* RFI: Guix XMPP service. @ 2023-12-08 17:22 MSavoritias 2023-12-08 18:43 ` Vivien Kraus 2023-12-10 3:53 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. 0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: MSavoritias @ 2023-12-08 17:22 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guix-devel Hello o/ I would like to do a formal proposal to make an official Guix XMPP instance. Background: I asked a couple of days ago if it would be possible to have an XMPP room listed on the Guix site next to the IRC. I also asked in IRC and shared it on ActivityPub. The response was very enthusiastic, thank you everyone for joining and spreading the message. ^^ It was said though that listing it on the website would make it official, plus some other concerns around log retention. Hence this proposal here. :) For those that do not know XMPP is a protocol for many things, one of them being messaging. It has been active for more than 20 years now and is still being developed. Who am I: I have been around Guix for a bit in IRC and the email lists. I also do some small advocacy for Guix in ActivityPub federation (Mastodon, Peertube, etc.). I am maintaining the infrastructure for https://joinjabber.org/ which is moving to Guix currently -> https://codeberg.org/joinjabber/Infra :) and I am a member of XSF. I also do a lot of advocacy for xmpp in activitypub and handle the activitypub presence of joinjabber. -> @joinjabber@indieweb.social What is being proposed: I propose to host an xmpp instance with a room/or some rooms under the guix domain. Something like xmpp.guix.gnu.org This can be done in one of two ways: 1. There is a service here -> https://cheogram.com/freedomware-muc/ hosted by https://soprani.ca/ We can just setup our DNS to point to the service and sopranica will take care of the xmpp server. I have talked with them and they do have unlimited retention of past messages plus they can also setup a log viewing thing just like IRC has. Its a sustainable free software business and the hosting will be free. :) 2. We can self host our own prosody instance. It has minimal maintenance, and its very lightweight. I can maintain the instance as it is done for joinjabber and we already have a guix service for prosody. Why / What does Guix get from this: Right now guix has email lists and IRC. What XMPP can give on top of that is: 1. XMPP is more approachable for people used to Matrix or Discord (for multiple reasons). While still being very lightweight and free software. 2. It is federated and easily self hosted. Which makes Guix more independent in case something like Freenode ever happens to Libera chat or in case people want to have their own server to connect to the guix rooms. Personally I am in favor of option 1. We can host it in the cheogram service to test things out and if we need to we can self host it later. Since It will point to the same domain it shouldn't be a problem. All we would need to do is change where our DNS points to and that's it. MSavoritias ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-08 17:22 RFI: Guix XMPP service MSavoritias @ 2023-12-08 18:43 ` Vivien Kraus 2023-12-08 18:56 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-10 3:53 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Vivien Kraus @ 2023-12-08 18:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: MSavoritias, guix-devel Hello Guix! Le vendredi 08 décembre 2023 à 19:22 +0200, MSavoritias a écrit : > I propose to host an xmpp instance with a room/or some rooms under > the > guix domain. Something like xmpp.guix.gnu.org Are there options for guests? I don’t know how XMPP or Prosody or cheogram.com may handle this, but the way I imagine it, we could have an array of guest accounts and reserve one for anyone that would ask for it, for something like a week. The guest accounts need not communicate with another server, so we wouldn’t relay spam. Maybe there’s something more convenient or more standard though. What do you think? Best regards, Vivien ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-08 18:43 ` Vivien Kraus @ 2023-12-08 18:56 ` MSavoritias 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: MSavoritias @ 2023-12-08 18:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Vivien Kraus, guix-devel On 12/8/23 20:43, Vivien Kraus wrote: > Hello Guix! > > Le vendredi 08 décembre 2023 à 19:22 +0200, MSavoritias a écrit : >> I propose to host an xmpp instance with a room/or some rooms under >> the >> guix domain. Something like xmpp.guix.gnu.org > Are there options for guests? > > I don’t know how XMPP or Prosody or cheogram.com may handle this, but > the way I imagine it, we could have an array of guest accounts and > reserve one for anyone that would ask for it, for something like a > week. The guest accounts need not communicate with another server, so > we wouldn’t relay spam. > > Maybe there’s something more convenient or more standard though. What > do you think? > > Best regards, > > Vivien yes it does. from the page I linked it says: Once configuration is complete, your chatroom will be accessible to anyone on the XMPP federation, as well as on the web via anonymous.cheogram.com <https://anonymous.cheogram.com/>. You basically enter the address of the group chat you want and a nickname and you chat without an account. but only in the rooms in the guix server of course. same as IRC. MSavoritias ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-08 17:22 RFI: Guix XMPP service MSavoritias 2023-12-08 18:43 ` Vivien Kraus @ 2023-12-10 3:53 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. 