* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation @ 2016-12-29 22:10 Quiliro 2017-01-02 21:11 ` Ludovic Courtès 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Quiliro @ 2016-12-29 22:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: 25296 It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that after that guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel. Any ideas of how to do this? -- Saludos, Quiliro ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2016-12-29 22:10 bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation Quiliro @ 2017-01-02 21:11 ` Ludovic Courtès [not found] ` <20170108041145.6d9a5cbc@riseup.net> 2018-01-14 13:34 ` bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation Mathieu Lirzin 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2017-01-02 21:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Quiliro; +Cc: 25296 Hello! Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: > It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all > necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for > the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write > and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I > know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that > after that > guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail > (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make > an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to > have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be > useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel. The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the ‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, like the rest of GNOME. I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by default though, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant with what GNOME provides, I think.) WDYT? Thanks for your feedback! Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <20170108041145.6d9a5cbc@riseup.net>]
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation [not found] ` <20170108041145.6d9a5cbc@riseup.net> @ 2017-01-08 10:16 ` Ludovic Courtès 2017-01-09 11:11 ` Ricardo Wurmus 2018-01-15 15:18 ` Manual (was: fully functional desktop installation) ng0 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2017-01-08 10:16 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Quiliro; +Cc: 25296 Hi Quiliro! Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: > On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 22:11:01 +0100 > ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote: [...] >> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which >> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. > > I don't find the email client. > The web browser will not reproduce videos. This is a bug that needs to be treated separately. Clearly Nautilus should be able to play videos. > I have no idea how to chat in Gnome. (Of course I will investigate.) There’s Pidgin, but maybe it’s not really part of GNOME. > What you say makes sense. But what users that cannot learn to install > need to work on their own matters is very important in order for them to > be able to advocate the free system. Perhaps we do not want to promote > the use of Flash or Microsoft Office formats. These issues are > critical. But they are not against the FSDGs. And the user must notice > we are able to offer those capabilities. We must always insist in > suggesting to use the libre alternatives. In this case, we should not > avoid including the ability to read those formats. I agree, but again, I think GNOME provides everything for these tasks. Also, at this point, the target audience of GuixSD is not “users that cannot learn to install”—if someone managed to install GuixSD, surely they’ll find out how to install LibreOffice. > I have also had problems with Mimetypes. Many files will not open > because the Gnome will not identify which program is appropriate. Sounds like a bug. Could you report all the details to bug-guix@gnu.org: how to reproduce, what you expected, and what you got? Thank you! Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2017-01-08 10:16 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2017-01-09 11:11 ` Ricardo Wurmus 2018-01-15 15:18 ` Manual (was: fully functional desktop installation) ng0 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ricardo Wurmus @ 2017-01-09 11:11 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: Quiliro, 25296 >> I have no idea how to chat in Gnome. (Of course I will investigate.) > > There’s Pidgin, but maybe it’s not really part of GNOME. The GNOME way is to use Empathy, which depends on the Telepathy framework: https://wiki.gnome.org/Apps/Empathy -- Ricardo GPG: BCA6 89B6 3655 3801 C3C6 2150 197A 5888 235F ACAC http://elephly.net ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Manual (was: fully functional desktop installation) 2017-01-08 10:16 ` Ludovic Courtès 2017-01-09 11:11 ` Ricardo Wurmus @ 2018-01-15 15:18 ` ng0 2018-01-15 15:35 ` Amirouche Boubekki 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: ng0 @ 2018-01-15 15:18 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: Quiliro, guix-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2918 bytes --] Ludovic Courtès transcribed 1.7K bytes: > Hi Quiliro! > > Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: > > > On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 22:11:01 +0100 > > ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote: > > [...] > > >> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which > >> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. > > > > I don't find the email client. > > The web browser will not reproduce videos. > > This is a bug that needs to be treated separately. Clearly Nautilus > should be able to play videos. I can confirm this for some file, I just had the opinion Nautilus wasn't very capable and didn't report it when I first noticed it. > > I have no idea how to chat in Gnome. (Of course I will investigate.) > > There’s Pidgin, but maybe it’s not really part of GNOME. > > > What you say makes sense. But what users that cannot learn to install > > need to work on their own matters is very important in order for them to > > be able to advocate the free system. Perhaps we do not want to promote > > the use of Flash or Microsoft Office formats. These issues are > > critical. But they are not against the FSDGs. And the user must notice > > we are able to offer those capabilities. We must always insist in > > suggesting to use the libre alternatives. In this case, we should not > > avoid including the ability to read those formats. > > I agree, but again, I think GNOME provides everything for these tasks. > Also, at this point, the target audience of GuixSD is not “users that > cannot learn to install”—if someone managed to install GuixSD, surely > they’ll find out how to install LibreOffice. In my opinion we could extend examples in the Manual. We already expect people to read the Manual, even if it's hard to digest for newcomers in some passages (different problem). To add an 'from 0 to full Desktop' walk through or just extension of the existing material with references to the appropriate sections would be good. Even if we don't expect people who are not willing to play around, break parts and play around with the system, we need clear examples. Even people who are experienced want some kind of help instead of high expertise expectation. People keep asking me obvious question that should be in the manual. Sometimes things which could be snippets in an example chapter. For example (home-directory (string-append "/home/" name)). Super obvious, I know. > > I have also had problems with Mimetypes. Many files will not open > > because the Gnome will not identify which program is appropriate. > > Sounds like a bug. Could you report all the details to > bug-guix@gnu.org: how to reproduce, what you expected, and what you got? > > Thank you! > > Ludo’. > > > > -- ng0 :: https://ea.n0.is A88C8ADD129828D7EAC02E52E22F9BBFEE348588 :: https://ea.n0.is/keys/ [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Manual (was: fully functional desktop installation) 2018-01-15 15:18 ` Manual (was: fully functional desktop installation) ng0 @ 2018-01-15 15:35 ` Amirouche Boubekki 2018-01-15 16:52 ` ng0 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Amirouche Boubekki @ 2018-01-15 15:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès, Quiliro, guix-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3312 bytes --] Does the manual want to avoid the fact that minimal knowledge of Scheme is required maybe we should add a small intro to guile or guix manual something maybe like my book called "a guile mind book" Le 15 janv. 2018 3:20 PM, "ng0" <ng0@n0.is> a écrit : > Ludovic Courtès transcribed 1.7K bytes: > > Hi Quiliro! > > > > Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: > > > > > On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 22:11:01 +0100 > > > ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote: > > > > [...] > > > > >> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which > > >> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. > > > > > > I don't find the email client. > > > The web browser will not reproduce videos. > > > > This is a bug that needs to be treated separately. Clearly Nautilus > > should be able to play videos. > > I can confirm this for some file, I just had the opinion Nautilus wasn't > very capable and didn't report it when I first noticed it. > > > > I have no idea how to chat in Gnome. (Of course I will investigate.) > > > > There’s Pidgin, but maybe it’s not really part of GNOME. > > > > > What you say makes sense. But what users that cannot learn to install > > > need to work on their own matters is very important in order for them > to > > > be able to advocate the free system. Perhaps we do not want to promote > > > the use of Flash or Microsoft Office formats. These issues are > > > critical. But they are not against the FSDGs. And the user must notice > > > we are able to offer those capabilities. We must always insist in > > > suggesting to use the libre alternatives. In this case, we should not > > > avoid including the ability to read those formats. > > > > I agree, but again, I think GNOME provides everything for these tasks. > > Also, at this point, the target audience of GuixSD is not “users that > > cannot learn to install”—if someone managed to install GuixSD, surely > > they’ll find out how to install LibreOffice. > > In my opinion we could extend examples in the Manual. > We already expect people to read the Manual, even if it's hard to > digest for newcomers in some passages (different problem). To add > an 'from 0 to full Desktop' walk through or just extension of the existing > material with references to the appropriate sections would be good. > > Even