cairo now default?

cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

I notice that ./configure <RET> configures the build to use cairo and
not to use HarfBuzz. Perhaps I'm mistaken, I don't remember cairo as
default. Users now have presumably to specify --without-cairo. Also I
seem to recall someone here saying that HarfBuzz should be used when
cairo is used.

Best wishes,

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:13:58 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:

    Colin> I notice that ./configure <RET> configures the build to use cairo and
    Colin> not to use HarfBuzz. Perhaps I'm mistaken, I don't remember cairo as
    Colin> default. Users now have presumably to specify --without-cairo. Also I
    Colin> seem to recall someone here saying that HarfBuzz should be used when
    Colin> cairo is used.

Did configure not say that at the end? I guess you donʼt have HarfBuzz
headers installed, they're used if they're found.

configure.ac:

    if test "${HAVE_CAIRO}" = "yes" && test "${HAVE_HARFBUZZ}" = no; then
      AC_MSG_WARN([This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library,
        but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library.  We recommend the use
        of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz development
        packages.])
    fi

etc/NEWS:

    * Installation Changes in Emacs 28.1

    ** Cairo graphics library is now used by default if found.
    '--with-cairo' is now the default, if the appropriate development files
    are found by 'configure'.  Note that building with Cairo means using
    Pango instead of libXFT for font support.  Since Pango 1.44 has
    removed support for bitmapped fonts, this may require you to adjust
    your font settings.

    Note also that 'FontBackend' settings in ".Xdefaults" or
    ".Xresources", or 'font-backend' frame parameter settings in your init
    files, may need to be adjusted, as 'xft' is no longer a valid backend
    when using Cairo.  Use 'ftcrhb' if your Emacs was built with HarfBuzz
    text shaping support, and 'ftcr' otherwise.  You can determine this by
    checking 'system-configuration-features'.  The 'ftcr' backend will
    still be available when HarfBuzz is supported, but will not be used by
    default.  We strongly recommend building with HarBuzz support. 'x' is
    still a valid backend.

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 10:13:58 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    Colin> I notice that ./configure <RET> configures the build to use
    Colin> cairo and not to use HarfBuzz. Perhaps I'm mistaken, I don't
    Colin> remember cairo as default. Users now have presumably to
    Colin> specify --without-cairo. Also I seem to recall someone here
    Colin> saying that HarfBuzz should be used when cairo is used.

    > Did configure not say that at the end? I guess you donʼt have
    > HarfBuzz headers installed, they're used if they're found.

    > configure.ac:

    >     if test "${HAVE_CAIRO}" = "yes" && test "${HAVE_HARFBUZZ}" =
    > no; then AC_MSG_WARN([This configuration uses the Cairo graphics
    > library, but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library.  We recommend
    > the use of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz
    > development packages.])  fi

    > etc/NEWS:

    >     * Installation Changes in Emacs 28.1

    >     ** Cairo graphics library is now used by default if found.
    > '--with-cairo' is now the default, if the appropriate development
    > files are found by 'configure'.  Note that building with Cairo
    > means using Pango instead of libXFT for font support.  Since Pango
    > 1.44 has removed support for bitmapped fonts, this may require you
    > to adjust your font settings.

    >     Note also that 'FontBackend' settings in ".Xdefaults" or
    > ".Xresources", or 'font-backend' frame parameter settings in your
    > init files, may need to be adjusted, as 'xft' is no longer a valid
    > backend when using Cairo.  Use 'ftcrhb' if your Emacs was built
    > with HarfBuzz text shaping support, and 'ftcr' otherwise.  You can
    > determine this by checking 'system-configuration-features'.  The
    > 'ftcr' backend will still be available when HarfBuzz is supported,
    > but will not be used by default.  We strongly recommend building
    > with HarBuzz support. 'x' is still a valid backend.

The configure warning:

"This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library,
but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library.  We recommend the use
of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz development
packages."

occurs at the end of the list of configured options and then scrolls up
disappearing from the screen before the configure command ends. It's
easily missed and the user who doesn't have HarfBuzz ends up puzzled,
with a working emacs but one that looks unfamiliar and ugly.

If cairo has to be the default - and I don't understand why - is this
going to be emphasised in the INSTALL file of the subsequent distribution?

Best wishes,

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:21:37 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    Colin> The configure warning:

    Colin> "This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library,
    Colin> but not the HarfBuzz font shaping library.  We recommend the use
    Colin> of HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz development
    Colin> packages."

