07-16  9:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: guile-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2110 bytes --]

Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> wrote:
> On 15.07.20 08:36, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
>> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
>>>> First at foremost, the list _itself_ has to be licensed as a free documentation.  FWIW, most of ‘awesome lists’ are under CC0.
>>> While the list is not CC0, I meant to put it under "GNU Free Documentation License v1.3", which I think should be appropriate (Is it not?) and free as in freedom. Good that you hint at the license, because I thought it had a license already.
>> GFDL isn’t considered as free by the debian standards, because it can have invariant sections. CC by-sa might be a good fit, since it is compatible with GPLv3 and wikipedia at the same time.
>
> I just read multiple articles about GFDL and CC0 and still don't know what the better choice is for the list.

Sometimes itʼs better to read a text itself than multiple texts about text. ;-)  As least FSF have always tried to keep their licences in English, not legalese.

Doing it, you would find out right away, than GNU FDL is a licence for “manuals, textbooks, or other functional and useful documents”; and most of it is about things like ‘Front Cover’, ‘Back Cover’, ‘Title Page’, ‘Dedications’, ‘Endorsements’, etc, and what one have to do when printing 101+ copies.

What is not written in it, though, is the fact itʼs _not_ compatible with any version of GNU GPL.

> In particular I do not find information about whether CC0 is copyleft or not (1)

Quoth <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CC0> (emphasis mine):
| A work released under CC0 is dedicated to the public domain to the fullest extent permitted by law. If that is not possible for any reason, CC0 also provides a *lax, permissive* license as a fallback. Both public domain works and the lax license provided by CC0 are compatible with the GNU GPL.
|
| If you want to release your non-software work to the public domain, we recommend you use CC0.

Besides being GPL-compatible, itʼs FDL-compatible as well, while CC BY-SA is not.

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-16  9:18         ` A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list) Dmitry Alexandrov
@ 2020-07-16 18:56           ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-16 18:58             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-07-16 20:47           ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-16 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dmitry Alexandrov; +Cc: guile-user

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Dmitry Alexandrov <dag@gnui.org> writes:

> Quoth <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CC0> (emphasis mine):
> | A work released under CC0 is dedicated to the public domain to the fullest extent permitted by law. If that is not possible for any reason, CC0 also provides a *lax, permissive* license as a fallback. Both public domain works and the lax license provided by CC0 are compatible with the GNU GPL.
> |
> | If you want to release your non-software work to the public domain, we recommend you use CC0.
>
> Besides being GPL-compatible, itʼs FDL-compatible as well, while CC BY-SA is not.

That information is outdated. Since 2015 cc BY-SA is one-way compatible
to GPLv3: https://www.draketo.de/english/free-software/by-sa-gpl

Back then I invested a lot of time to make that happen, because I
required it to be able to use art from Battle for Wesnoth, Ryzom, and
Wikipedia in one roleplaying book.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-16 18:56           ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-16 18:58             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-16 18:58 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dmitry Alexandrov; +Cc: guile-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1208 bytes --]


Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide <arne_bab@web.de> writes:

> Dmitry Alexandrov <dag@gnui.org> writes:
>
>> Quoth <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CC0> (emphasis mine):
>> | A work released under CC0 is dedicated to the public domain to the fullest extent permitted by law. If that is not possible for any reason, CC0 also provides a *lax, permissive* license as a fallback. Both public domain works and the lax license provided by CC0 are compatible with the GNU GPL.
>> |
>> | If you want to release your non-software work to the public domain, we recommend you use CC0.
>>
>> Besides being GPL-compatible, itʼs FDL-compatible as well, while CC BY-SA is not.
>
> That information is outdated. Since 2015 cc BY-SA is one-way compatible
> to GPLv3: https://www.draketo.de/english/free-software/by-sa-gpl
>
> Back then I invested a lot of time to make that happen, because I
> required it to be able to use art from Battle for Wesnoth, Ryzom, and
> Wikipedia in one roleplaying book.

arg, I misunderstood you. CC by-sa is GPL-compatible, but not FDL
compatible.

