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From: "Stephen J. Turnbull" <stephen@xemacs.org>
Cc: Terje Bless <link@pobox.com>,
	xemacs-design@xemacs.org,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: The minibuffer vs. Dialog Boxes (Re: Making XEmacs be more up-to-date)
Date: 23 Apr 2002 21:28:41 +0900	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <87it6iwqdi.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <vafg01mk5tm.fsf@INBOX.auto.emacs.devel.tok.lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>

>>>>> "Kai" == Kai Großjohann <Kai.Grossjohann@CS.Uni-Dortmund.DE> writes:

    Kai> I think Eli is sympathizing with Terje.  Does "refuse"
    Kai> perhaps convey a stronger meaning to a native English speaker
    Kai> than I thought at first?

Hm.  That hadn't occurred to me.  "Refuse to learn" in my dialect is
quite a strong condemnation, actually, and I was already adding quite
a bit of fuzz since Eli isn't (quite) a native speaker.  :-)  To
"refuse" to learn typically implies obstinacy or perversity.  In my
dialect, which I think is representative of native speakers in this
particular case.

My apologies, Eli, if I've gotten the connotations you intend quite
opposite.

Be that as it may, Eli is clearly arguing that the benefits to
learning more about Emacs IHHO greatly outweigh the barriers, enough
so that he's willing to contest Terje's (thought-out) opinion.
Furthermore, Eli implies that the cost of reducing the barriers is
quite high (elsewhere in the thread).

My point was that in XEmacs there are several developers who take the
opposite position (Andy, Ben, at least).  Despite (?) their
development experience, they feel the barriers are higher than the
benefits for a large potential audience, and that the cost to the
developers of reducing those barriers is low enough to be well worth
it.



