From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Path: news.gmane.org!.POSTED!not-for-mail From: Drew Adams Newsgroups: gmane.emacs.devel Subject: RE: delete-selection-mode as default (WAS: Some developement questions) Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 16:34:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: References: <0CCFABF4-0F2B-4DAA-9C8E-11E1254A325E@gmail.com> <834lf0tptp.fsf@gnu.org> <41DF4279-89F4-413A-B3BC-63E9E9E98772@gmail.com> <8336uktk4s.fsf@gnu.org> <20180909131316.GA6047@ACM> <20180909175953.5nghqjofhliy6ve6@Ergus> <20180909191253.GD6047@ACM> <20180909223317.h4bfzx4yjxeopfwq@Ergus> NNTP-Posting-Host: blaine.gmane.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Trace: blaine.gmane.org 1536535951 677 195.159.176.226 (9 Sep 2018 23:32:31 GMT) X-Complaints-To: usenet@blaine.gmane.org NNTP-Posting-Date: Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:32:31 +0000 (UTC) Cc: Eli Zaretskii , Bingo , emacs-devel@gnu.org To: Ergus , Alan Mackenzie Original-X-From: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Mon Sep 10 01:32:26 2018 Return-path: Envelope-to: ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org Original-Received: from lists.gnu.org ([208.118.235.17]) by blaine.gmane.org with esmtp (Exim 4.84_2) (envelope-from ) id 1fz9Bq-0008WM-2T for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Mon, 10 Sep 2018 01:32:26 +0200 Original-Received: from localhost ([::1]:49037 helo=lists.gnu.org) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz9Dw-0003nd-JN for ged-emacs-devel@m.gmane.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 19:34:36 -0400 Original-Received: from eggs.gnu.org ([2001:4830:134:3::10]:54766) by lists.gnu.org with esmtp (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz9Dm-0003nM-Vh for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 19:34:27 -0400 Original-Received: from Debian-exim by eggs.gnu.org with spam-scanned (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz9Dm-0004ga-7I for emacs-devel@gnu.org; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 19:34:26 -0400 Original-Received: from aserp2120.oracle.com ([141.146.126.78]:58086) by eggs.gnu.org with esmtps (TLS1.0:RSA_AES_256_CBC_SHA1:32) (Exim 4.71) (envelope-from ) id 1fz9Di-0004fO-Je; Sun, 09 Sep 2018 19:34:22 -0400 Original-Received: from pps.filterd (aserp2120.oracle.com [127.0.0.1]) by aserp2120.oracle.com (8.16.0.22/8.16.0.22) with SMTP id w89NXoOc097081; Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:34:16 GMT DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=oracle.com; h=mime-version : message-id : date : from : sender : to : cc : subject : references : in-reply-to : content-type : content-transfer-encoding; s=corp-2018-07-02; bh=xsIEAiPWO81UpkCKRVH9YstmdWKH7r7afQ5c9wFPq5I=; b=fd3HR0kfU2wKINCpyzTCHm5EdK0sAgtBOXst/qsdPHncuB5890qm/uIwA5T7K/vcpOV/ o/zysIwDAfq/tlPWXQadDqqkmTDU9SwaJVP4umOZlpPeX5Nqo4PmJLZyevpOt+RmuY/0 25ScShyr2Vdg2yHQNZ9xXLiB7/T+PDib67u02kl4uiA6MidMEx5QOWL2bqtCSV75xUcy 6kkW2xsuaj1KSXGtowHZNflJVdavs/7ff8BP04pj8e2zKCYntst3FivysBbEUb1MtQjU NytETEyOSALys2NA0LcqPPWH870NbNFgHTh7F7gnnpyuTu8HmXff4344MRtI0CyzRP8P WQ== Original-Received: from userv0021.oracle.com (userv0021.oracle.com [156.151.31.71]) by aserp2120.oracle.com with ESMTP id 2mc6cpb320-1 (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 09 Sep 2018 23:34:16 +0000 Original-Received: from aserv0122.oracle.com (aserv0122.oracle.com [141.146.126.236]) by userv0021.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w89NYFD5001590 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 bits=256 verify=OK); Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:34:15 GMT Original-Received: from abhmp0014.oracle.com (abhmp0014.oracle.com [141.146.116.20]) by aserv0122.oracle.com (8.14.4/8.14.4) with ESMTP id w89NYFPS021194; Sun, 9 Sep 2018 23:34:15 GMT In-Reply-To: <20180909223317.h4bfzx4yjxeopfwq@Ergus> X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Oracle Beehive Extensions for Outlook 2.0.1.9.1 (1003210) [OL 16.0.4735.0 (x86)] X-Proofpoint-Virus-Version: vendor=nai engine=5900 definitions=9011 signatures=668708 X-Proofpoint-Spam-Details: rule=notspam policy=default score=0 suspectscore=0 malwarescore=0 phishscore=0 bulkscore=0 spamscore=0 mlxscore=0 mlxlogscore=716 adultscore=0 classifier=spam adjust=0 reason=mlx scancount=1 engine=8.0.1-1807170000 definitions=main-1809090256 X-detected-operating-system: by eggs.gnu.org: GNU/Linux 3.x [generic] X-Received-From: 141.146.126.78 X-BeenThere: emacs-devel@gnu.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.21 Precedence: list List-Id: "Emacs development discussions." List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Errors-To: emacs-devel-bounces+ged-emacs-devel=m.gmane.org@gnu.org Original-Sender: "Emacs-devel" Xref: news.gmane.org gmane.emacs.devel:229579 Archived-At: > But the default experience is too different that most users feel > scared and move to something "simpler". And we do nothing to avoid this; > stating with the tutorial or the online documentation (where 99% of the > users look for stuff and not in the self documentation, stackoverflow > success is the prove that nobody reads the manuals or the full > documentation in our days). It's true that many users, particularly younger ones, do not look first (or much) to the documentation these days. This is true generally, not just for Emacs. It seems quicker and easier to google, watch a video, or ask a question on a Q&A site. That's not a reason not to continue having great documentation, IMO. And the fact that a new Emacs user won't necessarily think of or learn about `C-h m' etc. is not a reason not to continue to have great doc strings and help commands. And often the ultimate result of googling or posing a question here or there is to end up at an Emacs manual. IOW, there needs to be some real meat-and-bones content somewhere. And for Emacs the main repositories of such content are (1) the code itself, (2) the Emacs manual, and (3) the Elisp manual. (And other Emacs manuals, such as Org.) On sites like emacs.stackexchange, while providing an answer to a question I, and others, generally try to also teach how to ask questions of Emacs itself, including the help commands and how to use the manual efficiently. Emacs is different from many interactive interfaces for developers in being particularly helpful and discoverable. There's room for improvement, of course. But the fact that new Emacs users might not know that such self-help exists represents an opportunity to make it more apparent. It's not a reason to put less emphasis on the help and doc. > There is not an interactive foro where users can make questions and > answer each other actively,=20 There are several, I think, from discussion sites such as reddit to Q&A sites such as emacs.stackexchange. There is no GNU forum, I guess. But I'm not convinced there needs to be one.