But CC0 is not copyleft.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-16  8:47       ` Dmitry Alexandrov
@ 2020-07-16 19:01         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  2020-10-10 12:31         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  1 sibling, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-16 19:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dmitry Alexandrov; +Cc: guile-user

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1574 bytes --]


Dmitry Alexandrov <dag@gnui.org> writes:

> "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de> wrote:
>>>> In the case you will stick with Org, there at least should be a runnable build recipe (i. e. a Makefile).
>>
>> I’d like to cut this discussion short:
>>
>> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile/pulls/1/files
>
>> 	all: readme.md readme.texi readme.html
>> 	.INTERMEDIATE: .exported
>> 	readme.md readme.texi readme.html: .exported
>> 	.exported: readme.org
>> 		HOME=$$(dirname $$(realpath "$<")) emacs -Q --batch "$<" --exec "(require 'ox-md)" -f org-md-export-to-markdown -f org-html-export-to-html -f org-texinfo-export-to-texinfo -f kill-emacs
>
> Alternatively, without reliance on implicit behaviour (setting HOME in order to get an expected filename??):

No, I actually set home, because I‘m used to having a custom emacs setup
there. With the -Q you can leave it out.

> 	#!/usr/bin/make -f
> 	
> 	SHELL := emacs
> 	.SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
> 	
> 	orgs := $(wildcard *.org)
> 	objs := $(orgs:.org=.md) $(orgs:.org=.texi)
> 	
> 	.PHONY: all
> 	all: $(objs)
> 	
> 	.ONESHELL:
> 	%.md %.texi: %.org
> 		(with-temp-buffer
> 		  (require 'ox-md)
> 		  (require 'ox-texinfo)
> 		  (when (insert-file-contents "$<")
> 		    (org-mode)
> 		    (org-export-to-file 'md "$*.md")
> 		    (org-export-to-file 'texinfo "$*.texi")))

Wow, using emacs as shell is quite a trick to get full elisp in
makefiles. Nice!

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-16  9:18         ` A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list) Dmitry Alexandrov
  2020-07-16 18:56           ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-07-16 20:47           ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-16 22:55             ` Vladimir Zhbanov
  2020-07-17  0:20             ` John Cowan
  1 sibling, 2 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-07-16 20:47 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dmitry Alexandrov; +Cc: guile-user

Hi Dmitry!

On 16.07.20 11:18, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> wrote:
>> On 15.07.20 08:36, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
>>> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
>>>>> First at foremost, the list _itself_ has to be licensed as a free documentation.  FWIW, most of ‘awesome lists’ are under CC0.
>>>> While the list is not CC0, I meant to put it under "GNU Free Documentation License v1.3", which I think should be appropriate (Is it not?) and free as in freedom. Good that you hint at the license, because I thought it had a license already.
>>> GFDL isn’t considered as free by the debian standards, because it can have invariant sections. CC by-sa might be a good fit, since it is compatible with GPLv3 and wikipedia at the same time.
>> I just read multiple articles about GFDL and CC0 and still don't know what the better choice is for the list.
> Sometimes itʼs better to read a text itself than multiple texts about text. ;-)  As least FSF have always tried to keep their licences in English, not legalese.
>
> Doing it, you would find out right away, than GNU FDL is a licence for “manuals, textbooks, or other functional and useful documents”; and most of it is about things like ‘Front Cover’, ‘Back Cover’, ‘Title Page’, ‘Dedications’, ‘Endorsements’, etc, and what one have to do when printing 101+ copies.
>
> What is not written in it, though, is the fact itʼs _not_ compatible with any version of GNU GPL.
>
>> In particular I do not find information about whether CC0 is copyleft or not (1)
> Quoth <https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CC0> (emphasis mine):
> | A work released under CC0 is dedicated to the public domain to the fullest extent permitted by law. If that is not possible for any reason, CC0 also provides a *lax, permissive* license as a fallback. Both public domain works and the lax license provided by CC0 are compatible with the GNU GPL.
> |
> | If you want to release your non-software work to the public domain, we recommend you use CC0.
>
> Besides being GPL-compatible, itʼs FDL-compatible as well, while CC BY-SA is not.

