* emacs-win-builder @ 2016-08-30 19:47 Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-08-31 14:17 ` emacs-win-builder Eli Zaretskii 2016-08-31 21:45 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-08-30 19:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1866 bytes --] Hello. Here's something I would like to propose for inclusion into GNU Emacs early on, before it gets any contributors that didn't assign copyrights to FSF. Ladies and gentlemen, presenting emacs-win-builder, an Elisp script for building Emacs on Windows. Currently I published it here <https://github.com/sg2002/emacs-win-builder>. The general idea is very simple. You start with only wget installed and Emacs sources, run a single function and get a new version of Emacs built for you. This installs the appropriate toolchain(MinGW and Msys2 are both supported), then goes through the whole autogen -> configure -> make -> make install cycle. I believe this would save some time, both for maintainers of Emacs on Windows and general users. This also allows Emacs developers to keep the build procedure as complex as required, without having to worry about making it too hard for users to follow. Also, this lowers the dependency on any toolchain, since we can always add some of our own patches or non standard versions of packages into the process(MinGW build already uses quite few of them). People who want to hack around the build process would always have a working place to start from. Also users would be able to test bug fixes immediately without having to wait for a third party or the next RC. Currently there are a few hacky pats, some parts should be better documented, but the main build procedure works for every currently possible build. Out of optional things, for MinGW only gnutls is currently built, but this is solvable. Also, I'm not so sure on the versions of MinGW libraries, this needs review from someone with better knowledge. I haven't thoroughly tested the resulting builds, but since this script does not do any magic, any possible problems with them seem solvable. -- Best Regards, Nikolay Kudryavtsev [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 2345 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-win-builder 2016-08-30 19:47 emacs-win-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-08-31 14:17 ` Eli Zaretskii 2016-09-01 12:39 ` emacs-win-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-08-31 21:45 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-08-31 14:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nikolay Kudryavtsev; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev <nikolay.kudryavtsev@gmail.com> > Date: Tue, 30 Aug 2016 22:47:48 +0300 > > Ladies and gentlemen, presenting emacs-win-builder, an Elisp script for building Emacs on Windows. Currently I published it here. > > The general idea is very simple. You start with only wget installed and Emacs sources, run a single function and get a new version of Emacs built for you. This installs the appropriate toolchain(MinGW and Msys2 are both supported), then goes through the whole autogen -> configure -> make -> make install cycle. > > I believe this would save some time, both for maintainers of Emacs on Windows and general users. This also allows Emacs developers to keep the build procedure as complex as required, without having to worry about making it too hard for users to follow. Also, this lowers the dependency on any toolchain, since we can always add some of our own patches or non standard versions of packages into the process(MinGW build already uses quite few of them). People who want to hack around the build process would always have a working place to start from. Also users would be able to test bug fixes immediately without having to wait for a third party or the next RC. > > Currently there are a few hacky pats, some parts should be better documented, but the main build procedure works for every currently possible build. Out of optional things, for MinGW only gnutls is currently built, but this is solvable. Also, I'm not so sure on the versions of MinGW libraries, this needs review from someone with better knowledge. I haven't thoroughly tested the resulting builds, but since this script does not do any magic, any possible problems with them seem solvable. Thanks. I have no problem with offering this in nt/ as an alternative build method, provided that it is mentioned in nt/INSTALL and nt/INSTALL.W64. I have a few comments to the script and its concept: . It invokes MSYS programs from a (presumably) native Emacs, something that might not necessarily work, depending on the end-user setup. E.g., on my systems, MSYS can only work when invoked from the MSYS Bash window. Caveat emptor! . Your function that invokes the various commands ignores the return value of process-file-shell-command, so if some part of the build fails, the script will happily continue invoking the rest of the build commands regardless. Also, it looks like the output of the build commands is not shown as the build proceeds, which means the user is building blind and cannot interrupt a runaway build. Wouldn't it be better to use start-file-process instead? . The list of dependencies to download should IMO be on a separate file and in a format that can be easily changed by someone who is not too proficient in Lisp, because the dependencies change and their versions change even more frequently. The repeated portions of the URLs of the download sites could also be specified only once in that separate file. . Various versions of 7z are not Free Software, so I think we'd prefer to use bsdtar from libarchive instead. As a bonus, users will be saved from the UAC elevation prompts when installing the package (at least with libarchive available from the ezwinports site). . This comment: (process-file-shell-command (concat "\"" (ewb-get-wget) "\" --no-check-certificate " file ;; ezwinports version of wget needs -O flag ;; otherwise it saves files as "download" " -O" file-name) nil "ewb") made me raise my brow: I use that version of wget all the time, and it certainly does NOT save files as "download". So some other factor is at work here, most probably the download URLs that all end in "/download". A better URL is something like this: http://downloads.sourceforge.net/project/ezwinports/FILE where FILE is the file you want to download, like zlib-1.2.8-2-w32-bin.zip. . Last but not least: AFAIK, Windows will not allow you to install executables and DLLs that overwrite running modules. So, for example, running "make install" from an Emacs that lives in the same directory as where "make install" will copy the newly-built executable will fail, and I think likewise with DLLs that are in use by the running Emacs process. Users should be aware of that caveat, and maybe the script should install in some staging area, leaving it to the user to copy to the final destination after exiting Emacs. Thanks again for working on this. I urge people here to try your script and return feedback. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-win-builder 2016-08-31 14:17 ` emacs-win-builder Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-09-01 12:39 ` Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-09-01 14:05 ` emacs-win-builder Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-09-01 12:39 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2541 bytes --] > E.g., on my systems, MSYS can only work when invoked from the MSYS Bash window. That's interesting. What's the possible breaking point here? Assuming that we clear our exec-path, use bash.exe from msys directory and add whatever necessary to the process environment, I could not think of anything that should break here, that's not easily fixable. > Wouldn't it be better to use start-file-process instead? Yes, I'm planning to fix that. Just wanted to have this ready for testing ASAP. > The list of dependencies to download should IMO be on a separate file. Was thinking of doing that too. Will do. > The repeated portions of the URLs of the download sites could also be specified only once in that separate file. Great idea. Gonna implement that. > Various versions of 7z are not Free Software, so I think we'd prefer to use bsdtar from libarchive instead. Well, 7z is lGPL 2.1 with unrar exception and IMHO that's one of the cases where having non-free code is ethical. But, I do understand those who disagree. The practical reason why 7z is used there, is that I wanted to limit the need for manual user action. Since 7z is distributed as exe, you can install it from a script. For libarchive we would need some way to extract zip files first. GnuWin provides a setup version of unzip <http://gnuwin32.sourceforge.net/packages/unzip.htm>, so I guess that would be one option. > So some other factor is at work here, most probably the download URLs that all end in "/download". Yep. I missed that sourceforge does a redirect from filename too. Will fix. > install in some staging area, leaving it to the user to copy to the final destination after exiting Emacs. Or maybe install into staging area, then try to copy to the final destination? Alert when fail. Gonna implement some solution to that end, since this is something that would happen from time to time. Eli, I also have a couple questions for you and maybe other people who may have that knowledge. First, what would be some reasonable optimization profiles. I think we all agree that we want to have something with debug information as default. So what would be the best flags here? And then there should be an option to make an optimized build, what would be the best flags for it? Also I do "--enable-checking='yes,glyphs' --enable-check-lisp-object-type" everywhere. Just in case, is keeping those flags everywhere safe? Also, are there any other configure related options we may want to implement? -- Best Regards, Nikolay Kudryavtsev [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 3612 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-win-builder 2016-09-01 12:39 ` emacs-win-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-09-01 14:05 ` Eli Zaretskii 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-09-01 14:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nikolay Kudryavtsev; +Cc: emacs-devel > From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev <nikolay.kudryavtsev@gmail.com> > Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org > Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2016 15:39:42 +0300 > > E.g., on my systems, MSYS can only work when invoked from the MSYS Bash > window. > > That's interesting. What's the possible breaking point here? Assuming that we clear our exec-path, use > bash.exe from msys directory and add whatever necessary to the process environment, I could not think of > anything that should break here, that's not easily fixable. Mainly, PATH (in process-environment) vs exec-path, which is exacerbated by MSYS remapping of /usr etc. to Windows directory structure. I think you worked around that for the case that MinGW and MSYS are installed as part of your script, but you cannot possibly do that reliably for a system where both are already installed. E.g., on my system, MSYS and MinGW are in two separate trees, side by side, and there's no easy way for you to know how MSYS /usr/bin is remapped to its Windows name. > For libarchive we would need some way to extract zip files > first. GnuWin provides a setup version of unzip, so I guess that > would be one option. Doesn't w32-shell-execute work? The Explorer can unzip archives, so perhaps this could be an alternative, if it works. > First, what would be some reasonable optimization profiles. I think we all agree that we want to have > something with debug information as default. So what would be the best flags here? And then there should be > an option to make an optimized build, what would be the best flags for it? I use "-O0 -gdwarf-2 -g3" for debug builds, and "-O2 -gdwarf-2 -g3" (or even -gdwarf-4 for GCC 5 and later) for optimized builds. GNU projects normally do "make install-strip" for the official releases and "make install" for pretests and snapshots, so my advice would be to do that here as well. > Also I do > "--enable-checking='yes,glyphs' --enable-check-lisp-object-type" > everywhere. It's a good idea in pretests and snapshots, but I think you should remove it for official releases. They just make Emacs slower, which is not a good thing in production. > Also, are there any other configure related options we may want to implement? The --with-modules switch comes to mind, but that's all. For 32-bit builds, I'd also recommend --with-wide-int, but I know some people disagree. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-08-30 19:47 emacs-win-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-08-31 14:17 ` emacs-win-builder Eli Zaretskii @ 2016-08-31 21:45 ` Richard Stallman 2016-09-01 8:37 ` emacs-losedows-builder Simon Friis Vindum 2016-09-01 12:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 1 sibling, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-08-31 21:45 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nikolay Kudryavtsev; +Cc: emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Our policy is not to refer to Windows by a term of praise such as 'win'. Since that script is for building on Windows, please replace 'win' with 'windows' or 'losedows'. Windows is a double injustice -- it is proprietary and it is malware. (See http://gnu.org/proprietary/malware-microsoft.html.) We incorporate users' changes for running on Windows, and if the Emacs developers like your changes, we can include them too. But we must always teach people that _Windows is a bad thing_. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-08-31 21:45 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-01 8:37 ` Simon Friis Vindum 2016-09-01 18:54 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-01 12:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Simon Friis Vindum @ 2016-09-01 8:37 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: Nikolay Kudryavtsev, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 246 bytes --] On Aug 31, 2016 11:45 PM, "Richard Stallman" <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > But we must always teach people that _Windows is a bad thing_. I think we would be teaching that in a more effective and civil way if we refrained from name calling/nicknaming. [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 335 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-01 8:37 ` emacs-losedows-builder Simon Friis Vindum @ 2016-09-01 18:54 ` Richard Stallman 2016-09-01 23:17 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov 2016-09-02 1:05 ` emacs-losedows-builder John Wiegley 0 siblings, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-01 18:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Simon Friis Vindum; +Cc: nikolay.kudryavtsev, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I think we would be teaching that in a more effective and civil way if we > refrained from name calling/nicknaming. Name-calling is a very effective method for spreading the idea that something is evil -- in this case Windows. Since Microsoft is so much more powerful than we are, and has many weapons that are not available to us, I don't think we should feel obliged to tie our mouths behind our backs. Contrariwise, pleasant nicknames such as "win" tend to act as support. That's why we don't refer to Windows as "win". -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-01 18:54 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-01 23:17 ` Dmitry Gutov 2016-09-02 1:36 ` emacs-losedows-builder Paul Eggert 2016-09-02 13:10 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 1:05 ` emacs-losedows-builder John Wiegley 1 sibling, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2016-09-01 23:17 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms, Simon Friis Vindum; +Cc: nikolay.kudryavtsev, emacs-devel Hello Richard, On 01.09.2016 21:54, Richard Stallman wrote: > Name-calling is a very effective method for spreading the idea that > something is evil -- in this case Windows. Not when doing so makes us appear childish. People are less inclined to heed warnings from those who they do not take seriously. And in this case, there's no "meat" to the message. Just name-calling. > Contrariwise, pleasant nicknames such as "win" tend to act as support. > That's why we don't refer to Windows as "win". Let's call it "windows", then. Though I cannot think of a time when I've read e.g. "win32" and made an association with "win" as in "victory". Or if I did, it didn't make me think about Windows better anyway (and I've used it for years). Best regards, Dmitry. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-01 23:17 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov @ 2016-09-02 1:36 ` Paul Eggert 2016-09-12 17:14 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-09-02 13:10 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Paul Eggert @ 2016-09-02 1:36 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov, rms, Simon Friis Vindum; +Cc: nikolay.kudryavtsev, emacs-devel Dmitry Gutov wrote: > Let's call it "windows", then. In the rest of Emacs we typically call it MS-Windows, to distinguish it from other windowing systems like X. So I suggest using "ms-windows" in the name, instead of just "windows". ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-02 1:36 ` emacs-losedows-builder Paul Eggert @ 2016-09-12 17:14 ` Nikolay Kudryavtsev 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-09-12 17:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Paul Eggert; +Cc: emacs-devel Ok, will rename to ms-windows-builder, just in case, plus two letter namespace is to much for a project like this(mwb > wb). -- Best Regards, Nikolay Kudryavtsev ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-01 23:17 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov 2016-09-02 1:36 ` emacs-losedows-builder Paul Eggert @ 2016-09-02 13:10 ` Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 13:19 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov 2016-09-02 14:15 ` emacs-losedows-builder Kaushal Modi 1 sibling, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-02 13:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: simonfv, nikolay.kudryavtsev, emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Not when doing so makes us appear childish. Perhaps you underestimate the political power of derision. Or perhaps you think of Microsoft as a competitor that deserves respect, rather than as an enemy that has subjugated millions of people. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-02 13:10 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-02 13:19 ` Dmitry Gutov 2016-09-02 14:15 ` emacs-losedows-builder Kaushal Modi 1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Dmitry Gutov @ 2016-09-02 13:19 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: simonfv, nikolay.kudryavtsev, emacs-devel On 02.09.2016 16:10, Richard Stallman wrote: > > Not when doing so makes us appear childish. > > Perhaps you underestimate the political power of derision. Or perhaps > you think of Microsoft as a competitor that deserves respect, rather > than as an enemy that has subjugated millions of people. No, I just mean that there are different classes of insults. If we employ phrases typically used by children (I'm exaggerating a bit here), it makes us look less intelligent/trustworthy/etc. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-02 13:10 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 13:19 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov @ 2016-09-02 14:15 ` Kaushal Modi 2016-09-02 17:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Copley 2016-09-02 18:46 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 2 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Kaushal Modi @ 2016-09-02 14:15 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms, Dmitry Gutov; +Cc: simonfv, nikolay.kudryavtsev, emacs-devel [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1117 bytes --] On Fri, Sep 2, 2016, 7:12 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > Or perhaps > you think of Microsoft as a competitor that deserves respect, rather > than as an enemy that has subjugated millions of people. > Actually before you brought this up, I never thought of the "win" part in Windows could mean any respect at all. "Win" gives a positive message probably just in English language and happens to be the first part of the word windows. This kind of micro-digging to find ways of name calling the competitor does not suit well to our community. If we should find and advertise tangible reasons to why we are better than the competitor. For all many would care, windows might as well be foodows, and the code in the patch used foo- instead of win-. That "win-" part means nothing else than happening to be the first part of Windows. Victory flags do not go waving in my mind when I read some code with "win-". I believe such trivial refactoring feedback would be demoralizing to contributors. But I agree with the similar change suggested by Glenn on the grounds of coding consistency. > -- Kaushal Modi [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1711 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-02 14:15 ` emacs-losedows-builder Kaushal Modi @ 2016-09-02 17:44 ` Richard Copley 2016-09-03 12:02 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 18:46 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Copley @ 2016-09-02 17:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kaushal Modi Cc: simonfv, Emacs Development, Richard Stallman, nikolay.kudryavtsev, Dmitry Gutov On 2 September 2016 at 15:15, Kaushal Modi <kaushal.modi@gmail.com> wrote: > > > On Fri, Sep 2, 2016, 7:12 AM Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: >> >> Or perhaps >> you think of Microsoft as a competitor that deserves respect, rather >> than as an enemy that has subjugated millions of people. > > > Actually before you brought this up, I never thought of the "win" part in > Windows could mean any respect at all. "Win" gives a positive message > probably just in English language and happens to be the first part of the > word windows. This kind of micro-digging to find ways of name calling the > competitor does not suit well to our community. If we should find and > advertise tangible reasons to why we are better than the competitor. > > For all many would care, windows might as well be foodows, and the code in > the patch used foo- instead of win-. That "win-" part means nothing else > than happening to be the first part of Windows. Victory flags do not go > waving in my mind when I read some code with "win-". I believe such trivial > refactoring feedback would be demoralizing to contributors. I agree. The ancestor of the word "window" came from words meaning "wind" and "eye", according to the OED, but it's natural and near-universal to treat it as an atomic unit. There's no particular need to use "win" as an abbreviation and it's not very pleasing, so I don't mind trying to avoid it. The exception is when referring to Win32 (the subsystem, the API or whatever). That's its name and it's silly to call it anything else. > But I agree with the similar change suggested by Glenn on the grounds of > coding consistency. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-02 17:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Copley @ 2016-09-03 12:02 ` Richard Stallman 2016-09-04 6:51 ` emacs-losedows-builder Tim Cross 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-03 12:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Copley Cc: simonfv, emacs-devel, dgutov, nikolay.kudryavtsev, kaushal.modi [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] It is GNU policy to avoid the abbreviation "win32". We say "Windows32". -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-03 12:02 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-04 6:51 ` Tim Cross 2016-09-04 13:48 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Tim Cross @ 2016-09-04 6:51 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms Cc: simonfv, Dmitry Gutov, Emacs developers, Richard Copley, kaushal.modi, nikolay.kudryavtsev [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1031 bytes --] This reminds me of arguments from the 70s with the growth of feminism. At the time, there were some in the feminist movement who argued to ban the use of "man" even when the roots of the word had nothing to do with gender. It certainly didn't benefit the movement or help gain credibility - in the main it was seen as somewhat ridiculous and if anything gave ammunition to the anti-feminist movement. I fear this discussion will do the same. On 3 September 2016 at 22:02, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote: > [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] > [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] > [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > It is GNU policy to avoid the abbreviation "win32". > We say "Windows32". > > -- > Dr Richard Stallman > President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) > Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) > Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. > > > -- regards, Tim -- Tim Cross [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 1954 bytes --] ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-04 6:51 ` emacs-losedows-builder Tim Cross @ 2016-09-04 13:48 ` Richard Stallman 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-04 13:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Tim Cross Cc: simonfv, dgutov, emacs-devel, rcopley, kaushal.modi, nikolay.kudryavtsev [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > This reminds me of arguments from the 70s with the growth of feminism. At > the time, there were some in the feminist movement who argued to ban the > use of "man" even when the roots of the word had nothing to do with gender. The GNU Project has a policy of not using the term "win" in its publications to refer to Microsoft Windows. To be comparable to that 70s example, one would have to demand stridently that everyone discard the word "winnow" and replace it with "losenow", and likewise replace the name "Winchester" with "Losechester". The similarity is obvious, but the differences overshadow it. It is not surprising that one reminded you of the other, despite the differences, because one similar element is enough to make an association. That is why we have so many mental associations. A song says, "Einstein reminds me of my dog." I am sure the singer did not intend that she should treat her dog like Einstein, or treat Einstein like her dog. > in the > main it was seen as somewhat ridiculous and if anything gave ammunition to > the anti-feminist movement. I fear this discussion will do the same. Since the two situations are so different, why why expect people to respond the same way to both? That would be irrational. Irrationality does occur -- but why expect this particular irrationality? It would become likely only if there were a campaign to distort the issue: to hype the similarity and distract attention from the differences. I trust you won't support such a campaign. We have had this policy of avoiding the term "win32" for at least 15 years. So far it has not generated a disastrous wave of irrationality. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-02 14:15 ` emacs-losedows-builder Kaushal Modi 2016-09-02 17:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Copley @ 2016-09-02 18:46 ` Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 20:12 ` emacs-losedows-builder Emanuel Berg 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-02 18:46 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Kaushal Modi; +Cc: simonfv, emacs-devel, nikolay.kudryavtsev, dgutov [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > "Win" gives a positive message > probably just in English language English is the principal language of computing, and the principal language of the GNU Project's communications. The text in the Emacs distribution is nearly all in English. Thus, what things mean or suggest in English is of paramount importance. But you might not know that in the hacker community "Win!" is used as an exclamation meaning "Great!" or "What a success!" We are not going to say that about a proprietary program. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-02 18:46 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-02 20:12 ` Emanuel Berg 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Emanuel Berg @ 2016-09-02 20:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: emacs-devel Richard Stallman wrote: > English is the principal language of > computing Indeed. People who speak English as their first language sometimes express understanding when people do documentation in their own, non-English languages or even write comments or code in some language other than English. While I understand the desire to be non-nationalistic and non-whatever this is an incorrect approach. To have people be anything less than fluent in (written) English is to wish for them never to reach their potential as hackers, for their programs never to reach the global village of computing... Ah, what I mean to say is: not good! Note that this doesn't mean books (manuals), webpages and perhaps some parts of documentation shouldn't be translated and/or produced in different languages. E.g., books that can end up in public libraries should be translated - I know the "book flow" so let me tell you, even books in very wierd subjects end up in public libraries, if they are in the spoken language of that country! This is more like a "charm offensive" tho - to attract complete newcomers etc. and give the movement as broad as surface as possible to the general public - to give them a soft start - for anyone aspiring to dig deep it should be clear he or she needs to pick up English, starting today... And the best way to do it is to do it while doing computing! As always, you shouldn't let school disturb you studies! -- underground experts united .... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573 Emacs Gnus Blogomatic ......... http://user.it.uu.se/~embe8573/blogomatic - so far: 68 Blogomatic articles - ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-01 18:54 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-01 23:17 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov @ 2016-09-02 1:05 ` John Wiegley 1 sibling, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: John Wiegley @ 2016-09-02 1:05 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: Simon Friis Vindum, nikolay.kudryavtsev, emacs-devel >>>>> "RS" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes: RS> Name-calling is a very effective method for spreading the idea that RS> something is evil -- in this case Windows. Since Microsoft is so much more RS> powerful than we are, and has many weapons that are not available to us, I RS> don't think we should feel obliged to tie our mouths behind our backs. I disagree with this sentiment, Richard. Name-calling hurts your cause, it does not help it. -- John Wiegley GPG fingerprint = 4710 CF98 AF9B 327B B80F http://newartisans.com 60E1 46C4 BD1A 7AC1 4BA2 ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-08-31 21:45 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-01 8:37 ` emacs-losedows-builder Simon Friis Vindum @ 2016-09-01 12:44 ` Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-09-01 18:55 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 1 sibling, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-09-01 12:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel Hello, Richard. Ok, will rename it to windows-builder. As a non-native english speaker, I'm sometimes baffled, how pun-centric the anglophonic humor(and culture in general) is. -- Best Regards, Nikolay Kudryavtsev ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-01 12:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-09-01 18:55 ` Richard Stallman 2016-09-12 17:43 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 0 siblings, 1 reply; 23+ messages in thread From: Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-01 18:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Nikolay Kudryavtsev; +Cc: emacs-devel [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Ok, will rename it to windows-builder. Thank you. > As a non-native english speaker, I'm sometimes baffled, how pun-centric > the anglophonic humor(and culture in general) is. Do people not make puns in your language? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (gnu.org, fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (internethalloffame.org) Skype: No way! See stallman.org/skype.html. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
* Re: emacs-losedows-builder 2016-09-01 18:55 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman @ 2016-09-12 17:43 ` Nikolay Kudryavtsev 0 siblings, 0 replies; 23+ messages in thread From: Nikolay Kudryavtsev @ 2016-09-12 17:43 UTC (permalink / raw) To: rms; +Cc: emacs-devel My native language is Russian. You can make puns in Russian, but to me it seems like they're utilized not as often as in English. At this point I think I've seen more puns in English, than in Russian. Of course I may be wrong here... Actually a large percentage of puns, that I could remember, are parts of Seventeen Moments of Spring jokes. There are hundreds of those jokes. Seventeen Moments of Spring was a Soviet TV miniseries where the thoughts of the main character were often narrated to the audience in third person, so those jokes often build on that. -- Best Regards, Nikolay Kudryavtsev ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 23+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2016-09-12 17:43 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 23+ messages (download: mbox.gz follow: Atom feed -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2016-08-30 19:47 emacs-win-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-08-31 14:17 ` emacs-win-builder Eli Zaretskii 2016-09-01 12:39 ` emacs-win-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-09-01 14:05 ` emacs-win-builder Eli Zaretskii 2016-08-31 21:45 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-01 8:37 ` emacs-losedows-builder Simon Friis Vindum 2016-09-01 18:54 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-01 23:17 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov 2016-09-02 1:36 ` emacs-losedows-builder Paul Eggert 2016-09-12 17:14 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-09-02 13:10 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 13:19 ` emacs-losedows-builder Dmitry Gutov 2016-09-02 14:15 ` emacs-losedows-builder Kaushal Modi 2016-09-02 17:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Copley 2016-09-03 12:02 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-04 6:51 ` emacs-losedows-builder Tim Cross 2016-09-04 13:48 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 18:46 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-02 20:12 ` emacs-losedows-builder Emanuel Berg 2016-09-02 1:05 ` emacs-losedows-builder John Wiegley 2016-09-01 12:44 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev 2016-09-01 18:55 ` emacs-losedows-builder Richard Stallman 2016-09-12 17:43 ` emacs-losedows-builder Nikolay Kudryavtsev
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox; as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).