From: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>
To: "Philip K." <philipk@posteo.net>
Cc: James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com>, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: How to make Emacs popular again.
Date: Sat, 26 Sep 2020 16:53:02 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <20200926145302.sjrwjrguf5ialc25@Ergus> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87o8ls1vvq.fsf@posteo.net>
On Sat, Sep 26, 2020 at 03:59:53PM +0200, Philip K. wrote:
>
>James Lu <jamtlu@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> a la Don't Make Me Think by Steve Krug.
>
>I'm not familiar with the book, but from from [0]
>
>> The book's premise is that a good software program or web site should
>> let users accomplish their intended tasks as easily and directly as
>> possible.
>
>I guess I agree, but it seems to be a truism. Nobody wants to make
>software intentionally unusable, it's hard to imagine that people would
>still be using Emacs after all this time if that were the case.
>
>The question I see is should it be "Don't make me think" or "Don't make
>me learn". I get the first one, but you limit yourself to what you
>already know, if you want everything to already be familiar.
>
IMO it is indeed a mixture. A point in the middle that in emacs never
(or very rarely) reaches and agreement in favor of new users. At the end
someone always has to learn something either the old or new users...
On one side Emacs is extremely powerful and complex so it should be
expected some differences with other software, at the end every program
is at some point different to the others specially for the complex
tasks. In that case it makes sense that the new user have to learn how
to proceed.
BUT, on the other hand, it is true that Emacs makes some simple things
more complex/weird and keep them like that just because "it is the emacs
way" or "not to bother old users" or "we shouldn't do that just because
others do" or "our way is better just 90% more complex because it covers
this very weird and infrequent use case".
It is like a language evolution; with 1 or 2 differences it is fine; but
after many years with that policy the rest of the world evolves and only
the ancient people in the city will know your language while the younger
only learn it if they are forced to or have not choice.
Many things in emacs are indeed different because they were before; even
before the computer boom in the 90s; but then after the years everyone
adopted a different "standard" (due to Windows, Office, or even gnome
and KDE) and somehow we decided not to follow them. Again with one or
two details it is fine; but after some years... the differences pilled
up.
IMO it makes sense that a user reads a manual to know how to record a
macro, or replace all occurrences of a regex, or configure completions,
autopair, send email... But it is crazy (and pointless to discuss in
this mailing list) that a user has to learn how to copy and paste from
the keyboard or try to understand why there is not a right click panel
with the basic-common options, or why shift+click doesn't behave as it
does everywhere else...
>[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don%27t_Make_Me_Think
>
> Philip K.
>
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2020-09-26 14:53 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 292+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2020-09-26 13:38 How to make Emacs popular again James Lu
2020-09-26 13:47 ` Pankaj Jangid
2020-09-26 13:50 ` James Lu
2020-09-26 13:59 ` Philip K.
2020-09-26 14:53 ` Ergus [this message]
2020-09-26 16:59 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 18:26 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-27 2:41 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 13:16 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28 3:45 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28 23:29 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28 23:51 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-09-30 4:37 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-30 5:26 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-10-02 3:45 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 4:43 ` Eduardo Ochs
2020-09-30 10:03 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 4:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 7:41 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-01 8:11 ` Philip K.
2020-10-02 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 16:02 ` dict - " Jean Louis
2020-10-03 2:56 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03 7:47 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-10 3:53 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03 9:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10 3:53 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:21 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 4:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:22 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-30 13:59 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 4:13 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 13:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 14:39 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 15:11 ` tomas
2020-10-01 16:15 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:30 ` tomas
2020-10-02 3:53 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-01 14:46 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2020-10-01 16:21 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-02 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 7:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-02 10:11 ` Sv: " arthur miller
2020-10-02 16:13 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-02 16:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-02 16:33 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-03 7:26 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 3:45 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04 7:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10 3:53 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-10 7:24 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2020-10-10 7:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-10 12:22 ` Tomas Hlavaty
2020-10-04 8:56 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 3:38 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 16:07 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-03 2:56 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-03 8:28 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-02 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-02 7:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 3:38 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04 6:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 9:02 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 9:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05 3:14 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-05 5:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-06 2:34 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04 8:25 ` Dictionaries better be offline - " Jean Louis
2020-10-04 3:38 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-04 7:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 10:07 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 10:52 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 13:54 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 14:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-05 3:12 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-10 3:53 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-11 5:37 ` How to make Emacs popular again: Use monospaced fonts less Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 6:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 6:35 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 7:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 10:54 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 11:28 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 13:58 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 22:21 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-12 16:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13 0:38 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13 14:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 4:03 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 14:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 17:07 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-14 17:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 22:53 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 13:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 14:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:48 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 14:52 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 15:00 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 16:25 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 16:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 18:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 18:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 6:51 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 12:26 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-15 6:48 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 14:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-15 14:07 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-15 14:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-16 5:06 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 13:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 22:14 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-11 23:39 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-12 16:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-13 0:35 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13 14:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 4:01 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 14:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 13:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 14:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-11 14:35 ` Teemu Likonen