I read on https://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#CC0 about the 2
licenses, but not the original text, assuming, that they are multiple
hour reads for the purpose of understanding them.

Specifically about GFDL it says:

"We also recommend the GNU FDL for dictionaries, encyclopedias, and any
other works that provide information for practical use."

That /"[…] any other works that provide information for practical use."/
seems like a perfect fit for a list of links meant to help people find
stuff.

But then in the text about CC0 it says:

/"If you want to release your non-software work to the public domain, we
recommend you use CC0."/

OK, again seems like a perfect fit. It is not software work, only a list
of links to software. So with that knowledge both GFDL and CC0 seem to
be recommended. CC0 does not have copyleft character, which is why I
currently think GFDL might be better. But then again it has been
expressed in responses, that it is not compatible with GPL and CC0 has
been brought up.

Perhaps I am misinterpreting the mentioning of CC0 as a preference here?

What is the impact or are the consequences of incompatibility with GPL,
with regard to the list of links?

I also read a lot on
https://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001.en.html#amendmenttexta.
Somehow invariant sections seem to not apply in the case of the awesome
list project, except perhaps for the pretext?

It also says there:

/"[…] GFDL allows everybody who disagrees with a personal position
expressed in an invariant section to add their own secondary section and
to describe their objections or additions. This is a reasonable method
to improve the available secondary sections, a method that does not lead
to misrepresenting the authors opinion or to censorship."/

That sounds like a good idea to me.

I guess what I would like most would be CC0 with copyleft or GFDL
without any problems from invariant sections or problems stemming from
incompatibility with GNU GPL.

On the same page it also says:

/"For this reason, we encourage documentation authors to license their
works (or dual-license, together with the GFDL) under the same terms as
the software they refer to, or any of the traditional free software
licenses like the GPL or the BSD license."/

But I thought GPL is only meant to be used for software? Think I read
that many times in the past, that you should not use GPL for things
other than software.

Or is it simply GPL that fit the bill of what I am looking for?

Ultimately I also want to choose something the community agrees with,
since I would like it to be a resource from and for the community.

Regards,
Zelphir

-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-16 20:47           ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-07-16 22:55             ` Vladimir Zhbanov
  2020-07-16 23:05               ` Vladimir Zhbanov
  2020-07-17  0:20             ` John Cowan
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Vladimir Zhbanov @ 2020-07-16 22:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-user

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 10:47:21PM +0200, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
> Hi Dmitry!
> 
> On 16.07.20 11:18, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> > Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> wrote:
> >> On 15.07.20 08:36, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
> >>> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
> >>>>> First at foremost, the list _itself_ has to be licensed as a free documentation.  FWIW, most of ‘awesome lists’ are under CC0.
> >>>> While the list is not CC0, I meant to put it under "GNU Free Documentation License v1.3", which I think should be appropriate (Is it not?) and free as in freedom. Good that you hint at the license, because I thought it had a license already.
> >>> GFDL isn’t considered as free by the debian standards, because it can have invariant sections...

It is, if you explicitly prohibit invariant section, as in *Guile
Reference Manual*:

<quote>
   Permission is granted to copy, distribute and/or modify this document
under the terms of the GNU Free Documentation License, Version 1.3 or
any later version published by the Free Software Foundation; *with no
Invariant Sections, no Front-Cover Texts, and no Back-Cover Texts*.  A
copy of the license is included in the section entitled “GNU Free
Documentation License.”
</quote>

So, if you ensure this "no Invariant Sections" stanza is in place,
anything is free and OK for Debian.

...

> What is the impact or are the consequences of incompatibility with GPL,
> with regard to the list of links?

...

