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From: "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@gnu.org>
To: Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Suggested experimental test
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 2021 14:14:55 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <E1lOP4p-0003hW-Tu@fencepost.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <271290d7aa5560786ded@heytings.org> (message from Gregory Heytings on Mon, 22 Mar 2021 10:05:19 +0000)

   That doesn't answer the main question: how do you concretely poll these 
   users? and what would you consider to be a significant enough fraction of 
   Emacs users for the poll to be representative?  Would 500 answers be 
   enough? 1000? 5000? 10000?

I don't have the link at hand, but RMS had posted how to do exactly
this time of poll.  I can try to locate it for you if you want.

   What would you do with the result of such a poll?  What if only 50 or 100 
   in those 10000 answer "yes"?  Should the feature be kept for those 50 or 
   100?

The idea behind a poll is to gather some data and get an idea of the
overal situation.  emacs-devel isn't a very good place for such
information.

   Moreover the result of a yes/no poll like "Do you use M-o 
   (frobnicate-line)?" is not very useful:

What is the issue understanding those answers? They give some insight
as to what users might prefer and what they do.

   > so one could accumulate a set of proposal in release 20, send it out 
   > during release 21, and delibrate and implement for 22.

   That would be unrealistic, it would mean a four to six years waiting 
   period before an UI change can be implemented, long enough to discourage 
   anyone in advance to even envision the possibility of proposing such a 
   change.

Would that be a bad thing? Why is there such a hurry to change
_existing_ behaviour, or specifically _removing_ existing behaviour?
We aren't talking about every single UI change.  Emacs is stable, and
significant changes in the UI should take time (I consider C-o to be
more significant than M-o -- which at least when it got modified the
key got a different useful meaning).

   >> Fortunately, such changes are easy to revert for users who would
   >> dislike them, and the way to revert them is documented in the
   >> NEWS file.
   >
   > From my experience, it isn't the case.

   Of course it is, for example the way to revert the M-o change is
   documented in the NEWS file, both for those who would like to only
   revert facemenu, and for those who would like to only revert the
   two center-foo commands.

We are misscommunicating, I am talking about restoring the previous
behaviour in Emacs, not on a per user basis.  

The point here is that the suggestions have been removing
featues, without replacing them. exit-recursive-edit got moved to a
different binding, and the semantics of C-c got changed to something
useful.