if we don't expect people who are not willing to play around, break > parts > and play around with the system, we need clear examples. Even people who > are > experienced want some kind of help instead of high expertise expectation. > > People keep asking me obvious question that should be in the manual. > Sometimes things which could be snippets in an example chapter. > For example (home-directory (string-append "/home/" name)). Super obvious, > I know. > > > > I have also had problems with Mimetypes. Many files will not open > > > because the Gnome will not identify which program is appropriate. > > > > Sounds like a bug. Could you report all the details to > > bug-guix@gnu.org: how to reproduce, what you expected, and what you got? > > > > Thank you! > > > > Ludo’. > > > > > > > > > > -- > ng0 :: https://ea.n0.is > A88C8ADD129828D7EAC02E52E22F9BBFEE348588 :: https://ea.n0.is/keys/ > [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4228 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* Re: Manual (was: fully functional desktop installation) 2018-01-15 15:35 ` Amirouche Boubekki @ 2018-01-15 16:52 ` ng0 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: ng0 @ 2018-01-15 16:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Amirouche Boubekki; +Cc: Quiliro, guix-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 4073 bytes --] Amirouche Boubekki transcribed 7.7K bytes: > Does the manual want to avoid the fact that minimal knowledge of Scheme is > required maybe we should add a small intro to guile or guix manual > something maybe like my book called "a guile mind book" So far the Guix Manual tried to just provide cross reference links where possible. We've had enough bugs (in other words: questions, misunderstandings,..) about the Manual to assume that we need something like that. The Manual is good, but we are far from free of criticism. So, yes, in my opinion we need this. And more like this, I have the growing need to start a rewrite proposal branch.. But this has to wait until I can spend time on it. > Le 15 janv. 2018 3:20 PM, "ng0" <ng0@n0.is> a écrit : > > > Ludovic Courtès transcribed 1.7K bytes: > > > Hi Quiliro! > > > > > > Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: > > > > > > > On Mon, 02 Jan 2017 22:11:01 +0100 > > > > ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) wrote: > > > > > > [...] > > > > > > >> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which > > > >> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. > > > > > > > > I don't find the email client. > > > > The web browser will not reproduce videos. > > > > > > This is a bug that needs to be treated separately. Clearly Nautilus > > > should be able to play videos. > > > > I can confirm this for some file, I just had the opinion Nautilus wasn't > > very capable and didn't report it when I first noticed it. > > > > > > I have no idea how to chat in Gnome. (Of course I will investigate.) > > > > > > There’s Pidgin, but maybe it’s not really part of GNOME. > > > > > > > What you say makes sense. But what users that cannot learn to install > > > > need to work on their own matters is very important in order for them > > to > > > > be able to advocate the free system. Perhaps we do not want to promote > > > > the use of Flash or Microsoft Office formats. These issues are > > > > critical. But they are not against the FSDGs. And the user must notice > > > > we are able to offer those capabilities. We must always insist in > > > > suggesting to use the libre alternatives. In this case, we should not > > > > avoid including the ability to read those formats. > > > > > > I agree, but again, I think GNOME provides everything for these tasks. > > > Also, at this point, the target audience of GuixSD is not “users that > > > cannot learn to install”—if someone managed to install GuixSD, surely > > > they’ll find out how to install LibreOffice. > > > > In my opinion we could extend examples in the Manual. > > We already expect people to read the Manual, even if it's hard to > > digest for newcomers in some passages (different problem). To add > > an 'from 0 to full Desktop' walk through or just extension of the existing > > material with references to the appropriate sections would be good. > > > > Even if we don't expect people who are not willing to play around, break > > parts > > and play around with the system, we need clear examples. Even people who > > are > > experienced want some kind of help instead of high expertise expectation. > > > > People keep asking me obvious question that should be in the manual. > > Sometimes things which could be snippets in an example chapter. > > For example (home-directory (string-append "/home/" name)). Super obvious, > > I know. > > > > > > I have also had problems with Mimetypes. Many files will not open > > > > because the Gnome will not identify which program is appropriate. > > > > > > Sounds like a bug. Could you report all the details to > > > bug-guix@gnu.org: how to reproduce, what you expected, and what you got? > > > > > > Thank you! > > > > > > Ludo’. