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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Jean Louis <bugs@rcdrun.com>, James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com>
Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: RE: How to make Emacs popular again.
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 12:27:03 -0700 (PDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <426d4d2b-9da2-47ce-8872-f138346779ca@default> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com>

> Good example of remedy are tooltips. Example is what
> I have here on the mode line:
> 
>  -:**-
> 
> So that is where the misunderstoods start, with -:**- so that looks
> like Chinese to me, even though I know what it means as experienced
> Emacs user. But from a view point of empowering a user, I have no clue
> how is that empowering me.
> 
> If I move the mouse point there to the first - I can see following
> words inside of a tooltip:
> 
> Buffer coding system (multi-byte): undecided-unix
> Mouse-1: describe coding system
> Mouse-3: set coding system

+1 for finding the tool-tip.  And +1 to Emacs for
providing it.

> So it is a tip, it should tell me some indications, but words are too
> hard for new users, one could ask himself what really applies to that
> definition of "buffer":
> 
> * Overview of noun buffer

Then you list 7 meanings of the English word "buffer",
from some dictionary.  Nope; not the best way to go.

Menu bar `Help' > `Search Documentation' > `Emacs
Terminology' tells you:

 Buffer
  The buffer is the basic editing unit; one buffer
  corresponds to one text being edited.  You normally
  have several buffers, but at any time you are editing
  only one, the current buffer, though several can be
  visible when you are using multiple windows or frames
  (q.v.).  Most buffers are visiting (q.v.) some file.
  *Note Buffers::.

(It ends with a link to node `Buffers' in the manual.)

But yes, Emacs should do more, to make its glossary
more readily available.  (And it maybe shouldn't use
"q.v.".)  `M-x report-emacs-bug' to suggest glossary
changes.  And thanks for taking an interest in Emacs
help/doc.

> So there are plenty of ways how new user can get misunderstoods. Do
> not assume that such has a ready Wordnet dictionary to do
> {M-x wordnut-search} like I do. They most probably don't have it.

You shouldn't need any access to a dictionary here.

What Emacs needs to do a better job of is advising
you to "Ask Emacs", and telling you _how_ to "Ask
Emacs".

Looking up "buffer" in a dictionary is nowhere near
as helpful as asking Emacs what _Emacs_ means by
"buffer".  At least it shouldn't be.  Emacs should
be the go-to place to ask about Emacs.  At your
fingertips, with a good help system.

But a new user isn't very likely to know this.
And a new user isn't very likely to know _how_
to ask Emacs what "buffer" means.  And yet Emacs
is ready, willing, and able to answer the question.

> A tooltip in Emacs user interface should have the option to be
> "caught" or examined, that it does not disappear, so that now user can
> click on words such as "buffer" and find out the definition of it,
> that user can understand what means "coding" in the context of buffer
> coding system, that user can understand what means "multi-byte", and
> what does it mean UNIX and what does it mean "undecided-unix", as if
> user does not know that, 

Agreed, direct bridges from short help/feedback
to more complete help would be welcome additions.

Emacs has good user help.  But yes, there's room
for improvement.

> - Making Emacs friendlier will be easier with a built-in dictionary
>   that will describe any terminology in easy English

Emacs has a glossary - see above.  It could no
doubt be improved.  Suggestions welcome (`M-x
report-emacs-bug').

> - all tooltips, all words, should be describable and definable by
>   clicking the mouse or choosing {M-x define-word} or similar
>   function. Just all. I am talking about easy English description of
>   Menus, it is analogous to {C-h k} to describe the menu, but in easy
>   way, without confusing the user more and more.

Agreed, though some of that might be easier said
than done.  You can't click a mouseover tooltip,
for example.  But you can click a link in a *Help*
window.

In `help+.el' I define command `help-on-click/key',
bound to `C-h RET' and `C-h mouse-1'.  And library
`menu-bar+.el' adds it to menu `Help' > `Describe'
as item `This'.

This command doesn't work for everything, but it's
usable many places.  It prompts you to click something,
hit a key, or choose a menu item, and it tells you
about the thing you click or the key/menu you choose.