2023-12-10 7:27 ` MSavoritias 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. @ 2023-12-10 3:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: MSavoritias, guix-devel Hi, On Fri, Dec 08 2023, MSavoritias wrote: > 2. We can self host our own prosody instance. I host my own Prosody instance (mostly to talk to Soprani). [1][2] I recommend the project host its own, as well. The server is very lightweight. Unfortunately, my system's uptime history is not suitable for a project instance. For DNS, I'd be happy to offer help.juix.org, but an official address is probably better. XMPP is great. Thanks for the initiative! Kind regards Felix [1] https://codeberg.org/lechner/system-config/src/commit/b566b08a982a12f896cd6e6666f7849dbac0ce2e/host/wallace-server/operating-system.scm#L1195-L1200 [2] Message retention in my setup may only be thirty days. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-10 3:53 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. @ 2023-12-10 7:27 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-10 14:43 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: MSavoritias @ 2023-12-10 7:27 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Felix Lechner, guix-devel On 12/10/23 05:53, Felix Lechner wrote: > Hi, > > On Fri, Dec 08 2023, MSavoritias wrote: > >> 2. We can self host our own prosody instance. > I host my own Prosody instance (mostly to talk to Soprani). [1][2] I > recommend the project host its own, as well. Yeah the consensus so far seems to be to host our own. It is pretty easy as you said so it shouldn't be a problem for me to maintain it. Do you think it would be ok to use a VPS? Or do we want a physical server at somebody's home? > The server is very lightweight. Unfortunately, my system's uptime > history is not suitable for a project instance. > > For DNS, I'd be happy to offer help.juix.org, but an official address is > probably better. Yeah under the guix domain would be best. We also have the guix.info of the foundation but idk how good it would be to be under that. > XMPP is great. Thanks for the initiative! Yw ^^ Was missing an XMPP instance and since i can step up I did :) > Kind regards > Felix > > [1] https://codeberg.org/lechner/system-config/src/commit/b566b08a982a12f896cd6e6666f7849dbac0ce2e/host/wallace-server/operating-system.scm#L1195-L1200 > [2] Message retention in my setup may only be thirty days. MSavoritias ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-10 7:27 ` MSavoritias @ 2023-12-10 14:43 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. 2023-12-10 15:45 ` MSavoritias 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. @ 2023-12-10 14:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: MSavoritias, guix-devel Hi MSavoritias, On Sun, Dec 10 2023, MSavoritias wrote: > Do you think it would be ok to use a VPS? Or do we want a physical > server at somebody's home? It's a community question. Everyone knows about IRC, and it works well. I'm not sure there is a "we want" for XMPP, even though the protocol is superior. There is also a trust issue. For acceptance, we need bridging. For bridging, we need policing. And for policing, we need people with time. Libera.chat has great volunteers that have a long track record in maintaining a service that people rely upon. A group of people would have to step up for XMPP here. Kind regards Felix ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-10 14:43 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. @ 2023-12-10 15:45 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-10 15:56 ` Vivien Kraus 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: MSavoritias @ 2023-12-10 15:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Felix Lechner, guix-devel On 12/10/23 16:43, Felix Lechner wrote: > Hi MSavoritias, > > On Sun, Dec 10 2023, MSavoritias wrote: > >> Do you think it would be ok to use a VPS? Or do we want a physical >> server at somebody's home? > It's a community question. Everyone knows about IRC, and it works > well. I'm not sure there is a "we want" for XMPP, even though the > protocol is superior. "We want" was in the context of what would be acceptable as hosting so that we can have the room under the same domain as guix. The past few days has given me an indication that there is a good amount of people that want something else than IRC and email. > > There is also a trust issue. For acceptance, we need bridging. For > bridging, we need policing. And for policing, we need people with > time. That's a good question yeah. Whether we want bridging that is. Personally I am leaning that we don't. Because bridging can ruin the experience of people that use XMPP. But I can see it either way. Regarding moderation its not a problem to find moderators for the room. Add like 5-10 of them so that we always have somebody online. I have been running XMPP for the past two years like this. > Libera.chat has great volunteers that have a long track record in > maintaining a service that