Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

>  * Changes in Emacs 28.1
>
> -** The new NonGNU ELPA archive is enabled by default alongside GNU ELPA.
[...]
>  * Changes in Specialized Modes and Packages in Emacs 28.1
[...]
>  ** Package
>
> +*** The new NonGNU ELPA archive is enabled by default alongside GNU ELPA.
> +Thus, packages on nonGNU ELPA will appear by default in the list shown
> +by 'list-packages'.

I strongly disagree with this change, for two important reasons:

1. This is not a change only in a specialized mode and package, but in
a very important Emacs default.  The overwhelming majority of our
enthusiast user-base, and likely a large proportion of our user-base,
are using packages every day.  In fact, many users couldn't imagine
using Emacs without them.  It's a mistake if we treat this as some
sort of specialized concern.

2. This is one of the more significant changes in this release, and
deserves its place in the spotlight.  I personally put it up there
together with native-comp as one of the things that really stand out
in this release, and that I believe many will be excited and happy to
hear about.

Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Mon, 6 Sep 2021 20:33:36 +0200
> 
> Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:
> 
> >  * Changes in Emacs 28.1
> >
> > -** The new NonGNU ELPA archive is enabled by default alongside GNU ELPA.
> [...]
> >  * Changes in Specialized Modes and Packages in Emacs 28.1
> [...]
> >  ** Package
> >
> > +*** The new NonGNU ELPA archive is enabled by default alongside GNU ELPA.
> > +Thus, packages on nonGNU ELPA will appear by default in the list shown
> > +by 'list-packages'.
> 
> I strongly disagree with this change, for two important reasons:
> 
> 1. This is not a change only in a specialized mode and package, but in
> a very important Emacs default.  The overwhelming majority of our
> enthusiast user-base, and likely a large proportion of our user-base,
> are using packages every day.  In fact, many users couldn't imagine
> using Emacs without them.  It's a mistake if we treat this as some
> sort of specialized concern.
> 
> 2. This is one of the more significant changes in this release, and
> deserves its place in the spotlight.  I personally put it up there
> together with native-comp as one of the things that really stand out
> in this release, and that I believe many will be excited and happy to
> hear about.

I agree with all that you say (except the string disagreement ;-), but
users will be oblivious to that change, unless the install packages
from ELPA.  The original entry, as stand-alone text, doesn't have any
practical impact on users that don't install packages, and would just
leave them wondering what is all this about.

IOW, the changed default doesn't affect anyone who doesn't use
package.el.  Which is why I moved it under that section.

Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> Date: Mon, 06 Sep 2021 21:46:12 +0300
> From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> 
> I agree with all that you say (except the string disagreement ;-)
                                            ^^^^^^
Should be "strong", sorry.

Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

[Stefan Kangas]

Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> writes:

> I agree with all that you say (except the string disagreement ;-), but

I am stringly happy to hear!  ;-)

> users will be oblivious to that change, unless the install packages
> from ELPA.  The original entry, as stand-alone text, doesn't have any
> practical impact on users that don't install packages, and would just
> leave them wondering what is all this about.
>
> IOW, the changed default doesn't affect anyone who doesn't use
> package.el.  Which is why I moved it under that section.

Could this concern be addressed by adding 2-3 lines that explains what
it is about?

Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>
> Date: Wed, 8 Sep 2021 18:06:38 +0200
> Cc: Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
> 
> > users will be oblivious to that change, unless the install packages
> > from ELPA.  The original entry, as stand-alone text, doesn't have any
> > practical impact on users that don't install packages, and would just
> > leave them wondering what is all this about.
> >
> > IOW, the changed default doesn't affect anyone who doesn't use
> > package.el.  Which is why I moved it under that section.
> 
> Could this concern be addressed by adding 2-3 lines that explains what
> it is about?

As I wrote elsewhere, announcing such changes in the Emacs ecosystem
is not the intended purpose of NEWS.  So I'm against cluttering it
with stuff that does not directly contribute to its purpose: describe
changes in using Emacs to users who are familiar with past releases.
NEWS is too big already.

Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

[Amin Bandali]

FWIW, I, too, think the addition of NonGNU ELPA and its being enabled by
default is a very important change, and would prefer to see it mentioned
near the very top of etc/NEWS to help draw more attention to it (besides
hopefully being highlighted in the upcoming release announcement email).

Re: master fb061cd 1/4: ; * etc/NEWS: Rearrange and fix wording of some entries.

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Amin Bandali <bandali@gnu.org>
> Cc: Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,  Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
> Date: Wed, 08 Sep 2021 11:26:36 -0400
> 
> FWIW, I, too, think the addition of NonGNU ELPA and its being enabled by
> default is a very important change, and would prefer to see it mentioned
> near the very top of etc/NEWS to help draw more attention to it (besides
> hopefully being highlighted in the upcoming release announcement email).

I agree that it's important we now have non-GNU ELPA, but NEWS is not
the right vehicle to spread these news of a general nature.  NEWS is
about changes in how people use Emacs, not changes in the Emacs
ecosystem.  There are other platforms for that (and this fact was
already announced there).