,----
| help-on-click/key is an interactive Lisp function in ‘help+.el’.
| 
| It is bound to C-h RET, f1 RET, help RET, menu-bar help-menu describe
| help-on-click/key.
| 
| (help-on-click/key KEY)
| 
| Give help on a key/menu sequence or object clicked with the mouse.
| The object can be any part of an Emacs window or a name appearing in a
| buffer.  You can do any of the following:
| 
|     type a key sequence (e.g. `C-M-s')
|     choose a menu item (e.g. [menu-bar files open-file])
|     click on a scroll bar
|     click on the mode line
|     click in the minibuffer
|     click on an Emacs-related name in a buffer: apropos is called
|     click anywhere else in a buffer: its modes are described
| 
| Help is generally provided using `describe-key' and the Emacs online
| manual (via `Info-goto-emacs-key-command-node').  If no entry is found
| in the index of the Emacs manual, then the manual is searched from the
| beginning for literal occurrences of KEY.
| 
| If you click on a name in a buffer, then `apropos-documentation' and
| `apropos' are used to find information on the name.  These functions
| are not used when you do something besides click on a name.
| 
| If you click elsewhere in a buffer other than the minibuffer, then
| `describe-mode' is used to describe the buffer's current mode(s).
`----

It's a start, but Emacs could offer more such help.
`help+.el' has been around since 2007.

______

`help+.el':
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/download/help%2b.el

About Help+ libraries:
https://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/HelpPlus