> I guess what I would like most would be CC0 with copyleft or GFDL
> without any problems from invariant sections or problems stemming from
> incompatibility with GNU GPL.
> 
> On the same page it also says:
> 
> /"For this reason, we encourage documentation authors to license their
> works (or dual-license, together with the GFDL) under the same terms as
> the software they refer to, or any of the traditional free software
> licenses like the GPL or the BSD license."/
> 
> But I thought GPL is only meant to be used for software? Think I read
> that many times in the past, that you should not use GPL for things
> other than software.
> 
> Or is it simply GPL that fit the bill of what I am looking for?

I suspect it is all about including chunks of your GPL'd code as
examples into your other licenced docs. And vice versa, e.g. if
you generate some parts of your docs from code comments.  If the
licence of the docs is GPL-compatible, then no issues at all.

-- 
  Vladimir

(λ)επτόν EDA — https://github.com/lepton-eda



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-16 22:55             ` Vladimir Zhbanov
@ 2020-07-16 23:05               ` Vladimir Zhbanov
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Vladimir Zhbanov @ 2020-07-16 23:05 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-user

On Fri, Jul 17, 2020 at 01:55:18AM +0300, Vladimir Zhbanov wrote:
...
> I suspect it is all about including chunks of your GPL'd code as
> examples into your other licenced docs. And vice versa, e.g. if

I've meant *otherwise licenced*, sorry for mistake.

-- 
  Vladimir

(λ)επτόν EDA — https://github.com/lepton-eda



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-16 20:47           ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-07-16 22:55             ` Vladimir Zhbanov
@ 2020-07-17  0:20             ` John Cowan
  2020-07-17  6:43               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: John Cowan @ 2020-07-17  0:20 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: Dmitry Alexandrov, guile-user

On Thu, Jul 16, 2020 at 4:47 PM Zelphir Kaltstahl <
zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> wrote:

"We also recommend the GNU FDL for dictionaries, encyclopedias, and any
> other works that provide information for practical use."
>

These are works with substantial original content, and the GFDL prevents
people from creating proprietary versions of them.  But as I said before, a
list of links is most likely insufficiently original, so it cannot be
copyrighted in any common-law jurisdiction.  For avoidance of doubt,
however, a CC0-type license is best.

I am not a lawyer; this is not legal advice, but it is not the unauthorized
practice of law either.

What is the impact or are the consequences of incompatibility with GPL,
> with regard to the list of links?
>

 I don't see any.  A list of links is unlikely to be included in the source
code of a software work.


> But I thought GPL is only meant to be used for software? Think I read
> that many times in the past, that you should not use GPL for things
> other than software.
>

Certainly a GPLed presentation or essay that is unlikely to be printed is
no problem.  Most of my presentation slides are GPLed.  But being required
to distribute the editable source for a specific copy of a printed book
along with the book (or a written offer to provide it on demand) is a
nuisance.



John Cowan          http://vrici.lojban.org/~cowan        cowan@ccil.org
I don't know half of you half as well as I should like, and I like less
than half of you half as well as you deserve.  --Bilbo


^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list)
  2020-07-17  0:20             ` John Cowan
@ 2020-07-17  6:43               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide @ 2020-07-17  6:43 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: John Cowan; +Cc: guile-user, Dmitry Alexandrov

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1833 bytes --]


John Cowan <cowan@ccil.org> writes:

>  I don't see any.  A list of links is unlikely to be included in the source
> code of a software work.

As soon as you put it into the help section of for example a Guile
Studio, displayed with a help-command and referenced back to some degree
(so that it's not just side-by-side distribution), it is included.

>> But I thought GPL is only meant to be used for software? Think I read
>> that many times in the past, that you should not use GPL for things
>> other than software.
>>
>
> Certainly a GPLed presentation or essay that is unlikely to be printed is
> no problem.  Most of my presentation slides are GPLed.  But being required
> to distribute the editable source for a specific copy of a printed book
> along with the book (or a written offer to provide it on demand) is a
> nuisance.

The source-code requirement isn‘t that big of a problem; I‘m publishing
roleplaying books under GPL and I just upload the code in version
tracking system. The real annoyance is having to include the GPL license
text. That doesn‘t hurt for Software, but for a printed book that eats
several pages I’d prefer using for something else.

