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From: Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk>
Cc: Stefan Monnier <monnier+gnu/emacs@rum.cs.yale.edu>,
	rms@gnu.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..)
Date: Sat, 07 Sep 2002 15:07:07 +0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <rjptvq6j9g.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <rj7khy80v9.fsf@zuse.dina.kvl.dk> (Per Abrahamsen's message of "Sat, 07 Sep 2002 14:01:30 +0200")

Per Abrahamsen <abraham@dina.kvl.dk> writes:

> Miles Bader <miles@gnu.org> writes:
>
>> On Fri, Sep 06, 2002 at 01:28:30PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote:
>>> >         M-x customize-option <ret> global-key-bindings <ret>
>>> 
>>> I must say I really dislike the idea of customizing
>>> `global-key-bindings' when I actually want to change `global-map'.
>>
>> Agreed.  Customize should be a friendly face for the existing infrastructure,
>> not a distant relative...
>
> Emacs will never be easy to customize, then.

Maybe I should elaborate...

The problem isn't global-key-bindings, it can easily be named
"global-map" with no loss of functionality.

The problem is the mindset that making complex applications written by
programmers for programmers easy to configure, is simply a matter of
providing a "friendly" interface to the existing configuration
mechanisms.  This mindset is shared by most traditional Unix
developers (and probably Lisp developers too, but who cares).

However, this assumes that being "easy to configure" is merely a
matter of "syntactical sugar", that is, provide a form based interface
to the old text based configuration files.  

What it really does is to force users to think like programmers, which
of course is a lot easier to the programmer than having programmers
think like users.

Note: Here I use "user" to mean the kind of end-users who would never
become programmers, or edit a configuration file directly.  I know
programmers are users too, and even can benefit a form based
customization interface, but they are not the kind of users who really
*need* such an interface,

If you want to make configuration easy to the end-users, you need to
start with their needs, and not with the old textual configuration
files.  It is one area where MS Windows and Mac programmers tend to be
better than Unix programmers.

