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From: Terje Bless <link@pobox.com>
Cc: Michael Toomim <toomim@cs.berkeley.edu>,
	 Eli Zaretskii <eliz@is.elta.co.il>,
	bradym@balestra.org,  xemacs-design@xemacs.org,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: The minibuffer vs. Dialog Boxes (Re: Making XEmacs be more up-to-date)
Date: Sun, 21 Apr 2002 17:41:49 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <f01050101-1013-60C5609A554611D6B75900039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <873cxpz436.fsf@lgh163a.kemisten.nu>

Alfred M. Szmidt <ams@kemisten.nu> wrote:

>* Michael Toomim writes:
>>There's a thing called "user-centered design".  In modern times, it is
>>generally accepted to be good.
>
>Maybe you should call it "new user-centred design"?  Because it surely
>doesn't make any sense on changing the name of such a basic concept like
>"buffer" to "document" or "file" when you are already familiar with
>Emacs.  The whole terminology is so hard coded into Emacs that it would
>be a pitta to change, and would cause more harm than good.  Think of all
>the old time users, they would still call buffers for buffers, and new
>users would ask what a buffer is.
>
>Maybe the entry in the Emacs manual (Glossary) should be fixed to
>describe what a buffer is so that it makes more sense to a user, but
>changing it to something totally different? No. That would be like
>rewriting Emacs.

I think I may have confused the issue rather more then I helped. Sorry.

My (rather ineptly explained) point was rather that good UI design should
focus on the task the user wishes to acomplish instead of how the feature
is implemented. The buffer/file dichotomy was merely an example, and
possibly a poor one at that. The main idea was that when I'm working using
XEmacs I don't think about performing operations on a buffer; I think about
the task as opening a file and editing it. Forcing me to think in terms of
loading data into a buffer, and performing operations on that buffer before
writing it back to disk, imposes an additional cognitive burden on me.

I'm not suggesting you do a global search and replace of "file" for
"buffer"; only that you take this point of view into account when designing
and architecting all aspects of the application. I'm advocating abstracting
the user interface away from the implementation details. This does mean
there is an abstraction between UI and implementation that will be a burden
for those developing it. That may be too expensive a tradeoff for the
developers, but I'd hoped not, as many other developers manage this without
too much pain. Of course, the Emacsen are somewhat unique in this respect.