people rely upon. A group of people would > have to step up for XMPP here. I agree. Hopefully this thread will encourage some people that there is a chance we have an XMPP instance :D And we (the people doing/wanting the xmpp instance) can get some permission to set it up under a guix domain. MSavoritias > > Kind regards > Felix ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-10 15:45 ` MSavoritias @ 2023-12-10 15:56 ` Vivien Kraus 2023-12-10 16:04 ` MSavoritias 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Vivien Kraus @ 2023-12-10 15:56 UTC (permalink / raw) To: MSavoritias, Felix Lechner, guix-devel Le dimanche 10 décembre 2023 à 17:45 +0200, MSavoritias a écrit : > > There is also a trust issue. For acceptance, we need bridging. For > > bridging, we need policing. And for policing, we need people with > > time. > > That's a good question yeah. Whether we want bridging that is. > Personally I am leaning that we don't. > > Because bridging can ruin the experience of people that use XMPP. But > I > can see it either way. Maybe we could do something a little smarter, like having sneek deliver messages in both IRC and XMPP. Vivien ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-10 15:56 ` Vivien Kraus @ 2023-12-10 16:04 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-11 6:53 ` Ada Stevenson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: MSavoritias @ 2023-12-10 16:04 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Vivien Kraus, Felix Lechner, guix-devel On 12/10/23 17:56, Vivien Kraus wrote: > Le dimanche 10 décembre 2023 à 17:45 +0200, MSavoritias a écrit : >>> There is also a trust issue. For acceptance, we need bridging. For >>> bridging, we need policing. And for policing, we need people with >>> time. >> That's a good question yeah. Whether we want bridging that is. >> Personally I am leaning that we don't. >> >> Because bridging can ruin the experience of people that use XMPP. But >> I >> can see it either way. > Maybe we could do something a little smarter, like having sneek deliver > messages in both IRC and XMPP. > > Vivien There are mirroring ways yeah. That would be a better solution. Because there is biboumi but it basically just creates an IRC room in XMPP. Also sneek should filter stuff probably. Because xmpp allows pictures and long messages and such. So it shouldn't mirror everything as is. I don't know how possible it is though. Maybe some custom setup of something. That said I do have my doubts whether this is more trouble than its worth personally. Given that IRC and XMPP are two very different protocols that are probably gonna attract a different community. MSavoritias ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. 2023-12-10 16:04 ` MSavoritias @ 2023-12-11 6:53 ` Ada Stevenson 2023-12-13 19:49 ` RFI: Guix XMPP service. paid service? jbranso 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Ada Stevenson @ 2023-12-11 6:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: MSavoritias, Vivien Kraus, Felix Lechner, guix-devel Hi, On 12/10/23 4:04 PM, MSavoritias wrote: > > On 12/10/23 17:56, Vivien Kraus wrote: >> Le dimanche 10 décembre 2023 à 17:45 +0200, MSavoritias a écrit : >>>> There is also a trust issue. For acceptance, we need bridging. For >>>> bridging, we need policing. And for policing, we need people with >>>> time. I am of the opinion that bridging would be a bad idea. The differences between IRC and XMPP are significant enough that bringing would probably be more disruptive than conducive to acceptance. A better approach would to simply have a separate IRC and XMPP channel. If people end up preferring XMPP, more people will simply elect to use it. In any project eventually the main communication channels tend to split up into smaller groups once they get to a certain size anyway for a number of reasons. This doesn't stop these other spaces from being 'accepted', and if we have the XMPP channel become official, I think this is acceptance enough. >>> That's a good question yeah. Whether we want bridging that is. >>> Personally I am leaning that we don't. >>> >>> Because bridging can ruin the experience of people that use XMPP. But >>> I >>> can see it either way. >> Maybe we could do something a little smarter, like having sneek deliver >> messages in both IRC and XMPP. >> >> Vivien > > There are mirroring ways yeah. That would be a better solution. > > Because there is biboumi but it basically just creates an IRC room in > XMPP. > > > Also sneek should filter stuff probably. Because xmpp allows pictures > and long messages and such. > > So it shouldn't mirror everything as is. I don't know how possible it > is though. Maybe some custom setup of something. > > > That said I do have my doubts whether this is more trouble than its > worth personally. > > Given that IRC and XMPP are two very different protocols that are > probably gonna attract a different community. Agreed. Specifically, mobile XMPP clients work far, far better than their IRC counterparts out of the box. I think we'd see a lot of people come to the XMPP server due to it's great mobile accessibility. In short, I think we should host our own XMPP server (maybe a VPS for uptime purposes? With media uploads and message logs, storage would be much more of a factor to consider compared to IRC) under the guix.gnu.org domain name and list it on the website. I think once we get to that stage, investigating how to keep track of message logs (perhaps mirroring logs to logs.guix.gnu.org, perhaps under a separate page to the IRC logs) will be vital in moderation efforts. Bridging would cause more problems and potentially solve a problem that we shouldn't want to solve (having one unified space). > > > MSavoritias > Ada (adanska) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. paid service? 