    Colin> occurs at the end of the list of configured options and then scrolls up
    Colin> disappearing from the screen before the configure command ends. It's
    Colin> easily missed and the user who doesn't have HarfBuzz ends up puzzled,
    Colin> with a working emacs but one that looks unfamiliar and ugly.

Not here itʼs not, itʼs the very last thing printed by configure, just
after the mailutils warning.

    Colin> If cairo has to be the default - and I don't understand why - is this
    Colin> going to be emphasised in the INSTALL file of the subsequent distribution?

Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is
unmaintained and causes crashes.

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:21:37 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    Colin> The configure warning:

    Colin> "This configuration uses the Cairo graphics library, but not
    Colin> the HarfBuzz font shaping library.  We recommend the use of
    Colin> HarfBuzz when using Cairo, please install HarfBuzz
    Colin> development packages."

    Colin> occurs at the end of the list of configured options and then
    Colin> scrolls up disappearing from the screen before the configure
    Colin> command ends. It's easily missed and the user who doesn't
    Colin> have HarfBuzz ends up puzzled, with a working emacs but one
    Colin> that looks unfamiliar and ugly.

    > Not here itʼs not, itʼs the very last thing printed by configure,
    > just after the mailutils warning.

Yes, you're right - my mistake.

    Colin> If cairo has to be the default - and I don't understand why -
    Colin> is this going to be emphasised in the INSTALL file of the
    Colin> subsequent distribution?

    > Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is
    > unmaintained and causes crashes.

Ok, so be it.

I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch out a fair
number of users. We will see.

Best wishes,

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    >> Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is
    >> unmaintained and causes crashes.

    Colin> Ok, so be it.

    Colin> I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch out a fair
    Colin> number of users. We will see.

Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from
bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might have
issues, and there should be not be too many of those.

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    >>> Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is
    >>> unmaintained and causes crashes.

    Colin> Ok, so be it.

    Colin> I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch
    Colin> out a fair number of users. We will see.

    > Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from
    > bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might
    > have issues, and there should be not be too many of those.

I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, although
Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz dev library, Debian
8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does seem that old.

Best wishes,

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:

    Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example, although
    Colin> Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz dev library, Debian
    Colin> 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does seem that old.

Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, people who
donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up continuing to
use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them.

Robert

PS Your CC is malformed: it has a stray comma in it.

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example,
    Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz
    Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does
    Colin> seem that old.

    > Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, people
    > who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up
    > continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them.

But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure
--without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from ./configure when
there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user who's always just done
./configure will see something different.

    > PS Your CC is malformed: it has a stray comma in it.

Yes, thanks. I haven't yet traced the reason.

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> "Colin" == Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example,
    Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz
    Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does
    Colin> seem that old.

    >> Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case,
    >> people who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up
    >> continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them.

    Colin> But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure
    Colin> --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from
    Colin> ./configure when there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user
    Colin> who's always just done ./configure will see something
    Colin> different.

    >> PS Your CC is malformed: it has a stray comma in it.

    Colin> Yes, thanks. I haven't yet traced the reason.


I have a serious flat-finger problem today!! What I meant to type is 

"emacs -q" from ./configure --without-cairo looks different from "emacs
-q" from ./configure when there are is NO harfbuzz dev lib.

Best wishes,

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:09:49 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:

    Colin> I have a serious flat-finger problem today!! What I meant to type is 

    Colin> "emacs -q" from ./configure --without-cairo looks different from "emacs
    Colin> -q" from ./configure when there are is NO harfbuzz dev lib.

That makes no difference to me: they still both look the same. What
differences are you seeing?

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

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>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:44:51 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example,
    Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz
    Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does
    Colin> seem that old.

    >> Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case, people
    >> who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end up
    >> continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for them.

    Colin> But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure
    Colin> --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from ./configure when
    Colin> there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user who's always just done
    Colin> ./configure will see something different.

Only if they then choose to use a font for which Xft gets things
wrong. If their existing font was fine (and not bitmapped), it will be
fine under Cairo.

Which of these two screenshots is --with-cairo, and which is without?
(both are using HarfBuzz)


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Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

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>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:44:51 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 13:01:29 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example,
    Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz
    Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does
    Colin> seem that old.

    >>> Debian stable is always pretty far behind, no? In any case,
    >>> people who donʼt have the right HarfBuzz library will just end
    >>> up continuing to use FLT like before, so nothing changes for
    >>> them.

