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From: Bob Newell <bobnewell@bobnewell.net>
To: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again.
Date: Sun, 27 Sep 2020 07:31:45 -1000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <s6jzh5bceim.fsf@emailmessageidheader.nil> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> (Jean Louis's message of "Sat, 26 Sep 2020 19:30:08 +0300")


In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs
beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say
right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience
is a worthy goal.

It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users
learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know
that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first
from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing
and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial
and error.

Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did
I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it
cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could,
and was already, doing for me.

Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of
learning?  No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the
thing.

We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a
very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such
tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser
tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in
lesser amounts.)

While we can and should do all we can to make the road
smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely
different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other
"help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's
face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy."

Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not
sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the
past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a
certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or
liver and onions.

Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started
with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line
information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code
samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks
politely. 

But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a
"Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist
after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For
Beginners"?

Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything
else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant
gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice.

-- 
Bob Newell
Honolulu, Hawai`i

- Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB



  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-09-27 17:31 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 292+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-09-26 13:38 How to make Emacs popular again James Lu
2020-09-26 13:47 ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-09-26 13:50   ` James Lu
2020-09-26 13:59 ` Philip K.
2020-09-26 14:53   ` Ergus
2020-09-26 16:59     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 18:26     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-27  2:41       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 13:16         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28  3:45           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28 23:29             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28 23:51               ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-09-30  4:37                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-30  5:26                   ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-10-02  3:45                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  4:43                       ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-09-30 10:03                   ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01  4:14                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01  7:41                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-01  8:11                       ` Philip K.
2020-10-02  3:52                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 16:02                           ` dict - " Jean Louis
2020-10-03  2:56                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03  7:47                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-10  3:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03  9:00                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10  3:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:21                       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01  4:14                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:22                       ` Jean Louis
2020-09-30 13:59                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01  4:13                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 13:07                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 14:39                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:53                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 15:11                           ` tomas
2020-10-01 16:15                             ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:30                               ` tomas
2020-10-02  3:53                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:46                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-10-01 16:21                           ` Jean Louis
2020-10-02  3:52                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  7:08                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-02 10:11                               ` Sv: " arthur miller
2020-10-02 16:13                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-02 16:18                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-02 16:33                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-10-03  7:26                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  3:45                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  7:31                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10  3:53                                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-10  7:24                                           ` Tomas Hlavaty
2020-10-10  7:52                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10 12:22                                               ` Tomas Hlavaty
2020-10-04  8:56                                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04  3:38                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 16:07                             ` Jean Louis
2020-10-03  2:56                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03  8:28                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:52                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-02  3:52                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  3:52                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  7:07                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  3:38                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  6:57                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  9:02                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04  9:06                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  3:14                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-05  5:54                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-06  2:34                                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  8:25                               ` Dictionaries better be offline - " Jean Louis
2020-10-04  3:38                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  7:03                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 10:07                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 10:52                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 13:54                                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 14:05                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  3:12                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-10  3:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-11  5:37                                   ` How to make Emacs popular again: Use monospaced fonts less Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11  6:28                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11  6:35                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11  7:00                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 10:54                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 11:28                                             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 13:58                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 22:21                                                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-12 16:49                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13  0:38                                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13 14:40                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14  4:03                                                         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 14:54                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 17:07                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 17:39                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 22:53                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 13:57                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:21                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 14:28                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:48                                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 14:52                                                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 15:00                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 16:25                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 16:50                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 18:31                                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 18:49                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15  6:51                                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 12:26                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15  6:48                                                             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 14:02                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:07                                                                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 14:24                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-16  5:06                                                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 13:56                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 22:14                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 23:39                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-12 16:46                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13  0:35                                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13 14:39                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14  4:01                                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 14:49                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 13:21                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 14:02                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 14:35                                     ` Teemu Likonen