-- 
Institute of Policy and Planning Sciences     http://turnbull.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp
University of Tsukuba                    Tennodai 1-1-1 Tsukuba 305-8573 JAPAN
              Don't ask how you can "do" free software business;
              ask what your business can "do for" free software.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2002-04-23 12:28 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 151+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <f01050101-1013-2EBD099554C511D6B75900039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-21  1:45 ` The minibuffer vs. Dialog Boxes (Re: Making XEmacs be more up-to-date) Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found] ` <sxssn5pvn7u.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  2:10   ` Miles Bader
2002-04-21  3:21   ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-21  6:39   ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-21 15:11   ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21 17:17     ` Hrvoje Niksic
2002-04-21 19:02     ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]     ` <sxsbscdt1i3.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21 19:40       ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]       ` <3CC31593.1040001@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-22  3:18         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]     ` <7263-Sun21Apr2002220242+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-21 21:30       ` Terje Bless
2002-04-22  3:49         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-22  6:04           ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23 11:33           ` Kai Großjohann
     [not found]           ` <vafg01mk5tm.fsf@INBOX.auto.emacs.devel.tok.lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
2002-04-23 12:28             ` Stephen J. Turnbull [this message]
2002-04-23 13:02               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23 13:34               ` Kai Großjohann
     [not found]               ` <vafg01mh72r.fsf@INBOX.auto.emacs.devel.tok.lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
2002-04-23 14:09                 ` Stefan Monnier
2002-04-23 14:48               ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23 23:23             ` Terje Bless
2002-04-23 22:27           ` Terje Bless
2002-04-22  6:02         ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-22  4:18       ` Miles Bader
2002-04-23  3:07     ` Andy Piper
2002-04-23 11:26     ` Kai Großjohann
     [not found]   ` <3CC23021.5090506@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-21 15:19     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-21  6:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <000401c1ebfa$5bc43060$947ba8c0@TSUNAMI>
2002-05-01  8:33 ` Michael Toomim
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020424090919.4915F-100000@is>
2002-04-25  2:04 ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found] <f01050101-1014-AEEDD9C8571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  9:08 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found] <f01050101-1014-BA54C556571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  6:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <m2k7qymbos.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-24  6:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-24 16:31   ` Brady Montz
     [not found] <f01050101-1014-A82EBF4C571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  0:43 ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-04-24  6:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-24  9:23 ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-24  0:08 Terje Bless
     [not found] <vafk7qyk64g.fsf@INBOX.auto.emacs.devel.tok.lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
2002-04-23 23:21 ` Terje Bless
     [not found] ` <f01050101-1014-AC0D4356571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  3:45   ` Sean MacLennan
2002-04-24 10:15   ` Kai Großjohann
2002-04-24 17:40   ` Jan D.
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020423173957.27983A@is>
2002-04-23 16:28 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23 18:38 ` Michael Matthew Toomim
2002-04-23 19:29   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]   ` <2950-Tue23Apr2002222955+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-23 22:13     ` Terje Bless
2002-04-23 23:51     ` Michael Toomim
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020423093250.22959G-100000@is>
2002-04-23  7:01 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23 11:16   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <rj662jq5ef.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2002-04-22 12:59 ` Simon Josefsson
     [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204221304080.3349-100000@yxa.extundo.com>
2002-04-22 12:33 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-23 19:31 ` Richard Stallman
     [not found] <buoelh89xik.fsf@mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp>
2002-04-22  6:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <000501c1e8b4$abd058c0$947ba8c0@TSUNAMI>
2002-04-21 15:38 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020421092955.2767F-100000@is>
2002-04-21 15:29 ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21 18:53   ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23  3:07   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-23 18:42     ` Michael Matthew Toomim
2002-04-23 23:14     ` Terje Bless
     [not found]     ` <3CC5AB1D.5000004@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-23 18:52       ` Hrvoje Niksic
2002-04-25  1:41       ` Andy Piper
2002-04-25  1:41       ` Andy Piper
     [not found] <000601c1e8b5$2960f830$947ba8c0@TSUNAMI>
2002-04-21 10:57 ` Alex Schroeder
2002-04-21 14:48 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found] <87sn5q2mj4.fsf@amaterasu.srvr.nix>
2002-04-21  6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <4.3.2.7.2.20020419095141.00bf8580@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-20 15:44 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-20 16:59   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 19:42   ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found]   ` <sxshem6nolr.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  3:47     ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-21  8:44     ` Per Abrahamsen
     [not found] <f01050101-1013-195C612D544F11D6B75900039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-20 11:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] ` <7263-Sat20Apr2002145929+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-20 12:22   ` Miles Bader
2002-04-20 14:04   ` Simon Josefsson
2002-04-20 15:30     ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-20 18:59     ` Andreas Schwab
     [not found]     ` <E16ywpH-0004J0-00@fencepost.gnu.org>
2002-04-20 19:48       ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found]       ` <sxs8z7inobz.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  0:56         ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21  5:41         ` Miles Bader
2002-04-21  5:57           ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found]           ` <sxsu1q5twz5.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  7:24             ` Miles Bader
     [not found]             ` <87adrxo6o7.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp>
2002-04-21 12:21               ` Robert J. Chassell
     [not found]               ` <m16zGLO-000IiIC@localhost>
2002-04-21 13:35                 ` Miles Bader
2002-04-23 11:17                 ` Kai Großjohann
2002-04-21  6:28         ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-20 19:17   ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]   ` <3CC1BEB9.9020104@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-20 19:28     ` Kyle Jones
2002-04-20 19:33     ` Nix
2002-04-20 19:51     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
     [not found]     ` <15553.49507.745094.604981@ice.wonderworks.com>
2002-04-21  0:04       ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21  3:24       ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]       ` <3CC230D1.2040106@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-21  3:46         ` Miles Bader
     [not found]     ` <87elhap2r4.fsf@lgh163a.kemisten.nu>
2002-04-21  1:09       ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21 11:37         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2002-04-21  3:28       ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]       ` <3CC231D2.6020709@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-21 11:25         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
     [not found]         ` <873cxpz436.fsf@lgh163a.kemisten.nu>
2002-04-21 15:41           ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21 17:54             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2002-04-21 17:08           ` Robert J. Chassell
     [not found]           ` <m16zKoy-000IioC@localhost>
2002-04-21 17:51             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
     [not found]   ` <87adrypnjn.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp>
2002-04-20 19:33     ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]     ` <3CC1C275.6090009@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-20 21:26       ` Kyle Jones
     [not found]       ` <15553.56593.407791.923999@ice.wonderworks.com>
2002-04-20 21:48         ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 23:16         ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-21  6:24       ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-20 23:58     ` Terje Bless
2002-04-20 23:48   ` Terje Bless
2002-04-20 14:12 ` Serge Wroclawski
2002-04-20 16:28 ` Brady Montz
2002-04-20 18:51   ` Matt Tucker
     [not found] <4.3.2.7.2.20020417123512.0398e4c8@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-19 11:40 ` Per Abrahamsen
     [not found] ` <rjk7r3zzk4.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2002-04-19 16:27   ` Brady Montz
2002-04-19 16:55   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 17:27   ` Richard Stallman
     [not found] ` <m2g01rbjhi.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-19 20:28   ` Andy Piper
     [not found] ` <4.3.2.7.2.20020419132421.00bfa9d0@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-19 20:39   ` Brady Montz
2002-04-20 23:53   ` William M. Perry
     [not found] ` <m2d6wvodpt.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-19 17:00   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 11:03   ` Terje Bless
2002-04-20 17:27   ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]   ` <200204201727.g3KHRTg01417@aztec.santafe.edu>
2002-04-21  2:06     ` Brady Montz
     [not found]     ` <m2wuv1yfdj.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-21  6:48       ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-21  7:35         ` Brady Montz
2002-04-21 15:31           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]           ` <87vgal3w79.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-21 17:17             ` Brady Montz
2002-04-21 18:49             ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]             ` <m2d6wtx97q.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-21 19:09               ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-22  2:58               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]               ` <87vgak30cw.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-22 16:54                 ` Brady Montz
     [not found]                 ` <m2elh7wu6m.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-22 19:40                   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                   ` <7263-Mon22Apr2002224014+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-22 20:46                     ` Brady Montz
2002-04-23  4:03                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23  6:31                       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                       ` <87bscbysbm.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-23  6:41                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23 16:21                         ` Brady Montz
     [not found]                         ` <m2r8l6v108.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-23 17:09                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]                           ` <878z7euysa.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-23 18:20                             ` Brady Montz
2002-04-23 19:21                               ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                               ` <7263-Tue23Apr2002222135+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-23 19:56                                 ` Brady Montz
2002-04-23 23:00                       ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-24  6:09                         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]               ` <2950-Sun21Apr2002220958+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-22 16:56                 ` Brady Montz
2002-04-21  9:01       ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-21 20:21         ` Simon Josefsson
     [not found]         ` <ilusn5o950a.fsf@extundo.com>
2002-04-22  8:50           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-22  9:00             ` Miles Bader
     [not found]             ` <buoy9fg85ve.fsf@mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp>
2002-04-22 10:44               ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-22 11:12               ` Simon Josefsson
     [not found]               ` <rjk7r0ovw9.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2002-04-22 12:36                 ` Miles Bader
2002-04-22 22:36           ` Richard Stallman
     [not found] ` <4.3.2.7.2.20020419095654.00bee3c0@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-19 19:01   ` Brady Montz
2002-04-20 17:28   ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]   ` <200204201728.g3KHSDW01513@aztec.santafe.edu>
2002-04-20 21:45     ` Andy Piper
2002-04-21 15:54     ` William M. Perry

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