If you want copyleft, easy publishing, and GPL compatibility, then the
only option I know is cc by-sa — which has the additional benefit of
being the license of Wikipedia, so you can use content of articles there
or contribute your text to Wikipedia.

The only downside of cc by-sa is that it is compatible to exactly GPLv3.
Creativecommons is the license steward (so they can declare that CC
by-sa becomes compatible to a GPLv4), so this is less of a problem as if
you'd explicitly choose GPLv3 only, but it's still a downside.

Best wishes,
Arne
-- 
Unpolitisch sein
heißt politisch sein
ohne es zu merken

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
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^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-07-16  8:47       ` Dmitry Alexandrov
  2020-07-16 19:01         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
@ 2020-10-10 12:31         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-10-10 13:14           ` Matt Wette
  1 sibling, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-10-10 12:31 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Dmitry Alexandrov, Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide; +Cc: guile-user

Hello Dmitry!

I know this is kind of a late reply. I hope you do not mind me
unearthing this. : )

On 7/16/20 10:47 AM, Dmitry Alexandrov wrote:
> "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" <arne_bab@web.de> wrote:
>>>> In the case you will stick with Org, there at least should be a runnable build recipe (i. e. a Makefile).
>> I’d like to cut this discussion short:
>>
>> https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl/awesome-guile/pulls/1/files
>> 	all: readme.md readme.texi readme.html
>> 	.INTERMEDIATE: .exported
>> 	readme.md readme.texi readme.html: .exported
>> 	.exported: readme.org
>> 		HOME=$$(dirname $$(realpath "$<")) emacs -Q --batch "$<" --exec "(require 'ox-md)" -f org-md-export-to-markdown -f org-html-export-to-html -f org-texinfo-export-to-texinfo -f kill-emacs
> Alternatively, without reliance on implicit behaviour (setting HOME in order to get an expected filename??):
>
> 	#!/usr/bin/make -f
> 	
> 	SHELL := emacs
> 	.SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
> 	
> 	orgs := $(wildcard *.org)
> 	objs := $(orgs:.org=.md) $(orgs:.org=.texi)
> 	
> 	.PHONY: all
> 	all: $(objs)
> 	
> 	.ONESHELL:
> 	%.md %.texi: %.org
> 		(with-temp-buffer
> 		  (require 'ox-md)
> 		  (require 'ox-texinfo)
> 		  (when (insert-file-contents "$<")
> 		    (org-mode)
> 		    (org-export-to-file 'md "$*.md")
> 		    (org-export-to-file 'texinfo "$*.texi")))

I'm not that proficient at GNU Make yet. I would like to add a way to
cleanup created md and texi files, so that, when I run `make` again, it
creates all files anew.

So I thought I could simply add a `make clean` as follows:

~~~~
.PHONY: clean
clean:
	/bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
~~~~

But then I would hardcode the location of `rm` and also it does not work:

~~~~
/bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
Symbol’s value as variable is void: /bin/rm
make: *** [Makefile:17: clean] Error 255
~~~~

I think this is, because we have `#!/usr/bin/make -f` at the top, so it
does not know what `/bin/rm/` is. How would you write the makefile to
either add a `make clean` step, or alternatively modify it so that
running `make` will always create the other formats anew?

Regards,
Zelphir



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-10-10 12:31         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-10-10 13:14           ` Matt Wette
  2020-10-11  0:57             ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Matt Wette @ 2020-10-10 13:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-user



On 10/10/20 5:31 AM, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
>
>> 	#!/usr/bin/make -f
>> 	
>> 	SHELL := emacs
>> 	.SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
>> 	
>>

Maybe try this:

     #!/usr/bin/make -f -

with the added dash.