    Colin> But this is not the case, surely. "emacs -q" from ./configure
    Colin> --without-cairo looks different from "emacs -q" from
    Colin> ./configure when there are is harfbuzz dev lib. The user
    Colin> who's always just done ./configure will see something
    Colin> different.

    > Only if they then choose to use a font for which Xft gets things
    > wrong. If their existing font was fine (and not bitmapped), it
    > will be fine under Cairo.

    > Which of these two screenshots is --with-cairo, and which is
    > without?  (both are using HarfBuzz)

I agree, yours look at same. Here at mine:

A. emacs1-splash.png; emacs1-scratch.png

./configure --without-cairo

B. emacs2-splash.png; emacs2-scratch.png

./configure

The configure options tell me I have no Harfbuzz and I get the no
"Harfbuzz" warning message.


I'm no expert, but to me, the fonts in B. look weaker than those in A.


Best wishes,



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Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:24:59 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    >> Only if they then choose to use a font for which Xft gets things
    >> wrong. If their existing font was fine (and not bitmapped), it
    >> will be fine under Cairo.

    >> Which of these two screenshots is --with-cairo, and which is
    >> without?  (both are using HarfBuzz)

    Colin> I agree, yours look at same. Here at mine:

    Colin> A. emacs1-splash.png; emacs1-scratch.png

    Colin> ./configure --without-cairo

    Colin> B. emacs2-splash.png; emacs2-scratch.png

    Colin> ./configure

    Colin> The configure options tell me I have no Harfbuzz and I get the no
    Colin> "Harfbuzz" warning message.

    Colin> I'm no expert, but to me, the fonts in B. look weaker than those in A.

To me they look slightly sharper. Tomayto, tomahto. I donʼt think
either look bad. (Iʼm assuming they're both using the same font).

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> "Robert" == Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:


    Robert> To me they look slightly sharper. Tomayto, tomahto. I donʼt
    Robert> think either look bad. (Iʼm assuming they're both using the
    Robert> same font).

    Robert> Robert

But there is a difference - slight perhaps - and I think some users will
notice and wonder why. Should they not be forewarned of the possibility,
or do you think that might cause even more confusion?

Best wishes,

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 16:47:47 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:

    Colin> But there is a difference - slight perhaps - and I think some users will
    Colin> notice and wonder why. Should they not be forewarned of the possibility,
    Colin> or do you think that might cause even more confusion?

Iʼm in the "leave it alone" camp, rather than talking about possible
display artifacts that people may not see (and, cynically, people
donʼt read NEWS before complaining anyway, the same way they donʼt
read PROBLEMS or look in the bug database).

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Yuri Khan]

On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 at 23:26, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> wrote:

> I agree, yours look at same. Here at mine:
>
> A. emacs1-splash.png; emacs1-scratch.png
>
> ./configure --without-cairo
>
> B. emacs2-splash.png; emacs2-scratch.png
>
> ./configure
>
> The configure options tell me I have no Harfbuzz and I get the no
> "Harfbuzz" warning message.
>
>
> I'm no expert, but to me, the fonts in B. look weaker than those in A.

I recognize the difference between your two sets of screenshots as
being caused by different hinting styles used by the two font
renderers. Those in A seem to use slight or no hinting. Those in B use
strong hinting.

On an X11/GNU/Linux desktop, hinting style can be configured in at
least three ways. One is via the Xft.hintstyle resource; another is
/etc/fonts/fonts.conf or one of the files included from it, typically
one of /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-hinting-{full,medium,none,slight}.conf;
and the third one is via the XSETTINGS protocol, provided by the
desktop environment and configured somewhere in its control panel.

For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and
would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong hinting
despite my configuration.

Re: cairo now default?

[Yuri Khan]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:02, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:

> For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and
> would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong hinting
> despite my configuration.

Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and
Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly
hinted just fine.

Re: cairo now default?

[Yuri Khan]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:32, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:

> Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and
> Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly
> hinted just fine.

And same with Cairo but no Harfbuzz. I am on Ubuntu 19.10 and using
parts of Xfce to provide XSETTINGS to applications.

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 00:43:11 +0700, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> said:

    Yuri> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:32, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and
    >> Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly
    >> hinted just fine.