  parent reply	other threads:[~2002-09-07 13:07 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 221+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2002-08-23 14:15 [CVS] f7, f8 bound D. Goel
2002-08-25 23:16 ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-25 22:39   ` D. Goel
2002-08-26 15:26   ` Stefan Monnier
2002-08-27  2:02     ` Miles Bader
2002-08-27  8:56       ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-27  8:55     ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-27  8:55       ` Juanma Barranquero
2002-08-27 10:32         ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-27 10:01           ` Juanma Barranquero
2002-08-27 11:55             ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-27 11:07               ` Juanma Barranquero
2002-08-27 16:21       ` Stefan Monnier
2002-08-28  1:12         ` Miles Bader
2002-08-28  9:33           ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-28  8:54             ` Miles Bader
2002-08-28  9:09               ` Juanma Barranquero
2002-08-28 10:58                 ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-28 10:21                   ` Juanma Barranquero
2002-08-28  9:09               ` Miles Bader
2002-08-28 10:47                 ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-28 14:13                   ` Stefan Monnier
2002-08-29 14:35                     ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-29 17:24                       ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-08 23:02                         ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-09 10:49                           ` Francesco Potorti`
2002-09-09 13:43                           ` Miles Bader
2002-09-09 19:14                           ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-09 23:34                             ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-10 21:50                               ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-09 23:45                             ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-10 16:36                               ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-10 12:17                             ` Francesco Potorti`
2002-09-10 23:16                               ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-11  9:03                                 ` Francesco Potorti`
2002-08-28 13:37                 ` Francesco Potorti`
2002-08-28 14:28                   ` Kai Großjohann
2002-08-28 14:41                     ` Francesco Potorti`
2002-08-28 23:33                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-29  9:25                     ` Kai Großjohann
2002-08-30  6:09                       ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-30 14:48                         ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-30 23:55                           ` Miles Bader
2002-08-31 11:21                             ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-01 13:14                               ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-01 14:22                                 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-01 14:37                                   ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-02 17:05                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-02 17:54                                       ` Kai Großjohann
2002-09-02 23:24                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-03 10:55                                           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-03 13:02                                             ` Miles Bader
2002-09-03 13:53                                               ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-03 15:04                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-03 17:31                                                 ` Miles Bader
2002-09-03 19:27                                                   ` Andreas Schwab
2002-09-03 22:56                                                     ` Miles Bader
2002-09-03 23:53                                                       ` Miles Bader
2002-09-04 11:59                                                         ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-09-04 22:35                                                           ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-03 23:23                                                     ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-09-04 10:31                                                       ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-04 15:30                                                         ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-09-04 22:25                                                           ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-05 13:00                                                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-09-05 10:00                                                           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-05 14:59                                                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-09-05 16:18                                                               ` Francesco Potorti`
2002-09-05 19:13                                                                 ` D. Goel
2002-09-05 15:05                                                             ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-09-05 18:03                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-04 22:00                                                         ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-05 10:15                                                           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-06  1:16                                                             ` Miles Bader
2002-09-06 10:07                                                               ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-06 22:19                                                                 ` Miles Bader
2002-09-07 12:40                                                                   ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-06 17:36                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-06 22:21                                                               ` Miles Bader
2002-09-07  0:53                                                                 ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-07  0:32                                                                   ` Miles Bader
2002-09-07  7:59                                                                     ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 10:28                                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-09 13:35                                                                   ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-09 15:45                                                                     ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09 23:34                                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-07 10:28                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-07  7:45                                                               ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 14:08                                                               ` Customizing key bindings Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 23:43                                                                 ` Miles Bader
2002-09-09  8:05                                                                   ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09  9:19                                                                     ` Miles Bader
2002-09-09 12:20                                                                       ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09 14:09                                                                         ` Miles Bader
2002-09-09 15:23                                                                           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09 17:25                                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-09 14:33                                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-09 23:34                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-09 23:33                                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-10 10:29                                                                         ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-11  1:40                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-10 17:57                                                                         ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-11  3:05                                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-11  8:52                                                                             ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09  0:21                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-09  1:52                                                                   ` Miles Bader
2002-09-09 23:33                                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-05  2:47                                                         ` [CVS] f7, f8 bound Richard Stallman
2002-09-05  9:39                                                           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-04 14:23                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-03 14:12                                               ` Kai Großjohann
2002-09-03 15:09                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-03 15:17                                                   ` Kai Großjohann
2002-09-02 14:53                                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-02 16:40                                     ` Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..) Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-02 21:55                                       ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-03 12:27                                         ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-03 22:35                                           ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-03 22:49                                             ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-04  0:45                                               ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-04 10:00                                                 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-05  2:47                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-05  9:18                                                     ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-06  4:01                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-06  9:51                                                         ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-04 15:11                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-05  9:26                                                   ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-06  4:01                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-06 22:30                                                       ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-07 14:12                                                     ` Customizing key bindings Alex Schroeder
2002-09-05 18:03                                                   ` Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..) Richard Stallman
2002-09-05 18:35                                                     ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-06 15:10                                                       ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-05  2:46                                               ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-05 16:17                                                 ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-06  4:01                                                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-07 13:50                                                     ` Customizing key bindings Alex Schroeder
2002-09-05 16:47                                               ` Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..) Kai Großjohann
2002-09-07 14:20                                                 ` use diff-list in Emacs Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 15:52                                                   ` Kai Großjohann
2002-09-07 22:46                                                     ` Miles Bader
2002-09-08 19:22                                                       ` Kai Großjohann
2002-09-04 14:20                                           ` Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..) Richard Stallman
2002-09-05 17:20                                             ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-06 17:28                                               ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-06 22:03                                                 ` Miles Bader
2002-09-07 12:01                                                   ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-07 12:40                                                     ` Miles Bader
2002-09-07 13:07                                                     ` Per Abrahamsen [this message]
2002-09-07 14:17                                                       ` Robert J. Chassell
2002-09-07 17:48                                                         ` What custom is and does Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 22:57                                                           ` Miles Bader
2002-09-09  7:49                                                           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-07 18:58                                                         ` Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..) Kai Großjohann
2002-09-09 13:53                                                       ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-09 14:59                                                         ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09 23:34                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-07  9:06                                               ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 12:11                                                 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-07  9:15                                               ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 12:28                                                 ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-07 13:48                                                   ` Customizing key bindings Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 13:56                                                   ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 13:39                                                 ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-07 15:10                                                   ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09 22:06                                                     ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-09 22:12                                                       ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-09 22:49                                                         ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-09 22:58                                                           ` Stefan Monnier
2002-09-10 10:19                                                           ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-08 12:54                                                 ` Customizing key bindings (was: Re: [CVS] f7, f8 bound..) Richard Stallman
2002-09-09  7:57                                                   ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-09 23:33                                                     ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-10 18:07                                                       ` Alex Schroeder
2002-09-11  3:04                                                         ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-11  8:49                                                         ` Per Abrahamsen
2002-09-11 20:03                                                           ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-09 21:09                                                   ` Alex Schroeder
     [not found]                             ` <m2it1qqmae.fsf@primate.xs4all.nl>
2002-09-01 10:36                               ` [CVS] f7, f8 bound Miles Bader
2002-09-01 13:02                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-09-01 13:45                                 ` Pavel Janík
2002-09-01 16:57                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-09-01 16:57                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-09-01 13:14                             ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-06 12:55                           ` Francesco Potorti`
     [not found]                         ` <m2r8geqole.fsf@primate.xs4all.nl>
2002-09-01  5:19                           ` Damien Elmes
2002-09-02  0:01                           ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-03  0:04                             ` David A. Cobb
2002-08-29 14:38                   ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-29 13:47                     ` Francesco Potorti`
     [not found]                   ` <m2wuq6qpai.fsf@primate.xs4all.nl>
2002-09-01 10:45                     ` Miles Bader
2002-08-28 18:42               ` Edward O'Connor
2002-08-29  1:16                 ` Miles Bader
2002-08-28 23:32               ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-29  1:14                 ` Miles Bader
2002-08-30  6:10                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-30  6:22                     ` Miles Bader
2002-08-30 19:17                       ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-31  0:40                         ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-31  2:16                       ` Miles Bader
2002-09-01 13:15                         ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-02  1:23                           ` Miles Bader
2002-09-02 10:22                             ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-02  9:38                               ` Miles Bader
2002-09-03 13:26                             ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-03 14:39                               ` Kim F. Storm
2002-09-04 14:21                                 ` Richard Stallman
2002-09-08 22:51                                 ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-30  6:10                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-30 14:35                     ` Stefan Monnier
2002-08-30 19:19                       ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-31  0:00                       ` Miles Bader
2002-08-31 11:28                         ` Alex Schroeder
2002-08-30 14:49                     ` Francesco Potorti`
2002-08-31  0:33                       ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-31  6:07                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2002-08-29 14:42                 ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-30  1:05                   ` Miles Bader
2002-08-30 12:07                     ` Kim F. Storm
2002-08-30  6:09                   ` Richard Stallman
2002-08-28  6:52       ` Richard Stallman

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