Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Po Lu]

I skimmed through the new manual section for reader shorthands today.
It seems to be a very nice feature, but I don't think it's quite right
to have the file-local variable for shorthands named `elisp-shorthands'.

AFAIU, the only variables that are currently prefixed with `elisp-'
involve editing support for Emacs Lisp such as
`elisp-byte-code-mode-hook', et cetera.

How about something like `read-shorthands' instead?  Thanks.

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[João Távora]

On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:08 AM Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>
> I skimmed through the new manual section for reader shorthands today.
> It seems to be a very nice feature, but I don't think it's quite right
> to have the file-local variable for shorthands named `elisp-shorthands'.
>
> AFAIU, the only variables that are currently prefixed with `elisp-'
> involve editing support for Emacs Lisp such as
> `elisp-byte-code-mode-hook', et cetera.
>
> How about something like `read-shorthands' instead?  Thanks.

No objections.

João

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Stefan Kangas]

João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> writes:

>> I skimmed through the new manual section for reader shorthands today.
>> It seems to be a very nice feature, but I don't think it's quite right
>> to have the file-local variable for shorthands named `elisp-shorthands'.
>>
>> AFAIU, the only variables that are currently prefixed with `elisp-'
>> involve editing support for Emacs Lisp such as
>> `elisp-byte-code-mode-hook', et cetera.
>>
>> How about something like `read-shorthands' instead?  Thanks.
>
> No objections.

Naming is hard, and I don't want to bikeshed about this.

But consider that most current variables matching "^read-" has something
to do something to do with reading input from the user, IOW more with
e.g. "read-key" than "read".

Also, unlike "read-shorthands", "elisp-shorthands" immediately tells
even the most casual reader that this has something to do with ELisp.

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Po Lu]

Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

> But consider that most current variables matching "^read-" has something
> to do something to do with reading input from the user, IOW more with
> e.g. "read-key" than "read".

That is reasonable.  How about `symbol-shorthands', or
`reader-shorthands'?  Or, as it is a file-local variable, simply
`file-shorthands'?

Or even just `shorthands'?

Thanks.

> Also, unlike "read-shorthands", "elisp-shorthands" immediately tells
> even the most casual reader that this has something to do with ELisp.

Yes, but when I see a variable prefixed with "elisp-", I assume it is
related to Emacs Lisp editing support.

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[João Távora]

Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:

> Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:
>
>> But consider that most current variables matching "^read-" has something
>> to do something to do with reading input from the user, IOW more with
>> e.g. "read-key" than "read".

In Common Lisp and Lisp languages reading things is always prefixed
"read", whether from the user or from streams.  There are many variables
that influence the reader this process and they are traditionally
prefixed 'read' (or *READ-...* in CL's case).  Elisp has slightly
bastardized with things that do not directly influence the Lisp reader,
but other readers.

But Elisp still keeps 'read-circle' and 'read-with-symbol-positions',
for example for controlling the Lisp reader.  So I think Po Lu's
suggestion of 'read-shorthands' is spot-on.

João

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>,  emacs-devel
>  <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 19:23:54 +0800
> 
> Yes, but when I see a variable prefixed with "elisp-", I assume it is
> related to Emacs Lisp editing support.

Which it is, don't you agree?

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 14:48:58 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org, stefankangas@gmail.com, joaotavora@gmail.com
> 
> > From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> > Cc: João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com>,  emacs-devel
> >  <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> > Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 19:23:54 +0800
> > 
> > Yes, but when I see a variable prefixed with "elisp-", I assume it is
> > related to Emacs Lisp editing support.
> 
> Which it is, don't you agree?

Or how about elisp-symbol-shorthands?

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Po Lu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> Which it is, don't you agree?

I think I should rephrase what I said earlier.  I don't agree that it
applies to what currently uses the `elisp' prefix, which is currently
used by the likes of `elisp-byte-code-mode', and the `elisp-xref--'
group of variables.

> Or how about elisp-symbol-shorthands?

That still has the `elisp' prefix, while something like
`read-shorthands' would be consistent with (as discussed further up this
thread) the `read-circle' and `read-symbol-positions-list' variables we
already have.  Not to mention it would be somewhat more consistent with
the plethora of print-XXX variables.

Thanks.

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
> Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com,  stefankangas@gmail.com,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:02:57 +0800
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> > Which it is, don't you agree?
> 
> I think I should rephrase what I said earlier.  I don't agree that it
> applies to what currently uses the `elisp' prefix, which is currently
> used by the likes of `elisp-byte-code-mode', and the `elisp-xref--'
> group of variables.
> 
> > Or how about elisp-symbol-shorthands?
> 
> That still has the `elisp' prefix

But this feature is specific to Elisp, isn't it?

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[João Távora]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>> From: Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com>
>> Cc: joaotavora@gmail.com,  stefankangas@gmail.com,  emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2021 20:02:57 +0800
>> 
>> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
>> 
>> > Which it is, don't you agree?
>> 
>> I think I should rephrase what I said earlier.  I don't agree that it
>> applies to what currently uses the `elisp' prefix, which is currently
>> used by the likes of `elisp-byte-code-mode', and the `elisp-xref--'
>> group of variables.
>> 
>> > Or how about elisp-symbol-shorthands?
>> 
>> That still has the `elisp' prefix
>
> But this feature is specific to Elisp, isn't it?

The most common use of it is for programming Elisp, yes, like the most
common use of the Lisp printer that comes with Emacs is also for Elisp.
So after some thought, I would answer "no" here.  They can be used for
reading and printing things in other contexts where Lisp symbols are
treated as data.

But even if they aren't used in these ways, just the coherence to the
'print-*' variables and the existing 'read-*' variables is enough for
me.

João

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Po Lu]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> But this feature is specific to Elisp, isn't it?

Yes, to the best of my knowledge.  (Though one of the non-free Common
Lisp implementations has something similar, I can't remember which)

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

I think that "shorthands" is not the most natural term for these.
Our usual term for this sort of thing is "abbreviation".

I think `symbol-prefix-abbrevs' would be clearer.

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[Po Lu]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

> I think that "shorthands" is not the most natural term for these.
> Our usual term for this sort of thing is "abbreviation".
>
> I think `symbol-prefix-abbrevs' would be clearer.

I think `symbol-prefix-abbrevs' carries the implication that
`prefix-abbrevs' is some sort of cell in the symbol.

How about `read-prefixes' or `read-prefix-abbrevs'?

Re: Shorthand variable named "elisp-shorthands" seems wrong

[João Távora]

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LOn Mon, Sep 27, 2021, 10:50 João Távora <joaotavora@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Mon, Sep 27, 2021 at 7:08 AM Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I skimmed through the new manual section for reader shorthands today.
> > It seems to be a very nice feature, but I don't think it's quite right
> > to have the file-local variable for shorthands named `elisp-shorthands'.
> >
> > AFAIU, the only variables that are currently prefixed with `elisp-'
> > involve editing support for Emacs Lisp such as
> > `elisp-byte-code-mode-hook', et cetera.
> >
> > How about something like `read-shorthands' instead?  Thanks.
>
> No objections.
>

The variable is now called 'read-symbol-shorthands'.

João

>

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