  reply	other threads:[~2021-03-22 18:14 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 171+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2021-03-20  9:03 Suggested experimental test Gregory Heytings
2021-03-20 11:14 ` Jean Louis
2021-03-20 11:27   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-20 11:34   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-20 12:37 ` Proposal to remove C-o binding [was: Suggested experimental test] Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-21  6:53 ` Suggested experimental test Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-21  8:35   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-21 13:20     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-21 18:16       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-21 22:16         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-21 22:54           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-21 23:05             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-21 23:13               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-21 23:46                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22  0:40                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22 10:05                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 18:14                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt [this message]
2021-03-22 19:06                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 19:56                           ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-22 21:03                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22 21:26                               ` Drew Adams
2021-03-23  8:06                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22 21:08                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22 11:21                   ` Jean Louis
2021-03-22 11:07               ` Jean Louis
2021-03-22  3:33           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 10:05             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 11:37               ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-03-22 12:20                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 17:38               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 17:48                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 18:11                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 18:15                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22 18:14               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22  8:59           ` Rudolf Schlatte
2021-03-22 10:05             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 10:49           ` Jean Louis
2021-03-21 10:48   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-21 10:58     ` Sv: " arthur miller
2021-03-21 13:20       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-21 18:16       ` Sv: " Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22  5:11         ` Richard Stallman
2021-03-22 10:24       ` Sv: " Jean Louis
2021-03-22 10:14     ` Jean Louis
2021-03-22 12:06     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 12:23       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 16:15         ` Jean Louis
2021-03-22 16:14       ` Jean Louis
2021-03-22 17:08         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 17:46           ` Alan Mackenzie
2021-03-22 17:59             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 18:23             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-23  6:09             ` Richard Stallman
2021-03-22 18:03           ` Jean Louis
2021-03-22 17:20       ` Robin Tarsiger
2021-03-22 17:40       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 17:55         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 18:13           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 20:22             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23  8:06               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 14:15                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23 14:37                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 16:51                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23 17:13                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 18:08                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-23 21:06                         ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23 21:43                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-23 21:57                             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23 22:08                               ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-23 22:14                                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23 22:42                                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-23 23:05                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-24  5:15                                 ` Richard Stallman
2021-03-24  5:16                           ` Richard Stallman
2021-03-24  6:39                           ` Jean Louis
2021-03-24  6:32                       ` Jean Louis
2021-03-24  6:10                   ` Jean Louis
2021-03-22 18:17         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 18:50           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 19:09             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 19:55               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 22:02                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-22 22:33                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-22 23:28                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-22 22:44                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-22 23:22                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-23  5:22                     ` Jean Louis
2021-03-23  7:43                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 12:28                         ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-03-23 12:41                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 13:09                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-23 13:27                               ` Philip Kaludercic
2021-03-23 14:00                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-23 13:54                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 17:04                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-23 21:06                                 ` chad
2021-03-24  5:07                             ` Jean Louis
2021-03-25  5:09                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-03-23  6:12                     ` Yuri Khan
2021-03-24 23:41                       ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-25  6:12                         ` Yuri Khan
2021-03-25 13:20                           ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-25 14:30                             ` Basil L. Contovounesios
2021-03-25 17:09                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-25 18:59                               ` Yuri Khan
2021-03-25 19:30                             ` Yuri Khan
2021-03-25 21:11                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-25 23:54                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-26 10:34                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-03-26 23:13                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-26 23:34                               ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-27  0:02                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-28 13:59                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-22 20:22               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-22 20:36                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 21:03                   ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2021-03-22 20:56         ` Thierry Volpiatto
2021-03-22 18:11       ` [EXTERNAL] " Stephan Mueller
2021-03-22 18:34         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 18:56           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 19:13             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 19:19               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 19:25                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 19:49                   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-22 19:52                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 20:54                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-22 21:04                         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-23  7:18                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 19:21               ` chad
2021-03-22 19:26                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 19:51                   ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-22 20:04                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 20:11                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 20:16                         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-23  7:04                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 20:49                       ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-22 21:02                         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-23  7:09                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-22 19:28                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-22 19:56                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-03-22 20:56                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-22 21:19                       ` Drew Adams
2021-03-22 20:22             ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23  8:09               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 14:15                 ` Gregory Heytings
2021-03-23 14:31                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-23 17:21                   ` Bob Rogers
2021-03-24  5:42                   ` Jean Louis
2021-03-23 20:55                 ` chad
2021-03-25 17:04           ` [EXTERNAL] " Stephan Mueller
2021-03-22 19:37         ` Stefan Monnier
2021-03-22 19:42         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-22 20:33       ` Jose A. Ortega Ruiz
2021-03-22 18:42     ` Sean Whitton
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2021-03-23 21:51 Paul W. Rankin via Emacs development discussions.
2021-03-24  8:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-03-24  8:51   ` tomas
2021-03-24  9:16     ` Paul W. Rankin via Emacs development discussions.
2021-03-24  9:22       ` tomas
2021-03-24 10:37     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-24 11:13       ` tomas
2021-03-24 11:51         ` Jean Louis
2021-03-24 11:55           ` tomas
2021-03-25  5:14           ` Richard Stallman
2021-03-24 17:04         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-03-24 17:19           ` tomas
2021-03-24 17:30         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-03-24 20:08           ` tomas
2021-03-25  5:14       ` Richard Stallman
2021-03-25  5:48         ` Paul W. Rankin via Emacs development discussions.
2021-03-25  7:46         ` Eli Zaretskii

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