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From: Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com>
To: Ergus <spacibba@aol.com>, Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>, Bingo <right.ho@gmail.com>,
	emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: RE: delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions)
Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:34:14 -0700 (PDT)	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <cb9f5484-50b1-4c3e-b18c-fc113639ee0f@default> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20180909223317.h4bfzx4yjxeopfwq@Ergus>

> But the default experience is too different that most users feel
> scared and move to something "simpler". And we do nothing to avoid this;
> stating with the tutorial or the online documentation (where 99% of the
> users look for stuff and not in the self documentation, stackoverflow
> success is the prove that nobody reads the manuals or the full
> documentation in our days).

It's true that many users, particularly younger ones, do not look
first (or much) to the documentation these days. This is true
generally, not just for Emacs. It seems quicker and easier to
google, watch a video, or ask a question on a Q&A site.

That's not a reason not to continue having great documentation,
IMO. And the fact that a new Emacs user won't necessarily think
of or learn about `C-h m' etc. is not a reason not to continue to
have great doc strings and help commands.

And often the ultimate result of googling or posing a question
here or there is to end up at an Emacs manual. IOW, there needs
to be some real meat-and-bones content somewhere. And for
Emacs the main repositories of such content are (1) the code
itself, (2) the Emacs manual, and (3) the Elisp manual. (And
other Emacs manuals, such as Org.)

On sites like emacs.stackexchange, while providing an answer
to a question I, and others, generally try to also teach how to
ask questions of Emacs itself, including the help commands
and how to use the manual efficiently.

Emacs is different from many interactive interfaces for
developers in being particularly helpful and discoverable.
There's room for improvement, of course.

But the fact that new Emacs users might not know that
such self-help exists represents an opportunity to make it
more apparent. It's not a reason to put less emphasis on
the help and doc.

> There is not an interactive foro where users can make questions and
> answer each other actively, 

There are several, I think, from discussion sites such as reddit
to Q&A sites such as emacs.stackexchange. There is no GNU
forum, I guess. But I'm not convinced there needs to be one.



  reply	other threads:[~2018-09-09 23:34 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 78+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2018-09-08  3:49 delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Bingo
2018-09-08  7:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08  8:33   ` Bingo
2018-09-08  9:26     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-09 13:13       ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-09 14:53         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09 15:12         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-09 17:59         ` Ergus
2018-09-09 19:12           ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-09 22:33             ` Ergus
2018-09-09 23:34               ` Drew Adams [this message]
2018-09-11  4:22 ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-14 16:07   ` Emacs undo behavior frustrating for new users. (WAS: delete-selection-mode as default) Karl Fogel
2018-10-14 18:42     ` Emacs undo behavior frustrating for new users Stefan Monnier
2018-10-15  4:59       ` Karl Fogel
2018-10-15  6:11         ` Noel Taylor
2018-10-15  5:43     ` Emacs undo behavior frustrating for new users. (WAS: delete-selection-mode as default) Richard Stallman
2018-10-15  7:28       ` Van L
2018-10-16  6:44         ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-17 10:09           ` Nathan Moreau
2018-10-17 10:38             ` Emacs undo behavior frustrating for new users Andreas Schwab
2018-10-18  7:23               ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-17 12:00             ` Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-17 14:05               ` Nathan Moreau
2018-10-17 14:20                 ` Garreau, Alexandre
2018-10-17 14:33               ` Yuri Khan
2018-10-17 16:06                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-10-18  7:23                 ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-15  8:26       ` Emacs undo behavior frustrating for new users. (WAS: delete-selection-mode as default) Yuri Khan
2018-10-16  6:44         ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-16  7:22           ` Yuri Khan
2018-10-17  7:05             ` Richard Stallman
2018-10-20  8:15           ` Marcin Borkowski
2018-10-20 18:33             ` Elias Mårtenson
2018-10-15  7:54     ` Joost Kremers
2018-10-15  9:27       ` Joost Kremers
2018-10-15 12:01       ` Emacs undo behavior frustrating for new users Óscar Fuentes
2018-10-15 13:28         ` Joost Kremers
2018-10-16 12:27           ` Stefan Monnier
2018-10-17  7:05             ` Richard Stallman
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2018-09-08  3:46 delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Bingo
2018-09-07  0:32 Noam Postavsky
2018-09-07  0:35 ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07  6:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07  9:40   ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-07 13:41     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08 11:37       ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-08 14:04         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-07 15:35     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 16:16       ` Yuri Khan
2018-09-07 19:01   ` tomas
2018-09-07 19:23     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-07 20:28       ` tomas
2018-09-07 20:33     ` Noam Postavsky
2018-09-07 21:31       ` tomas
2018-09-09 13:45   ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-09 14:22     ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-09 15:12     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09 20:39   ` Joost Kremers
2018-09-09 22:24     ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10  3:08       ` Phil Sainty
2018-09-10  3:17         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10  5:15       ` Bingo
2018-09-10 18:16       ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-10 18:35         ` Clément Pit-Claudel
2018-09-10 19:19           ` Alan Mackenzie
2018-09-10 20:36         ` Drew Adams
2018-09-10  7:05     ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-11  4:22       ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-11  7:48         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-12  0:33           ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-11  8:08         ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-12  0:33           ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-12 14:07             ` Eli Zaretskii
2018-09-08  5:13 ` Richard Stallman
2018-09-08 14:54   ` Drew Adams
2018-09-09  1:23     ` Ergus
2018-09-08 17:25   ` Clément Pit-Claudel

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