  parent reply	other threads:[~2020-09-26 19:27 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 292+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2020-09-26 13:38 How to make Emacs popular again James Lu
2020-09-26 13:47 ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-09-26 13:50   ` James Lu
2020-09-26 13:59 ` Philip K.
2020-09-26 14:53   ` Ergus
2020-09-26 16:59     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 18:26     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-27  2:41       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 13:16         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28  3:45           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28 23:29             ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28 23:51               ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-09-30  4:37                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-30  5:26                   ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-10-02  3:45                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  4:43                       ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-09-30 10:03                   ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01  4:14                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01  7:41                       ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-01  8:11                       ` Philip K.
2020-10-02  3:52                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 16:02                           ` dict - " Jean Louis
2020-10-03  2:56                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03  7:47                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-10  3:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03  9:00                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10  3:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:21                       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01  4:14                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:22                       ` Jean Louis
2020-09-30 13:59                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01  4:13                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 13:07                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 14:39                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:53                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 15:11                           ` tomas
2020-10-01 16:15                             ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:30                               ` tomas
2020-10-02  3:53                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:46                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-10-01 16:21                           ` Jean Louis
2020-10-02  3:52                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  7:08                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-02 10:11                               ` Sv: " arthur miller
2020-10-02 16:13                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-02 16:18                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-02 16:33                                   ` Jean Louis
2020-10-03  7:26                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  3:45                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  7:31                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10  3:53                                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-10  7:24                                           ` Tomas Hlavaty
2020-10-10  7:52                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10 12:22                                               ` Tomas Hlavaty
2020-10-04  8:56                                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04  3:38                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 16:07                             ` Jean Louis
2020-10-03  2:56                               ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03  8:28                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:52                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-02  3:52                           ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  3:52                         ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02  7:07                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  3:38                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  6:57                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  9:02                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04  9:06                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  3:14                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-05  5:54                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-06  2:34                                     ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  8:25                               ` Dictionaries better be offline - " Jean Louis
2020-10-04  3:38                             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04  7:03                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 10:07                                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 10:52                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 13:54                                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 14:05                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05  3:12                                       ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-10  3:53                                 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-11  5:37                                   ` How to make Emacs popular again: Use monospaced fonts less Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11  6:28                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11  6:35                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11  7:00                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 10:54                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 11:28                                             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 13:58                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 22:21                                                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-12 16:49                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13  0:38                                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13 14:40                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14  4:03                                                         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 14:54                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 17:07                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 17:39                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 22:53                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 13:57                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:21                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 14:28                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:48                                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 14:52                                                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 15:00                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 16:25                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 16:50                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 18:31                                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 18:49                                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15  6:51                                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 12:26                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15  6:48                                                             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 14:02                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:07                                                                 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 14:24                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-16  5:06                                                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 13:56                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 22:14                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 23:39                                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-12 16:46                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13  0:35                                                   ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13 14:39                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14  4:01                                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 14:49                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 13:21                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 14:02                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 14:35                                     ` Teemu Likonen
2020-10-11 15:21                                     ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-11 18:29                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 18:58                                         ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-11 19:41                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 19:42                                         ` Drew Adams
2020-10-11 19:56                                         ` Stephen Berman
2020-10-11 21:09                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 22:23                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 22:50                                             ` Stephen Berman
2020-12-02 21:06                                             ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-02 22:33                                               ` Stephen Berman
2020-12-03 21:05                                                 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-03 21:06                                                 ` Roland Winkler
2020-12-03 14:48                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-12  9:47                                         ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-12 11:17                                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-12 17:24                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-12 11:24                                     ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-12 16:30                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-10-12 23:02                                         ` Tim Cross
2020-10-13  0:34                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13  6:02                                         ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-13 20:00                                     ` Juri Linkov
2020-10-13 20:36                                       ` Drew Adams
2020-10-14  4:05                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14  7:06                                         ` Protesilaos Stavrou
2020-10-14  7:09                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14  7:46                                             ` Protesilaos Stavrou
2020-10-14  7:53                                               ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14  8:30                                                 ` James Cloos
2020-10-14  9:14                                                   ` tomas
2020-10-14 15:03                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14  8:03                                         ` Juri Linkov
2020-10-14 16:38                                           ` Drew Adams
2020-10-15  6:45                                           ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 13:21                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-12  2:19                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12  7:58                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-12 13:23                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 13:39                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 15:27                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 16:40                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 17:29                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 17:51                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-13  7:34                                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19  3:13                                     ` Robert Weiner
2021-04-19  7:12                                       ` tomas
2021-04-19  7:55                                       ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2021-04-19 12:31                                         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 12:48                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04  8:27                               ` How to make Emacs popular again Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:08                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 15:01                       ` James Lu
2020-10-01 15:03                         ` James Lu
2020-10-01 16:13                           ` GNU Dico - " Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:29                             ` Thibaut Verron
2020-10-01 16:39                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:32                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 16:41                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:55                                 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-10-01 16:44                               ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 15:19                         ` tomas
2020-10-01 15:33                         ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-01 16:07                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 19:15                         ` chad
2020-10-02  5:41                           ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29  8:08               ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-09-29 11:40                 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-30  4:37               ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 16:30 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 16:51   ` James Lu
2020-09-26 18:06     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-27  2:42       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  8:27         ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28  3:47           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 16:54   ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 17:36     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 18:11       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 18:58         ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 19:26           ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 19:28           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 21:04             ` James Lu
2020-09-27  2:42       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  6:29         ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-27  2:42       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  7:32         ` Jean Louis
2020-09-27  7:53           ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-28 22:25             ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29 14:11               ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-29 15:14                 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-20 13:22                   ` Arthur Miller
2020-10-20 15:46                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-27  4:14                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-10-27  7:15                         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-22 14:09                     ` Jean Louis
2020-10-22 14:18                       ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-28  3:44           ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 19:27   ` Drew Adams [this message]
2020-09-27  2:41   ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  2:41   ` tooltip feature Richard Stallman
2020-09-27  9:42     ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-27 10:05       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-27 10:29         ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-27 16:00       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-29  1:07         ` chad
2020-09-27 17:31   ` How to make Emacs popular again Bob Newell
2020-09-27 20:31     ` James Lu
2020-09-28  3:52       ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28  6:05       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-28 22:00       ` Jean Louis
2020-09-27 20:38     ` James Lu
2020-09-27 20:40       ` James Lu
2020-09-28  0:52       ` Bob Newell
2020-09-28  2:48         ` 황병희
2020-09-28 18:12         ` James Lu
2020-09-28  5:27       ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 21:10     ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-10-07  8:58     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-07 11:21       ` João Távora
2020-10-07 14:28         ` Jean Louis
2020-10-08  4:42         ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-08  9:27           ` João Távora
2020-10-09  3:32             ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-08 14:05           ` Georges Ko
2020-10-08 14:13             ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-09  3:32             ` Lists of symbols in the Lisp Manual Richard Stallman
2020-10-08 14:22           ` How to make Emacs popular again Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 14:29             ` Robert Pluim
2020-10-08 14:54               ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 15:00                 ` Robert Pluim
2020-10-08 15:22                   ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 18:08               ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-08 18:21                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 20:45                   ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-08 20:49                     ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09  6:37                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 21:57                   ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-08 22:06                     ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:16                       ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-08 22:36                         ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:41                           ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
     [not found]                             ` <efa8dd80-e172-4b16-9052-1aaa027c14d9@default>
     [not found]                               ` <834kn37v3p.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-10-09 15:25                                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09  6:41                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-09  7:38                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-09  9:41                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 20:38                 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 20:39               ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:01                 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 22:21                   ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:33                     ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 22:47                       ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 23:13                         ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-09 22:50                           ` Drew Adams
2020-10-10  0:51                             ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-10  2:15                               ` Drew Adams
2020-10-10  8:52                                 ` Michael Albinus
2020-10-10 16:20                                   ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 20:45               ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09  3:32             ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28 18:12   ` James Lu
2020-09-30 18:44   ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-30 20:51     ` Mathias Dahl
2020-10-01 18:51       ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-26 17:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28  5:16 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-28 11:11   ` Ergus
2020-09-28 21:52     ` Jean Louis
2020-09-28  9:00 ` How to make Emacs popular again [or less square] Po Lu
2020-09-28  9:38   ` Eli Zaretskii

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