I do not (not not not!) suggest dumbing down XEmacs! I'm suggesting
_smarting_ it up! That is, provide more friendly and helpfull features for
those that need them while staying out of the way of those that do not.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2002-04-21 15:41 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 151+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <f01050101-1013-195C612D544F11D6B75900039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-20 11:59 ` The minibuffer vs. Dialog Boxes (Re: Making XEmacs be more up-to-date) Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-20 14:12 ` Serge Wroclawski
2002-04-20 16:28 ` Brady Montz
2002-04-20 18:51   ` Matt Tucker
     [not found] ` <7263-Sat20Apr2002145929+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-20 12:22   ` Miles Bader
2002-04-20 14:04   ` Simon Josefsson
2002-04-20 15:30     ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-20 18:59     ` Andreas Schwab
     [not found]     ` <E16ywpH-0004J0-00@fencepost.gnu.org>
2002-04-20 19:48       ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found]       ` <sxs8z7inobz.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  0:56         ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21  5:41         ` Miles Bader
2002-04-21  5:57           ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found]           ` <sxsu1q5twz5.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  7:24             ` Miles Bader
     [not found]             ` <87adrxo6o7.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp>
2002-04-21 12:21               ` Robert J. Chassell
     [not found]               ` <m16zGLO-000IiIC@localhost>
2002-04-21 13:35                 ` Miles Bader
2002-04-23 11:17                 ` Kai Großjohann
2002-04-21  6:28         ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-20 19:17   ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]   ` <87adrypnjn.fsf@tc-1-100.kawasaki.gol.ne.jp>
2002-04-20 19:33     ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-20 23:58     ` Terje Bless
     [not found]     ` <3CC1C275.6090009@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-20 21:26       ` Kyle Jones
     [not found]       ` <15553.56593.407791.923999@ice.wonderworks.com>
2002-04-20 21:48         ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 23:16         ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-21  6:24       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]   ` <3CC1BEB9.9020104@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-20 19:28     ` Kyle Jones
2002-04-20 19:33     ` Nix
2002-04-20 19:51     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
     [not found]     ` <15553.49507.745094.604981@ice.wonderworks.com>
2002-04-21  0:04       ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21  3:24       ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]       ` <3CC230D1.2040106@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-21  3:46         ` Miles Bader
     [not found]     ` <87elhap2r4.fsf@lgh163a.kemisten.nu>
2002-04-21  1:09       ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21 11:37         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2002-04-21  3:28       ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]       ` <3CC231D2.6020709@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-21 11:25         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
     [not found]         ` <873cxpz436.fsf@lgh163a.kemisten.nu>
2002-04-21 15:41           ` Terje Bless [this message]
2002-04-21 17:54             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2002-04-21 17:08           ` Robert J. Chassell
     [not found]           ` <m16zKoy-000IioC@localhost>
2002-04-21 17:51             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2002-04-20 23:48   ` Terje Bless
     [not found] <000401c1ebfa$5bc43060$947ba8c0@TSUNAMI>
2002-05-01  8:33 ` Michael Toomim
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020424090919.4915F-100000@is>
2002-04-25  2:04 ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found] <f01050101-1014-A82EBF4C571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  0:43 ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-04-24  6:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-24  9:23 ` Michael Toomim
     [not found] <f01050101-1014-AEEDD9C8571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  9:08 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found] <f01050101-1014-BA54C556571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  6:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <m2k7qymbos.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-24  6:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-24 16:31   ` Brady Montz
2002-04-24  0:08 Terje Bless
     [not found] <vafk7qyk64g.fsf@INBOX.auto.emacs.devel.tok.lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
2002-04-23 23:21 ` Terje Bless
     [not found] ` <f01050101-1014-AC0D4356571711D6A31200039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-24  3:45   ` Sean MacLennan
2002-04-24 10:15   ` Kai Großjohann
2002-04-24 17:40   ` Jan D.
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020423173957.27983A@is>
2002-04-23 16:28 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23 18:38 ` Michael Matthew Toomim
2002-04-23 19:29   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]   ` <2950-Tue23Apr2002222955+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-23 22:13     ` Terje Bless
2002-04-23 23:51     ` Michael Toomim
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020423093250.22959G-100000@is>
2002-04-23  7:01 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23 11:16   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <rj662jq5ef.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2002-04-22 12:59 ` Simon Josefsson
     [not found] <Pine.LNX.4.44.0204221304080.3349-100000@yxa.extundo.com>
2002-04-22 12:33 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-23 19:31 ` Richard Stallman
     [not found] <buoelh89xik.fsf@mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp>
2002-04-22  6:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <000501c1e8b4$abd058c0$947ba8c0@TSUNAMI>
2002-04-21 15:38 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found] <Pine.SUN.3.91.1020421092955.2767F-100000@is>
2002-04-21 15:29 ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21 18:53   ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23  3:07   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-23 18:42     ` Michael Matthew Toomim
     [not found]     ` <3CC5AB1D.5000004@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-23 18:52       ` Hrvoje Niksic
2002-04-25  1:41       ` Andy Piper
2002-04-25  1:41       ` Andy Piper
2002-04-23 23:14     ` Terje Bless
     [not found] <000601c1e8b5$2960f830$947ba8c0@TSUNAMI>
2002-04-21 10:57 ` Alex Schroeder