    Yuri> And same with Cairo but no Harfbuzz. I am on Ubuntu 19.10 and using
    Yuri> parts of Xfce to provide XSETTINGS to applications.

Looking through the Emacs code, it does look at eg Xft/Hintstyle,
whether Cairo or libXft is in use, but then only applies those
settings when using Xft, so I suspect Cairo is doing the appropriate
setting of Hintstyle for us (but that probably means we'll ignore XSETTINGS).

Yamamoto-san, in 0701634aa7 you undid your original changes to have
the XSETTINGS apply when using Cairo. Is there a way to restore those?

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 17:30:47 +0900,
Robert Pluim wrote:
> 
> >>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 00:43:11 +0700, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> said:
> 
>     Yuri> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:32, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:
>     >> Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo and
>     >> Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders slightly
>     >> hinted just fine.
> 
>     Yuri> And same with Cairo but no Harfbuzz. I am on Ubuntu 19.10 and using
>     Yuri> parts of Xfce to provide XSETTINGS to applications.
> 
> Looking through the Emacs code, it does look at eg Xft/Hintstyle,
> whether Cairo or libXft is in use, but then only applies those
> settings when using Xft, so I suspect Cairo is doing the appropriate
> setting of Hintstyle for us (but that probably means we'll ignore XSETTINGS).
> 
> Yamamoto-san, in 0701634aa7 you undid your original changes to have
> the XSETTINGS apply when using Cairo. Is there a way to restore those?

Actually I'm really unfamiliar with hinting style and XSETTINGS stuff.
I'd appreciate it if someone could take over.

			     YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu
			mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 19:11:16 +0900, YAMAMOTO Mitsuharu <mituharu@math.s.chiba-u.ac.jp> said:

    YAMAMOTO> Actually I'm really unfamiliar with hinting style and XSETTINGS stuff.
    YAMAMOTO> I'd appreciate it if someone could take over.

Iʼm having a go, but Iʼm having a hard time getting FontConfig to
respect the settings I give it. Only 500 more fontconfig configuration
files to read....

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

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>>>>> Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> writes:

    > On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 at 00:02, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> wrote:
    >> For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and
    >> would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong
    >> hinting despite my configuration.

    > Also, I have just built Emacs 28.0.50 from Git master, with Cairo
    > and Harfbuzz, and on my system and my configuration it renders
    > slightly hinted just fine.

On another machine with Harfbuzz, and using M-x describe-char on the
first T in the scratch buffer:

A. With Harfbuzz but without cairo using "./configure --without-cairo <RET>"

xfthb:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-15-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x37)

This gives me the "without-cairo.png".

B. With Harfbuzz and cairo, using "./configure <RET>"

ftcrhb:-unknown-DejaVu Sans Mono-normal-normal-normal-*-15-*-*-*-m-0-iso10646-1 (#x37)

This gives me the "with-cairo.png".

Best wishes,

Colin.

P.S. Sorry about my typos.


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Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Wed, 29 Jan 2020 00:02:52 +0700, Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com> said:

    Yuri> I recognize the difference between your two sets of screenshots as
    Yuri> being caused by different hinting styles used by the two font
    Yuri> renderers. Those in A seem to use slight or no hinting. Those in B use
    Yuri> strong hinting.

    Yuri> On an X11/GNU/Linux desktop, hinting style can be configured in at
    Yuri> least three ways. One is via the Xft.hintstyle resource; another is
    Yuri> /etc/fonts/fonts.conf or one of the files included from it, typically
    Yuri> one of /etc/fonts/conf.d/10-hinting-{full,medium,none,slight}.conf;
    Yuri> and the third one is via the XSETTINGS protocol, provided by the
    Yuri> desktop environment and configured somewhere in its control panel.

    Yuri> For the record, I’m strongly in the slight hinting camp, and
    Yuri> would/will be much annoyed if/when Emacs decides to use strong hinting
    Yuri> despite my configuration.

If thatʼs what's going on, itʼs unintentional, and would need to be
fixed.

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

I can turn off hinting with

<match target="font">
 <edit name="hinting" mode="assign">
  <bool>false</bool>
 </edit>
 <edit name="autohint" mode="assign">
  <bool>false</bool>
 </edit>
 <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign">
  <const>hintnone</const>
 </edit>
</match>

in my ~/.fonts.conf. Thanks to
https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2009/04/17/ubuntu-font-hinting-you-a-cautionary-tale/.