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-10-10 13:14           ` Matt Wette
@ 2020-10-11  0:57             ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-10-11 19:51               ` Ricardo Wurmus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-10-11  0:57 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Matt Wette; +Cc: guile-user

Hello Matt,

On 10/10/20 3:14 PM, Matt Wette wrote:
>
>
> On 10/10/20 5:31 AM, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
>>
>>>     #!/usr/bin/make -f
>>>     
>>>     SHELL := emacs
>>>     .SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
>>>     
>>>
>
> Maybe try this:
>
>     #!/usr/bin/make -f -
>
> with the added dash.

This does not seem to change anything:

~~~~
#!/usr/bin/make -f -

# use emacs as a shell, so that we can write emacs lisp code in here
SHELL := emacs
# set some flags for emacs
.SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval

# all org mode files will be converted
# orgs := $(wildcard *.org)
# only the list.org file will be converted
orgs := list.org
objs := $(orgs:.org=.md) $(orgs:.org=.texi) $(orgs:.org=.html)

.PHONY: all
all: $(objs)

.PHONY: clean
clean:
	/bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;

# in here comes the shell specific code
.ONESHELL:
%.html %.md %.texi: %.org
	(with-temp-buffer
	  (require 'ox-md)
	  (require 'ox-texinfo)
	  (require 'ox-html)
	  (when (insert-file-contents "$<")
		(org-mode)
		(org-export-to-file 'md "$*.md")
		(org-export-to-file 'texinfo "$*.texi")
		(org-export-to-file 'html "$*.html")))
~~~~

~~~~
$ make clean
/bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
Symbol’s value as variable is void: /bin/rm
make: *** [Makefile:19: clean] Error 255
~~~~

-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-10-11  0:57             ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-10-11 19:51               ` Ricardo Wurmus
  2020-10-11 23:39                 ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Ricardo Wurmus @ 2020-10-11 19:51 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: guile-user, Matt Wette


Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:

> Hello Matt,
>
> On 10/10/20 3:14 PM, Matt Wette wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 10/10/20 5:31 AM, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
>>>
>>>>     #!/usr/bin/make -f
>>>>     
>>>>     SHELL := emacs
>>>>     .SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
>>>>     
>>>>
>>
>> Maybe try this:
>>
>>     #!/usr/bin/make -f -
>>
>> with the added dash.
>
> This does not seem to change anything:
>
> ~~~~
> #!/usr/bin/make -f -
>
> # use emacs as a shell, so that we can write emacs lisp code in here
> SHELL := emacs
> # set some flags for emacs
> .SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
>
> # all org mode files will be converted
> # orgs := $(wildcard *.org)
> # only the list.org file will be converted
> orgs := list.org
> objs := $(orgs:.org=.md) $(orgs:.org=.texi) $(orgs:.org=.html)
>
> .PHONY: all
> all: $(objs)
>
> .PHONY: clean
> clean:
> 	/bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
>
> # in here comes the shell specific code
> .ONESHELL:
> %.html %.md %.texi: %.org
> 	(with-temp-buffer
> 	  (require 'ox-md)
> 	  (require 'ox-texinfo)
> 	  (require 'ox-html)
> 	  (when (insert-file-contents "$<")
> 		(org-mode)
> 		(org-export-to-file 'md "$*.md")
> 		(org-export-to-file 'texinfo "$*.texi")
> 		(org-export-to-file 'html "$*.html")))
> ~~~~
>
> ~~~~
> $ make clean
> /bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
> Symbol’s value as variable is void: /bin/rm
> make: *** [Makefile:19: clean] Error 255
> ~~~~

Well, isn’t that expected as you’re using Emacs as a shell?

-- 
Ricardo



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-10-11 19:51               ` Ricardo Wurmus
@ 2020-10-11 23:39                 ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-10-12 10:33                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-10-11 23:39 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ricardo Wurmus; +Cc: guile-user, Matt Wette

Hi Ricardo!