2020-10-11 15:21 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-11 18:29 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 18:58 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-11 19:41 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 19:42 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-11 19:56 ` Stephen Berman
2020-10-11 21:09 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 22:23 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-11 22:50 ` Stephen Berman
2020-12-02 21:06 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-02 22:33 ` Stephen Berman
2020-12-03 21:05 ` Juri Linkov
2020-12-03 21:06 ` Roland Winkler
2020-12-03 14:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-12 9:47 ` Andreas Schwab
2020-10-12 11:17 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-12 17:24 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-12 11:24 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-12 16:30 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-12 23:02 ` Tim Cross
2020-10-13 0:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-13 6:02 ` Ricardo Wurmus
2020-10-13 20:00 ` Juri Linkov
2020-10-13 20:36 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-14 4:05 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 7:06 ` Protesilaos Stavrou
2020-10-14 7:09 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 7:46 ` Protesilaos Stavrou
2020-10-14 7:53 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 8:30 ` James Cloos
2020-10-14 9:14 ` tomas
2020-10-14 15:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-14 8:03 ` Juri Linkov
2020-10-14 16:38 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-15 6:45 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2020-10-14 13:21 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-04-12 2:19 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 7:58 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-12 13:23 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 13:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 15:27 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 16:40 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-12 17:29 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-04-12 17:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-04-13 7:34 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 3:13 ` Robert Weiner
2021-04-19 7:12 ` tomas
2021-04-19 7:55 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2021-04-19 12:31 ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-04-19 12:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-04 8:27 ` How to make Emacs popular again Jean Louis
2020-10-01 14:08 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 15:01 ` James Lu
2020-10-01 15:03 ` James Lu
2020-10-01 16:13 ` GNU Dico - " Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:29 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-10-01 16:39 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:32 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-01 16:41 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 16:55 ` Thibaut Verron
2020-10-01 16:44 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 15:19 ` tomas
2020-10-01 15:33 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-01 16:07 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-01 19:15 ` chad
2020-10-02 5:41 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29 8:08 ` Kévin Le Gouguec
2020-09-29 11:40 ` Robert Pluim
2020-09-30 4:37 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 16:30 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 16:51 ` James Lu
2020-09-26 18:06 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-27 2:42 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 8:27 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-09-28 3:47 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 16:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 17:36 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 18:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 18:58 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-26 19:26 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-26 19:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-26 21:04 ` James Lu
2020-09-27 2:42 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 6:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-27 2:42 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 7:32 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-27 7:53 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-28 22:25 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-29 14:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-29 15:14 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-20 13:22 ` Arthur Miller
2020-10-20 15:46 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-27 4:14 ` Arthur Miller
2020-10-27 7:15 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-22 14:09 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-22 14:18 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-28 3:44 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-26 19:27 ` Drew Adams
2020-09-27 2:41 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 2:41 ` tooltip feature Richard Stallman
2020-09-27 9:42 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-27 10:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-27 10:29 ` Arthur Miller
2020-09-27 16:00 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-29 1:07 ` chad
2020-09-27 17:31 ` How to make Emacs popular again Bob Newell
2020-09-27 20:31 ` James Lu
2020-09-28 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28 6:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-09-28 22:00 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-27 20:38 ` James Lu
2020-09-27 20:40 ` James Lu
2020-09-28 0:52 ` Bob Newell
2020-09-28 2:48 ` 황병희
2020-09-28 18:12 ` James Lu
2020-09-28 5:27 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-04 21:10 ` Dmitry Gutov
2020-10-07 8:58 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-07 11:21 ` João Távora
2020-10-07 14:28 ` Jean Louis
2020-10-08 4:42 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-08 9:27 ` João Távora
2020-10-09 3:32 ` Richard Stallman
2020-10-08 14:05 ` Georges Ko
2020-10-08 14:13 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-09 3:32 ` Lists of symbols in the Lisp Manual Richard Stallman
2020-10-08 14:22 ` How to make Emacs popular again Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 14:29 ` Robert Pluim
2020-10-08 14:54 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 15:00 ` Robert Pluim
2020-10-08 15:22 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 18:08 ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-08 18:21 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 20:45 ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-08 20:49 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09 6:37 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 21:57 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-08 22:06 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:16 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-10-08 22:36 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:41 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
[not found] ` <efa8dd80-e172-4b16-9052-1aaa027c14d9@default>
[not found] ` <834kn37v3p.fsf@gnu.org>
2020-10-09 15:25 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09 6:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-09 7:38 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-09 9:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2020-10-08 20:38 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 20:39 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:01 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 22:21 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 22:33 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-08 22:47 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 23:13 ` Gregory Heytings via Emacs development discussions.
2020-10-09 22:50 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-10 0:51 ` Daniel Martín
2020-10-10 2:15 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-10 8:52 ` Michael Albinus
2020-10-10 16:20 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-08 20:45 ` Drew Adams
2020-10-09 3:32 ` Richard Stallman
2020-09-28 18:12 ` James Lu
2020-09-30 18:44 ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-30 20:51 ` Mathias Dahl
2020-10-01 18:51 ` Juri Linkov
2020-09-26 17:31 ` Stefan Monnier
2020-09-28 5:16 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-28 11:11 ` Ergus
2020-09-28 21:52 ` Jean Louis
2020-09-28 9:00 ` How to make Emacs popular again [or less square] Po Lu
2020-09-28 9:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
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