From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.io!.POSTED.blaine.gmane.org!not-for-mail From: Bob Newell Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again. 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[141.239.244.209]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l188sm8684960pfl.200.2020.09.27.10.31.46 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 27 Sep 2020 10:31:46 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <20200926163008.GS1349@protected.rcdrun.com> (Jean Louis's message of "Sat, 26 Sep 2020 19:30:08 +0300") Received-SPF: none client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::431; envelope-from=bobnewell@bobnewell.net; helo=mail-pf1-x431.google.com X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: No matching host in p0f cache. That's all we know. X-Spam_score_int: -18 X-Spam_score: -1.9 X-Spam_bar: - X-Spam_report: (-1.9 / 5.0 requ) BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001 autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no X-Spam_action: no action X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.23 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane-mx.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.io gmane.emacs.devel:256547 Archived-At: In your long posting with many ideas about making Emacs beginner friendly, there is much to consider, and I must say right at the start that easing the Emacs learning experience is a worthy goal. It does raise the question: how did the current Emacs users learn Emacs? I can't speak for anyone else but I don't know that my own experiences are in any way unique. I learned first from the tutorial, then from some of the manuals, then by doing and experimenting and reading more of the manuals, and trial and error. Could this have been more efficient? Yes, of course. But I did I learn a lot in the process--- a very serious "lot"--- and it cemented my knowledge and appreciation of what Emacs could, and was already, doing for me. Do I advocate pure bumbling in the dark as a means of learning? No. But perhaps guided bumbling is more of the thing. We can never forget something critically important: Emacs is a very sophisticated, very powerful tool, and like all such tools, it takes effort and dedication to learn. (Even lesser tools, like office suites, take effort to learn, if perhaps in lesser amounts.) While we can and should do all we can to make the road smoother--- short of turning Emacs into something completely different and so overwhelmed with tooltips, popups, and other "help" that it becomes unpleasant or even unusable--- let's face it, Emacs is never going to be "easy." Emacs will continue to attract a certain audience. I'm not sure that this is an issue per se. Nor (as I've said in the past) do I mean this to be an elitist thing. Emacs has a certain appeal to certain people. So does opera, baseball, or liver and onions. Things are, in fact, very much easier now than when I started with Emacs decades ago. Today, there is a wealth of on-line information, with tutorials, how-tos, discussions, code samples, and help readily available to anyone who asks politely. But in the end: do you become a chess master after reading a "Chess Made Easy" book? Do you become a concert guitarist after working through "Guitar Playing Made Easy For Beginners"? Effort and reward go together, whether it's Emacs or anything else that is deep and sophisticated. If someone wants instant gratification, maybe Twitter is a better choice. -- Bob Newell Honolulu, Hawai`i - Via GNU/Linux/Emacs/Gnus/BBDB