2002-04-21 14:48 ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found] <87sn5q2mj4.fsf@amaterasu.srvr.nix>
2002-04-21  6:25 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <f01050101-1013-2EBD099554C511D6B75900039300CF5C@[192.168.1.7]>
2002-04-21  1:45 ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found] ` <sxssn5pvn7u.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  2:10   ` Miles Bader
2002-04-21  3:21   ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-21  6:39   ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-21 15:11   ` Terje Bless
2002-04-21 17:17     ` Hrvoje Niksic
2002-04-21 19:02     ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]     ` <sxsbscdt1i3.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21 19:40       ` Michael Toomim
     [not found]       ` <3CC31593.1040001@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-22  3:18         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]     ` <7263-Sun21Apr2002220242+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-21 21:30       ` Terje Bless
2002-04-22  3:49         ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-22  6:04           ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23 11:33           ` Kai Großjohann
     [not found]           ` <vafg01mk5tm.fsf@INBOX.auto.emacs.devel.tok.lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
2002-04-23 12:28             ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23 13:02               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23 13:34               ` Kai Großjohann
     [not found]               ` <vafg01mh72r.fsf@INBOX.auto.emacs.devel.tok.lucy.cs.uni-dortmund.de>
2002-04-23 14:09                 ` Stefan Monnier
2002-04-23 14:48               ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23 23:23             ` Terje Bless
2002-04-23 22:27           ` Terje Bless
2002-04-22  6:02         ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-22  4:18       ` Miles Bader
2002-04-23  3:07     ` Andy Piper
2002-04-23 11:26     ` Kai Großjohann
     [not found]   ` <3CC23021.5090506@cs.berkeley.edu>
2002-04-21 15:19     ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-21  6:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found] <4.3.2.7.2.20020419095141.00bf8580@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-20 15:44 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-20 16:59   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 19:42   ` Hrvoje Niksic
     [not found]   ` <sxshem6nolr.fsf@florida.arsdigita.de>
2002-04-21  3:47     ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-21  8:44     ` Per Abrahamsen
     [not found] <4.3.2.7.2.20020417123512.0398e4c8@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-19 11:40 ` Per Abrahamsen
     [not found] ` <4.3.2.7.2.20020419095654.00bee3c0@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-19 19:01   ` Brady Montz
2002-04-20 17:28   ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]   ` <200204201728.g3KHSDW01513@aztec.santafe.edu>
2002-04-20 21:45     ` Andy Piper
2002-04-21 15:54     ` William M. Perry
     [not found] ` <m2g01rbjhi.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-19 20:28   ` Andy Piper
     [not found] ` <4.3.2.7.2.20020419132421.00bfa9d0@san-francisco.beasys.com>
2002-04-19 20:39   ` Brady Montz
2002-04-20 23:53   ` William M. Perry
     [not found] ` <m2d6wvodpt.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-19 17:00   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 11:03   ` Terje Bless
2002-04-20 17:27   ` Richard Stallman
     [not found]   ` <200204201727.g3KHRTg01417@aztec.santafe.edu>
2002-04-21  2:06     ` Brady Montz
     [not found]     ` <m2wuv1yfdj.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-21  6:48       ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-21  7:35         ` Brady Montz
2002-04-21 15:31           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]           ` <87vgal3w79.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-21 17:17             ` Brady Montz
2002-04-21 18:49             ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]             ` <m2d6wtx97q.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-21 19:09               ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-22  2:58               ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]               ` <87vgak30cw.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-22 16:54                 ` Brady Montz
     [not found]                 ` <m2elh7wu6m.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-22 19:40                   ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                   ` <7263-Mon22Apr2002224014+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-22 20:46                     ` Brady Montz
2002-04-23  4:03                       ` Stephen J. Turnbull
2002-04-23  6:31                       ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                       ` <87bscbysbm.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-23  6:41                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-04-23 16:21                         ` Brady Montz
     [not found]                         ` <m2r8l6v108.fsf@sandman.balestra.org>
2002-04-23 17:09                           ` Stephen J. Turnbull
     [not found]                           ` <878z7euysa.fsf@tleepslib.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp>
2002-04-23 18:20                             ` Brady Montz
2002-04-23 19:21                               ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]                               ` <7263-Tue23Apr2002222135+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-23 19:56                                 ` Brady Montz
2002-04-23 23:00                       ` Michael Toomim
2002-04-24  6:09                         ` Eli Zaretskii
     [not found]               ` <2950-Sun21Apr2002220958+0300-eliz@is.elta.co.il>
2002-04-22 16:56                 ` Brady Montz
2002-04-21  9:01       ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-21 20:21         ` Simon Josefsson
     [not found]         ` <ilusn5o950a.fsf@extundo.com>
2002-04-22  8:50           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-22  9:00             ` Miles Bader
     [not found]             ` <buoy9fg85ve.fsf@mcspd15.ucom.lsi.nec.co.jp>
2002-04-22 10:44               ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-04-22 11:12               ` Simon Josefsson
     [not found]               ` <rjk7r0ovw9.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2002-04-22 12:36                 ` Miles Bader
2002-04-22 22:36           ` Richard Stallman
     [not found] ` <rjk7r3zzk4.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk>
2002-04-19 16:27   ` Brady Montz
2002-04-19 16:55   ` Andy Piper
2002-04-20 17:27   ` Richard Stallman

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