:-) :-)

Best wishes,

Colin.

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 20:33:58 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:

    Colin> I can turn off hinting with
    Colin> <match target="font">
    Colin>  <edit name="hinting" mode="assign">
    Colin>   <bool>false</bool>
    Colin>  </edit>
    Colin>  <edit name="autohint" mode="assign">
    Colin>   <bool>false</bool>
    Colin>  </edit>
    Colin>  <edit name="hintstyle" mode="assign">
    Colin>   <const>hintnone</const>
    Colin>  </edit>
    Colin> </match>

    Colin> in my ~/.fonts.conf. Thanks to
    Colin> https://www.kilobitspersecond.com/2009/04/17/ubuntu-font-hinting-you-a-cautionary-tale/.

Based on <https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/cairo/cairo/issues/23>, it
appears that Cairo has issues with respecting fontconfig hintstyle
settings. Iʼm glad you found a combination that works.

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

    > Based on <https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/cairo/cairo/issues/23>,
    > it appears that Cairo has issues with respecting fontconfig
    > hintstyle settings. Iʼm glad you found a combination that works.

    > Robert

Thank you for the information; it's useful to know. And thank you for
your help and patience. 

Best Wishes,

Re: cairo now default?

[Colin Baxter]

>>>>> "Colin" == Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> writes:

>>>>> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 11:49:46 +0000, Colin Baxter <m43cap@yandex.com> said:
    >>>> Itʼs better than the alternative, which is libXft, which is
    >>>> unmaintained and causes crashes.

    Colin> Ok, so be it.

    Colin> I still think this change, as it stands, is going to catch
    Colin> out a fair number of users. We will see.

    >> Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from
    >> bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might
    >> have issues, and there should be not be too many of those.

    Colin> I was thinking of a rather more mundane reason. For example,
    Colin> although Debian 9.11 has the right version of the harfbuzz
    Colin> dev library, Debian 8.11 doesn't. To me, Debian 8.11 does
    Colin> seem that old.

    Colin> Best wishes,

To me, Debian 8.11 does not seem that old

Forgot the not!

Re: cairo now default?

[James Cloos]

>>>>> "RP" == Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:

RP> Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from
RP> bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might have
RP> issues, and there should be not be too many of those.

Are you certasin that the ~/.Xdefaults font syntax remains constant?

Last I looked pango and hb did not grok things like:

  Emacs.Font: CMU Typewriter Text-11.4:dpi=133

and I do not know about:

  Emacs.Font: DejaVu Sans Mono:pixelsize=20

And xft in general also supports things like:

  :pixelsize=20:matrix=0.6875 0.1875 0 1

which better enables matching when using sets of fallback fonts.

PanGo always avoided proper expresiveness and I doubt hb does any
better.

(And recall that I was one of the first to suggest having the equiv of
the modern --with-cairo as emacs' default, only to be harshly shot
down.  Like usual, someone else has done it w/o that complaint. :)

-JimC
-- 
James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com>         OpenPGP: 0x997A9F17ED7DAEA6

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 15:06:03 -0500, James Cloos <cloos@jhcloos.com> said:

>>>>> "RP" == Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
    RP> Why? Xft and Cairo should have the same font support, apart from
    RP> bitmap fonts. Only people who've messed with font-backend might have
    RP> issues, and there should be not be too many of those.

    James> Are you certasin that the ~/.Xdefaults font syntax remains constant?

    James> Last I looked pango and hb did not grok things like:

    James>   Emacs.Font: CMU Typewriter Text-11.4:dpi=133

    James> and I do not know about:

    James>   Emacs.Font: DejaVu Sans Mono:pixelsize=20

    James> And xft in general also supports things like:

    James>   :pixelsize=20:matrix=0.6875 0.1875 0 1

    James> which better enables matching when using sets of fallback fonts.

    James> PanGo always avoided proper expresiveness and I doubt hb does any
    James> better.

Emacs supports the FontConfig syntax for fonts, which allows all of
those except 'matrix'.

    James> (And recall that I was one of the first to suggest having the equiv of
    James> the modern --with-cairo as emacs' default, only to be harshly shot
    James> down.  Like usual, someone else has done it w/o that complaint. :)

No *prior* complaint :-)

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Eric S Fraga]

This has just caught me out today.

Can somebody recommend a font to use?  I have been using Hack but the comma (,) is invisible in this font with HarfBuzz/Cairo for some reason.