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ng0 :: https://ea.n0.is > > A88C8ADD129828D7EAC02E52E22F9BBFEE348588 :: https://ea.n0.is/keys/ > > -- ng0 :: https://ea.n0.is A88C8ADD129828D7EAC02E52E22F9BBFEE348588 :: https://ea.n0.is/keys/ [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 833 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2017-01-02 21:11 ` Ludovic Courtès [not found] ` <20170108041145.6d9a5cbc@riseup.net> @ 2018-01-14 13:34 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2018-01-14 21:53 ` Ludovic Courtès 1 sibling, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Mathieu Lirzin @ 2018-01-14 13:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: 25296 ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: > Hello! > > Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: > >> It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all >> necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for >> the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write >> and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I >> know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that >> after that >> guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail >> (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make >> an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to >> have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be >> useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel. > > The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which > provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. > > Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the > ‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, like > the rest of GNOME. > > I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by default > though, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant with > what GNOME provides, I think.) I think your remark applies to pidgin and clawsmail but not to Libreoffice and Icecat (Firefox) which are commonly installed OOTB by mainstream distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora) along with the GNOME desktop. -- Mathieu Lirzin GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-14 13:34 ` bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation Mathieu Lirzin @ 2018-01-14 21:53 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-15 13:26 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2018-01-17 9:56 ` Oleg Pykhalov 0 siblings, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-14 21:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mathieu Lirzin; +Cc: 25296 Hi, Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis: > ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: > >> Hello! >> >> Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: >> >>> It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all >>> necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for >>> the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write >>> and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I >>> know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that >>> after that >>> guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail >>> (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make >>> an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to >>> have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be >>> useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel. >> >> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which >> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. >> >> Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the >> ‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, like >> the rest of GNOME. >> >> I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by default >> though, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant with >> what GNOME provides, I think.) > > I think your remark applies to pidgin and clawsmail but not to > Libreoffice and Icecat (Firefox) which are commonly installed OOTB by > mainstream distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora) along with the GNOME > desktop. I’m not sure what we could do, though. Should the desktop example include a comment like “Uncomment the following lines to add LibreOffice & co.”? This is something that the ncurses interface should make more discoverable. Thanks, Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-14 21:53 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-15 13:26 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2018-01-15 13:49 ` myglc2 2018-01-16 10:31 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-17 9:56 ` Oleg Pykhalov 1 sibling, 2 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Mathieu Lirzin @ 2018-01-15 13:26 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: 25296 Hello, ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: > Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis: > >> ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: >> >>> Quiliro <quiliro@riseup.net> skribis: >>> >>>> It would be nice to create a desktop.scm file that contains all >>>> necessary packages to have a fully functional desktop installation for >>>> the end user. It is for that user that only uses the machine to write >>>> and read emails, create and read text documents and spreadsheets too. I >>>> know the current desktop.scm contain some of those features and that >>>> after that >>>> guix package --install pidgin libreoffice icecat clawsmail >>>> (and so) can provide the necessary packages. But I would like to make >>>> an installation that is just as trisquel is. It is not necessary to >>>> have the same configuration or the same packages. But it would be >>>> useful to have it as easy to just use as is Trisquel. >>> >>> The desktop example contains all of GNOME, when choosing GNOME, which >>> provides an email client, Web browser, and lots of other things. >>> >>> Additional packages like those you mention could be added to the >>> ‘packages’ field, in which case they will be installed globally, like >>> the rest of GNOME. >>> >>> I wouldn’t recommend adding those 4 packages you mention by default >>> though, because it’s really a matter of choice (and it’s redundant with >>> what GNOME provides, I think.) >> >> I think your remark applies to pidgin and clawsmail but not to >> Libreoffice and Icecat (Firefox) which are commonly installed OOTB by >> mainstream distros (Debian, Ubuntu, Fedora) along with the GNOME >> desktop. > > I’m not sure what we could do, though. Should the desktop example > include a comment like “Uncomment the following lines to add LibreOffice > & co.”? IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case. Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop with default applications for common usages. This would consist in adding ‘libreoffice’ and replacing ‘epiphany’ with ‘icecat’ in the ‘gnome’ package. Additionally a ‘gnome-core’ package (or ‘gnome-minimal’ which seems to be the name convention chosen by Guix) could be created with the minimal set of packages required to have a working GNOME desktop, for OCD people that don't like having unused packages installed. > This is something that the ncurses interface should make more > discoverable. That could be a solution. However even if the current target audience of Guix(SD) are tinkerer who may like options, I don't think this approach scales well to a broader audience. Thanks. -- Mathieu Lirzin GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-15 13:26 ` Mathieu Lirzin @ 2018-01-15 13:49 ` myglc2 2018-01-16 10:31 ` Ludovic Courtès 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: myglc2 @ 2018-01-15 13:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mathieu Lirzin; +Cc: 25296 On 01/15/2018 at 14:26 Mathieu Lirzin writes: [...] > IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case. > Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop with > default applications for common usages. +1 Benefit: Helps "less-hackerly" users get started. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-15 13:26 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2018-01-15 13:49 ` myglc2 @ 2018-01-16 10:31 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 11:09 ` Danny Milosavljevic ` (2 more replies) 1 sibling, 3 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-16 10:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Mathieu Lirzin; +Cc: 25296 Hi, Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis: > IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case. > Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop with > default applications for common usages. > > This would consist in adding ‘libreoffice’ and replacing ‘epiphany’ with > ‘icecat’ in the ‘gnome’ package. Additionally a ‘gnome-core’ package > (or ‘gnome-minimal’ which seems to be the name convention chosen by > Guix) could be created with the minimal set of packages required to have > a working GNOME desktop, for OCD people that don't like having unused > packages installed. Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them with “guix package -i”? Admittedly this is a very subjective issue. Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-16 10:31 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-16 11:09 ` Danny Milosavljevic 2018-01-16 13:59 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 11:34 ` Konrad Hinsen 2018-01-16 15:40 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Danny Milosavljevic @ 2018-01-16 11:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: 25296, Mathieu Lirzin Hi, > Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience > (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them > with “guix package -i”? I think one of the nice features of Guix is that the user can install packages on their own. Other distributions leave the decision of which packages to install up to the administrator (a separate person in companies). I work in a very large company where often some simple stuff is missing on servers and admins will not install it for fear of fucking up some unrelated already-installed package (understandable since all the dependencies are dynamic in Solaris and applications will just pick up whatever is lying around in the global namespace). Long story short, I think it's a good thing that the user has his own profile which isn't magically updated and doesn't magically pick up things not in the user profile - except when it's already in the store bitwise-identical. That way, if he needs some application for work it will not randomly break and he can be sure that it will do what it did yesterday. If he wants to update, he updates. Otherwise not. His choice. So long story short, I myself prefer having no applications in the system profile and the user installing all (business-relevant) applications themselves. It gives control to the user. (my "packages" field is: (packages (cons* nss-certs ;for HTTPS access font-adobe100dpi font-adobe75dpi font-bitstream-vera font-dejavu font-gnu-freefont-ttf font-gnu-unifont font-liberation font-ubuntu adwaita-icon-theme %base-packages)) ; xterm is there by default. And the ones that are still in there bother me :) ) As for libreoffice and other large packages, maybe I'm old-fashioned, but huge packages waste disk space and provide an attack surface for exploits - and maybe no regular user uses it. That said, I've installed it :P I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project). Users who like a minimal system can always use lightweight-desktop.tmpl or even bare-bones.tmpl. And I think it's important to mention the approximate space requirements for desktop.tmpl in the manual (for partitioning). ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-16 11:09 ` Danny Milosavljevic @ 2018-01-16 13:59 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-17 7:09 ` Chris Marusich 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-16 13:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Danny Milosavljevic; +Cc: 25296, Mathieu Lirzin Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@scratchpost.org> skribis: >> Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience >> (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them >> with “guix package -i”? [...] > Long story short, I think it's a good thing that the user has his own profile which isn't magically updated and doesn't magically pick up things not in the user profile - except when it's already in the store bitwise-identical. That way, if he needs some application for work it will not randomly break and he can be sure that it will do what it did yesterday. If he wants to update, he updates. Otherwise not. His choice. Agreed, though in this case (GNOME), we’re pretty much talking about single-user machines. > I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project). OK, why not. There’s still the issue that it will make download times and disk size requirements longer (a problem we should fix, but this won’t happen overnight.) Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-16 13:59 ` Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-17 7:09 ` Chris Marusich 2018-01-17 8:48 ` Ludovic Courtès 0 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Chris Marusich @ 2018-01-17 7:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: Mathieu Lirzin, 25296 [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 852 bytes --] ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: > Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@scratchpost.org> skribis: > >> I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project). > > OK, why not. There’s still the issue that it will make download times > and disk size requirements longer (a problem we should fix, but this > won’t happen overnight.) While I think it's fine to include this in the example desktop configuration file, I don't see why we couldn't have a few example configuration files for various use cases. One of those use cases could mimic what other distros normally include, like LibreOffice etc, and one of those could be a more minimal desktop environment. Does it add a maintenance burden to have multiple example desktop configuration files? -- Chris [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-17 7:09 ` Chris Marusich @ 2018-01-17 8:48 ` Ludovic Courtès 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-17 8:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Chris Marusich; +Cc: Mathieu Lirzin, 25296 Chris Marusich <cmmarusich@gmail.com> skribis: > ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: > >> Danny Milosavljevic <dannym@scratchpost.org> skribis: >> >>> I'd vote for adding libreoffice and icecat to desktop.tmpl and not to gnome (since they are not part of the GNOME project). >> >> OK, why not. There’s still the issue that it will make download times >> and disk size requirements longer (a problem we should fix, but this >> won’t happen overnight.) > > While I think it's fine to include this in the example desktop > configuration file, I don't see why we couldn't have a few example > configuration files for various use cases. One of those use cases could > mimic what other distros normally include, like LibreOffice etc, and one > of those could be a more minimal desktop environment. Does it add a > maintenance burden to have multiple example desktop configuration files? Not much, though we’d have to make sure they still work. The only difference in this case would be the ‘packages’ field, which, I was hoping, didn’t warrant a separate example. Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-16 10:31 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 11:09 ` Danny Milosavljevic @ 2018-01-16 11:34 ` Konrad Hinsen 2018-01-16 13:57 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 15:40 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2 siblings, 1 reply; 20+ messages in thread From: Konrad Hinsen @ 2018-01-16 11:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès, Mathieu Lirzin; +Cc: 25296 Hi, > Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience > (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them > with “guix package -i”? > > Admittedly this is a very subjective issue. How about organizing Guix in a layered way, with the core distribution containing narrow-purpose packages (mostly one piece of software), and another layer (in a distinct module, perhaps with a distinct naming convention) containing collections of software that works well together or is useful for a specific application domain? I see other use cases than just desktop stuff. The main rationale for distinct layers is that assembling software at different levels requires different competences and different ways of documenting the assemblies. In the long run, I'd expect different people to be in charge of each layer. Konrad. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-16 11:34 ` Konrad Hinsen @ 2018-01-16 13:57 ` Ludovic Courtès 0 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Ludovic Courtès @ 2018-01-16 13:57 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Konrad Hinsen; +Cc: 25296, Mathieu Lirzin Hi Konrad, Konrad Hinsen <konrad.hinsen@fastmail.net> skribis: >> Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience >> (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them >> with “guix package -i”? >> >> Admittedly this is a very subjective issue. > > How about organizing Guix in a layered way, with the core distribution > containing narrow-purpose packages (mostly one piece of software), and > another layer (in a distinct module, perhaps with a distinct naming > convention) containing collections of software that works well > together or is useful for a specific application domain? I see other > use cases than just desktop stuff. In GuixSD, that’s more or less what happens with ‘gnome-service-type’ and ‘xfce-service-type’, for example. (I’m not sure how that could work at the Guix level, nor whether this is necessary.) Ludo’. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-16 10:31 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 11:09 ` Danny Milosavljevic 2018-01-16 11:34 ` Konrad Hinsen @ 2018-01-16 15:40 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2 siblings, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Mathieu Lirzin @ 2018-01-16 15:40 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: 25296 Hi, ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: > Mathieu Lirzin <mthl@gnu.org> skribis: > >> IMHO Guix should mimic what Debian is doing in this particular case. >> Meaning having desktop packages that contain a “full” desktop with >> default applications for common usages. >> >> This would consist in adding ‘libreoffice’ and replacing ‘epiphany’ with >> ‘icecat’ in the ‘gnome’ package. Additionally a ‘gnome-core’ package >> (or ‘gnome-minimal’ which seems to be the name convention chosen by >> Guix) could be created with the minimal set of packages required to have >> a working GNOME desktop, for OCD people that don't like having unused >> packages installed. > > Hmm, OK. Do you think it’s too much to ask, given the current audience > (tinkerers), to add those packages to their config, or to install them > with “guix package -i”? Definitely not, it is even better for tinkerers to not have those “bloated” bundles/meta-packages full of defaults they don't like. :-) -- Mathieu Lirzin GPG: F2A3 8D7E EB2B 6640 5761 070D 0ADE E100 9460 4D37 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
* bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation 2018-01-14 21:53 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-15 13:26 ` Mathieu Lirzin @ 2018-01-17 9:56 ` Oleg Pykhalov 1 sibling, 0 replies; 20+ messages in thread From: Oleg Pykhalov @ 2018-01-17 9:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ludovic Courtès; +Cc: 25296, Mathieu Lirzin [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1138 bytes --] Hello, ludo@gnu.org (Ludovic Courtès) writes: [...] > I’m not sure what we could do, though. Should the desktop example > include a comment like “Uncomment the following lines to add LibreOffice > & co.”? Agree. Maybe we could provide a hint like: gnu/system/examples/desktop.tmpl (packages (cons* nss-certs ;for HTTPS access gvfs ;for user mounts ;; Following packages recommended to be installed ;; per-user with `guix package -i PACKAGE'. ;; Otherwise uncomment them to install globally. ;; ;; icecat ;GNU version of the Firefox browser ;; libreoffice ;office suite ;; Basic administrator tasks %base-packages)) > This is something that the ncurses interface should make more > discoverable. When I saw a lightweight-desktop template for the first time, there was a good ad about ratpoison window manager which I didn't know before. This is a really good way to promote reasonable software. :-) Oleg. [-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 832 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 20+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2018-01-17 9:57 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 20+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2016-12-29 22:10 bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation Quiliro 2017-01-02 21:11 ` Ludovic Courtès [not found] ` <20170108041145.6d9a5cbc@riseup.net> 2017-01-08 10:16 ` Ludovic Courtès 2017-01-09 11:11 ` Ricardo Wurmus 2018-01-15 15:18 ` Manual (was: fully functional desktop installation) ng0 2018-01-15 15:35 ` Amirouche Boubekki 2018-01-15 16:52 ` ng0 2018-01-14 13:34 ` bug#25296: fully functional desktop installation Mathieu Lirzin 2018-01-14 21:53 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-15 13:26 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2018-01-15 13:49 ` myglc2 2018-01-16 10:31 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 11:09 ` Danny Milosavljevic 2018-01-16 13:59 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-17 7:09 ` Chris Marusich 2018-01-17 8:48 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 11:34 ` Konrad Hinsen 2018-01-16 13:57 ` Ludovic Courtès 2018-01-16 15:40 ` Mathieu Lirzin 2018-01-17 9:56 ` Oleg Pykhalov
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