2023-12-11 6:53 ` Ada Stevenson @ 2023-12-13 19:49 ` jbranso 2023-12-14 7:36 ` Ricardo Wurmus 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: jbranso @ 2023-12-13 19:49 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ada Stevenson, MSavoritias, Vivien Kraus, Felix Lechner, guix-devel I would like to pay $5 a month to have an xmpp account coolawesomeusername@guix.gnu.org Are there other interested parties? It might be a possible way to generate $$ to continue developing guix. We could even partner with JMP.chat. My two cents, Joshua www.gnucode.me ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. paid service? 2023-12-13 19:49 ` RFI: Guix XMPP service. paid service? jbranso @ 2023-12-14 7:36 ` Ricardo Wurmus 2023-12-14 8:28 ` Ada Stevenson 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Ricardo Wurmus @ 2023-12-14 7:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: jbranso; +Cc: Ada Stevenson, MSavoritias, Vivien Kraus, Felix Lechner, guix-devel jbranso@dismail.de writes: > I would like to pay $5 a month to have an xmpp account coolawesomeusername@guix.gnu.org > > Are there other interested parties? It might be a possible way to generate $$ to continue developing guix. I’d rather not commercialize stuff like this, especially not for project communication. I wouldn’t want our servers to cache image, video, and audio uploads by “coolawesomeusername” that aren’t related to discussing Guix. Nor would I want to give the impression that “coolawesomeusername”’s activities are in any way endorsed by guix.gnu.org. We don’t ache for $5 a month, and giving away autonomy over the name and what it is associated with is worth far more than a trickle of $5. In my personal opinion (as an experienced curmudgeon) I think that setting things up for commercialization is to invite unspeakable dread and rot. -- Ricardo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: RFI: Guix XMPP service. paid service? 2023-12-14 7:36 ` Ricardo Wurmus @ 2023-12-14 8:28 ` Ada Stevenson 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Ada Stevenson @ 2023-12-14 8:28 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Ricardo Wurmus, jbranso Cc: MSavoritias, Vivien Kraus, Felix Lechner, guix-devel Hi, On 12/14/23 7:36 AM, Ricardo Wurmus wrote: > jbranso@dismail.de writes: > >> I would like to pay $5 a month to have an xmpp account coolawesomeusername@guix.gnu.org >> >> Are there other interested parties? It might be a possible way to generate $$ to continue developing guix. > I’d rather not commercialize stuff like this, especially not for project > communication. I wouldn’t want our servers to cache image, > video, and audio uploads by “coolawesomeusername” that aren’t related to > discussing Guix. Nor would I want to give the impression that > “coolawesomeusername”’s activities are in any way endorsed by > guix.gnu.org. We don’t ache for $5 a month, and giving away autonomy > over the name and what it is associated with is worth far more than a > trickle of $5. > > In my personal opinion (as an experienced curmudgeon) I think that > setting things up for commercialization is to invite unspeakable dread > and rot. Agreed. Accounts with an official domain like 'guix.gnu.org' should be left for very special cases, such as admin accounts or special server infrastructure. Upkeeping a XMPP server that caches this data would be a little more expensive than usual, but if you use Guix often and want to support the project you should very well just donate. (As a digression, I do believe that we should promote the link to donate to the project a little bit more, perhaps in the IRC and XMPP banners?) Anyway, hosting a server should be pretty cost efficient. A few terabytes would go a long way, and you wouldn't need that much compute speed either. An XMPP server would be the least of our worries expenditure-wise (we still have to decide whats happening with qa.guix and data.guix (!!!!!)) Thanks, Ada (adanska) ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2023-12-14 8:29 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2023-12-08 17:22 RFI: Guix XMPP service MSavoritias 2023-12-08 18:43 ` Vivien Kraus 2023-12-08 18:56 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-10 3:53 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. 2023-12-10 7:27 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-10 14:43 ` Felix Lechner via Development of GNU Guix and the GNU System distribution. 2023-12-10 15:45 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-10 15:56 ` Vivien Kraus 2023-12-10 16:04 ` MSavoritias 2023-12-11 6:53 ` Ada Stevenson 2023-12-13 19:49 ` RFI: Guix XMPP service. paid service? jbranso 2023-12-14 7:36 ` Ricardo Wurmus 2023-12-14 8:28 ` Ada Stevenson
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