Thank you.
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.2.3 on Debian bullseye/sid

Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:08:33 +0000, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> said:

    Eric> This has just caught me out today.
    Eric> Can somebody recommend a font to use?  I have been using Hack but the comma (,) is invisible in this font with HarfBuzz/Cairo for some reason.

I donʼt see this, with Hack 3.0.3, cairo 1.16, Harfbuzz 2.6.1

Would you have a minimal test case?

Robert

Re: cairo now default?

[Fraga, Eric]

On Tuesday, 28 Jan 2020 at 15:58, Robert Pluim wrote:
>>>>>> On Tue, 28 Jan 2020 14:08:33 +0000, Eric S Fraga <e.fraga@ucl.ac.uk> said:
>
>     Eric> This has just caught me out today.
>     Eric> Can somebody recommend a font to use?  I have been using
>     Eric> Hack but the comma (,) is invisible in this font with
>     Eric> HarfBuzz/Cairo for some reason.
>
> I donʼt see this, with Hack 3.0.3, cairo 1.16, Harfbuzz 2.6.1

I have:

fonts-hack 3.003-3  
libharfbuzz-dev:amd64 2.6.4-1 
libcairo2-dev:amd64 1.16.0-4 

using Debian's numbering.

> Would you have a minimal test case?

I'll try when I'm back in my office later today hopefully.

Thank you.
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.3.1 on Debian bullseye/sid

Re: cairo now default?

[Eric S Fraga]

On Tuesday, 28 Jan 2020 at 15:58, Robert Pluim wrote:
> I donʼt see this, with Hack 3.0.3, cairo 1.16, Harfbuzz 2.6.1

And now, somehow, I don't see this either.  My commas are
back.  Apologies for the noise. :-(

Thank you.
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 28.0.50 & org 9.2.3 on Debian bullseye/sid

Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: cairo now default?

[Madhu]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 307 bytes --]


[sorry to hijack this thread] I'm seeing problems with the
SourceCodeVariable OTF fonts recently - I'm not sure if this is a
freetype bug - I'm only ever seeing this with emacs (all other programs
are unaffected) I'm posting a screenshot with emacs-gtk with cairo.
harfbuzz-2.6.4 cairo-1.16.0 gtk+-3.24.11

[-- Attachment #2: faulty font rendering --]
[-- Type: image/png, Size: 120867 bytes --]

Re: Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: cairo now default?

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Sat, 01 Feb 2020 21:12:19 +0530, Madhu <enometh@meer.net> said:

    Madhu> [sorry to hijack this thread] I'm seeing problems with the
    Madhu> SourceCodeVariable OTF fonts recently - I'm not sure if this is a
    Madhu> freetype bug - I'm only ever seeing this with emacs (all other programs
    Madhu> are unaffected) I'm posting a screenshot with emacs-gtk with cairo.
    Madhu> harfbuzz-2.6.4 cairo-1.16.0 gtk+-3.24.11

Iʼm not seeing this with SourceCodeVariable-Roman.otf from
<https://github.com/adobe-fonts/source-code-pro/releases/tag/variable-fonts>. Does
it persist with 'emacs -Q'?

Robert

Re: Problems with SourceCodeVariable [Re: cairo now default?

[Tassilo Horn]

Madhu <enometh@meer.net> writes:

> [sorry to hijack this thread] I'm seeing problems with the
> SourceCodeVariable OTF fonts recently - I'm not sure if this is a
> freetype bug - I'm only ever seeing this with emacs (all other
> programs are unaffected) I'm posting a screenshot with emacs-gtk with
> cairo.  harfbuzz-2.6.4 cairo-1.16.0 gtk+-3.24.11

I've had an issue with similar result (whitespace not displayed at all)
at work with IntelliJ IDEA, see:

  https://youtrack.jetbrains.com/issue/IDEA-230576

I haven't changed anything when that issue appeared although it is
possible that some font related package was upgraded.  (Currently I use
gtk3 3.24.13, cairo 1.17.2, harfbuzz 2.6.4.)  Nevertheless, the issue
persisted restarts of IDEA.  Only after I've deleted some IDEA-generated
project file (which actually has nothing to do with fonts at all) and
restarted, the issue disappeared.

On IRC I've read someone speaking about a similar issue before.

Long story short: it might be some issue with some underlying lib
because the issue has been observed in multiple programs.

Bye,
Tassilo