2020-10-11 15:21                                     ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-11 18:29                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 18:58                                         ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-11 19:41                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 19:42                                         ` Drew Adams
2020-10-11 19:56                                         ` Stephen Berman
2020-10-11 21:09                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 22:23                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 22:50                                             ` Stephen Berman
2020-12-02 21:06                                             ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-02 22:33                                               ` Stephen Berman
2020-12-03 21:05                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-03 21:06                                                 ` Roland Winkler
2020-12-03 14:48                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-12  9:47                                         ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-12 11:17                                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-12 17:24                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-12 11:24                                     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-12 16:30                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-10-12 23:02                                         ` Tim Cross
2020-10-13  0:34                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13  6:02                                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-13 20:00                                     ` Juri Linkov
2020-10-13 20:36                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-10-14  4:05                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14  7:06                                         ` Protesilaos Stavrou
2020-10-14  7:09                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14  7:46                                             ` Protesilaos Stavrou
2020-10-14  7:53                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14  8:30                                                 ` James Cloos
2020-10-14  9:14                                                   ` tomas
2020-10-14 15:03                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14  8:03                                         ` Juri Linkov
2020-10-14 16:38                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-10-15  6:45                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 13:21                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-12  2:19                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12  7:58                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-12 13:23                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 13:39                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 15:27                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 16:40                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 17:29                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 17:51                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-13  7:34                                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19  3:13                                     ` Robert Weiner
2021-04-19  7:12                                       ` tomas
2021-04-19  7:55                                       ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2021-04-19 12:31                                         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 12:48                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  8:27                               ` How to make Emacs popular again Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:08                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 15:01                       ` James Lu
2020-10-01 15:03                         ` James Lu
2020-10-01 16:13                           ` GNU Dico - " Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:29                             ` Thibaut Verron
2020-10-01 16:39                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:32                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 16:41                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:55                                 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-10-01 16:44                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 15:19                         ` tomas
2020-10-01 15:33                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-01 16:07                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 19:15                         ` chad
2020-10-02  5:41                           ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29  8:08               ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-09-29 11:40                 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-30  4:37               ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 16:30 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 16:51   ` James Lu
2020-09-26 18:06     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-27  2:42       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  8:27         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28  3:47           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 16:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 17:36     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 18:11       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 18:58         ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 19:26           ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 19:28           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 21:04             ` James Lu
2020-09-27  2:42       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  6:29         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-27  2:42       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  7:32         ` Jean Louis
2020-09-27  7:53           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-28 22:25             ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29 14:11               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-29 15:14                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-20 13:22                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-10-20 15:46                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-27  4:14                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-10-27  7:15                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-22 14:09                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-22 14:18                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-28  3:44           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 19:27   ` Drew Adams
2020-09-27  2:41   ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  2:41   ` tooltip feature Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  9:42     ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-27 10:05       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-27 10:29         ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-27 16:00       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-29  1:07         ` chad
2020-09-27 17:31   ` Bob Newell [this message]
2020-09-27 20:31     ` How to make Emacs popular again James Lu
2020-09-28  3:52       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28  6:05       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-28 22:00       ` Jean Louis
2020-09-27 20:38     ` James Lu
2020-09-27 20:40       ` James Lu
2020-09-28  0:52       ` Bob Newell
2020-09-28  2:48         ` 황병희
2020-09-28 18:12         ` James Lu
2020-09-28  5:27       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 21:10     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-10-07  8:58     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-07 11:21       ` João Távora
2020-10-07 14:28         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-08  4:42         ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-08  9:27           ` João Távora
2020-10-09  3:32             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-08 14:05           ` Georges Ko
2020-10-08 14:13             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-09  3:32             ` Lists of symbols in the Lisp Manual Richard Stallman
2020-10-08 14:22           ` How to make Emacs popular again Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 14:29             ` Robert Pluim
2020-10-08 14:54               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 15:00                 ` Robert Pluim
2020-10-08 15:22                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 18:08               ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-08 18:21                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 20:45                   ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-08 20:49                     ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09  6:37                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 21:57                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-08 22:06                     ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:16                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-08 22:36                         ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:41                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
     [not found]                             ` <efa8dd80-e172-4b16-9052-1aaa027c14d9@default>
     [not found]                               ` <834kn37v3p.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-10-09 15:25                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09  6:41                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-09  7:38                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-09  9:41                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 20:38                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 20:39               ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:01                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 22:21                   ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:33                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 22:47                       ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 23:13                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-09 22:50                           ` Drew Adams
2020-10-10  0:51                             ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-10  2:15                               ` Drew Adams
2020-10-10  8:52                                 ` Michael Albinus
2020-10-10 16:20                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 20:45               ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09  3:32             ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28 18:12   ` James Lu
2020-09-30 18:44   ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-30 20:51     ` Mathias Dahl
2020-10-01 18:51       ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-26 17:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28  5:16 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-28 11:11   ` Ergus
2020-09-28 21:52     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-28  9:00 ` How to make Emacs popular again [or less square] Po Lu
2020-09-28  9:38   ` Eli Zaretskii

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