On 10/11/20 9:51 PM, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
>
>> Hello Matt,
>>
>> On 10/10/20 3:14 PM, Matt Wette wrote:
>>>
>>> On 10/10/20 5:31 AM, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
>>>>>     #!/usr/bin/make -f
>>>>>     
>>>>>     SHELL := emacs
>>>>>     .SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
>>>>>     
>>>>>
>>> Maybe try this:
>>>
>>>     #!/usr/bin/make -f -
>>>
>>> with the added dash.
>> This does not seem to change anything:
>>
>> ~~~~
>> #!/usr/bin/make -f -
>>
>> # use emacs as a shell, so that we can write emacs lisp code in here
>> SHELL := emacs
>> # set some flags for emacs
>> .SHELLFLAGS := --quick --batch --eval
>>
>> # all org mode files will be converted
>> # orgs := $(wildcard *.org)
>> # only the list.org file will be converted
>> orgs := list.org
>> objs := $(orgs:.org=.md) $(orgs:.org=.texi) $(orgs:.org=.html)
>>
>> .PHONY: all
>> all: $(objs)
>>
>> .PHONY: clean
>> clean:
>> 	/bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
>>
>> # in here comes the shell specific code
>> .ONESHELL:
>> %.html %.md %.texi: %.org
>> 	(with-temp-buffer
>> 	  (require 'ox-md)
>> 	  (require 'ox-texinfo)
>> 	  (require 'ox-html)
>> 	  (when (insert-file-contents "$<")
>> 		(org-mode)
>> 		(org-export-to-file 'md "$*.md")
>> 		(org-export-to-file 'texinfo "$*.texi")
>> 		(org-export-to-file 'html "$*.html")))
>> ~~~~
>>
>> ~~~~
>> $ make clean
>> /bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
>> Symbol’s value as variable is void: /bin/rm
>> make: *** [Makefile:19: clean] Error 255
>> ~~~~
> Well, isn’t that expected as you’re using Emacs as a shell?

Yes : ) But that is the problem: How can I add a clean step, even though
I am using Emacs as shell? Or can I switch shell for one command?

I realize this might be not the correct user list to ask these
questions. If so, I am sorry for the confusion!

Best regards,
Zelphir

-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-10-11 23:39                 ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-10-12 10:33                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
  2020-11-08 17:09                     ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Ricardo Wurmus @ 2020-10-12 10:33 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Zelphir Kaltstahl; +Cc: guile-user, Matt Wette


Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:

>>> ~~~~
>>> $ make clean
>>> /bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
>>> Symbol’s value as variable is void: /bin/rm
>>> make: *** [Makefile:19: clean] Error 255
>>> ~~~~
>> Well, isn’t that expected as you’re using Emacs as a shell?
>
> Yes : ) But that is the problem: How can I add a clean step, even though
> I am using Emacs as shell? Or can I switch shell for one command?

Try this elisp snippet:

    (call-process "/bin/rm" nil nil nil "the-file-to-delete")

-- 
Ricardo



^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-10-12 10:33                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
@ 2020-11-08 17:09                     ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  2020-11-08 18:55                       ` Paul Smith
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-11-08 17:09 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ricardo Wurmus; +Cc: guile-user, Matt Wette

Hi Ricardo!

Thanks for your reply. I've not gotten around to trying this yet.

I was hoping for a solution, which could use Elisp in one part of the
makefile and bash in another part of the makefile. I seem to remember a
blog post somewhere, in which someone explained how to use various
things as shells in makefiles, but I have lost the link to it and could
not find it again. I also do not remember, whether that was multiple
different things as shell in one makefile, or in separate files.

For example I would like to use Elisp for the Emacs stuff and Bash for
removing files.

However, in the meantime I figured out, that I could simply mark
something as .PHONY when I do not care about its output already being
there or when it has no output.

At some point I need to learn more about makefiles again. For now I
think my makefile knowledge is only basic.

Thanks,
Zelphir

On 10/12/20 12:33 PM, Ricardo Wurmus wrote:
> Zelphir Kaltstahl <zelphirkaltstahl@posteo.de> writes:
>
>>>> ~~~~
>>>> $ make clean
>>>> /bin/rm --verbose *.html *.md *.texi || true;
>>>> Symbol’s value as variable is void: /bin/rm
>>>> make: *** [Makefile:19: clean] Error 255
>>>> ~~~~
>>> Well, isn’t that expected as you’re using Emacs as a shell?
>> Yes : ) But that is the problem: How can I add a clean step, even though
>> I am using Emacs as shell? Or can I switch shell for one command?
> Try this elisp snippet:
>
>     (call-process "/bin/rm" nil nil nil "the-file-to-delete")
>
-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-11-08 17:09                     ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
@ 2020-11-08 18:55                       ` Paul Smith
  2020-12-05 18:15                         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  0 siblings, 1 reply; 33+ messages in thread
From: Paul Smith @ 2020-11-08 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: Ricardo Wurmus; +Cc: guile-user

On Sun, 2020-11-08 at 18:09 +0100, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
> I was hoping for a solution, which could use Elisp in one part of the
> makefile and bash in another part of the makefile.

I apologize that I wasn't following the previous messages in this
thread so I don't have the full context.

However, you can choose to use different interpreters for different
recipes in modern GNU make by assigning the SHELL variable as a target-
specific variable [1]:

    SHELL = /usr/bin/guile

    all: guile sh

    guile: ; ; this is the default and runs in guile

    sh: SHELL = /bin/bash
    sh: ; # this is overridden and runs in the shell



[1] https://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/Target_002dspecific.html




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

* Re: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list
  2020-11-08 18:55                       ` Paul Smith
@ 2020-12-05 18:15                         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
  0 siblings, 0 replies; 33+ messages in thread
From: Zelphir Kaltstahl @ 2020-12-05 18:15 UTC (permalink / raw)
  To: guile-user

Thanks for that, I'll try that!

On 11/8/20 7:55 PM, Paul Smith wrote:
> On Sun, 2020-11-08 at 18:09 +0100, Zelphir Kaltstahl wrote:
>> I was hoping for a solution, which could use Elisp in one part of the
>> makefile and bash in another part of the makefile.
> I apologize that I wasn't following the previous messages in this
> thread so I don't have the full context.
>
> However, you can choose to use different interpreters for different
> recipes in modern GNU make by assigning the SHELL variable as a target-
> specific variable [1]:
>
>     SHELL = /usr/bin/guile
>
>     all: guile sh
>
>     guile: ; ; this is the default and runs in guile
>
>     sh: SHELL = /bin/bash
>     sh: ; # this is overridden and runs in the shell
>
>
>
> [1] https://www.gnu.org/software/make/manual/html_node/Target_002dspecific.html
>
>
-- 
repositories: https://notabug.org/ZelphirKaltstahl




^ permalink raw reply	[flat|nested] 33+ messages in thread

end of thread, other threads:[~2020-12-05 18:15 UTC | newest]

Thread overview: 33+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2020-07-13 21:19 Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-07-13 21:56 ` Jack Hill
2020-07-13 22:56 ` Aleix Conchillo Flaqué
2020-07-14 23:26   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-07-14  9:00 ` Dmitry Alexandrov
2020-07-14 21:23   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-07-15  6:32     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-16  8:47       ` Dmitry Alexandrov
2020-07-16 19:01         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-10-10 12:31         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-10-10 13:14           ` Matt Wette
2020-10-11  0:57             ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-10-11 19:51               ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-11 23:39                 ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-10-12 10:33                   ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-11-08 17:09                     ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-11-08 18:55                       ` Paul Smith
2020-12-05 18:15                         ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-07-15  6:36     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-15 21:14       ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-07-15 22:40         ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-16  9:18         ` A licence for an ‘awesome list’ (was: Starting a GNU Guile awesome list) Dmitry Alexandrov
2020-07-16 18:56           ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-16 18:58             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-16 20:47           ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-07-16 22:55             ` Vladimir Zhbanov
2020-07-16 23:05               ` Vladimir Zhbanov
2020-07-17  0:20             ` John Cowan
2020-07-17  6:43               ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-14 14:14 ` Starting a GNU Guile awesome list Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-15 21:24   ` Zelphir Kaltstahl
2020-07-15 22:29     ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2020-07-14 16:37 ` Taylan Kammer

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