additional improvement of Polish tutorial

additional improvement of Polish tutorial

[Janusz S. Bień]

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I've corrected the name and coding of the file posted by Beata some
time ago. I added also the use of the new TUTORIAL facility announced
in April.

The present version preserves the addition made by the original
translators - it starts with some advice what to do if the Polish
letters are not displayed correctly. Perhaps it would be good to
extend all non-ASCII tutorials in this way? Perhaps the best universal
formula would be to point to another language and/or country specific
file.

Best regards

Janusz


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-- 
                     ,   
dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW
Prof. Janusz S. Bien, Warsaw Uniwersity
http://www.orient.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Na tym koncie czytam i wysylam poczte i wiadomosci offline.
On this account I read/post mail/news offline.

Re: additional improvement of Polish tutorial

[Richard Stallman]

    The present version preserves the addition made by the original
    translators - it starts with some advice what to do if the Polish
    letters are not displayed correctly. Perhaps it would be good to
    extend all non-ASCII tutorials in this way?

Can you translate it to English and make it a bit more general?
Then it could make sense to put into the English version
and it would eventually propagate into other versions.

Is this the text that you mean?

    Niniejszy akapit celowo nie zawiera polskich liter. Jesli polskie znaki
    w dalszej czesci podrecznika nie sa poprawnie wyswietlane, to znaczy, ze
    Twoj Emacs nie zostal jeszcze prawidlowo skonfigurowany. Pomoc w tym
    zakresie mozesz znalezc pod adresem:
    <URL:http://www.agh.edu.pl/ogonki>

What is the URL for?

One thing I worry about is that the first screen is now too long to
fit properly in a 24-line terminal.  The instructions at the bottom
for how to scroll won't appear!

Re: additional improvement of Polish tutorial

[Janusz S. Bień]

On Fri, 16 Aug 2002  Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> wrote:

>     The present version preserves the addition made by the original
>     translators - it starts with some advice what to do if the Polish
>     letters are not displayed correctly. Perhaps it would be good to
>     extend all non-ASCII tutorials in this way?
> 
> Can you translate it to English and make it a bit more general?
> Then it could make sense to put into the English version
> and it would eventually propagate into other versions.


The really elegant solution consists in making PROBLEMS file also
language dependent: when `C-h t' opens `TUTORIAL.pl', `C-h P' should
open `PROBLEMS.pl' instead of `PROBLEMS'. Then the following text
should be sufficient:

        You are looking at the Emacs tutorial. If it contains
        non-ASCII (non-English?) letters (characters?) which are not
        displayed correctly, consult `Emacs Known Problems' in `Help'
        menu.

Is it short enough not to cause the problem mentioned below?

> 
> Is this the text that you mean?
> 
>     Niniejszy akapit celowo nie zawiera polskich liter. Jesli polskie znaki
>     w dalszej czesci podrecznika nie sa poprawnie wyswietlane, to znaczy, ze
>     Twoj Emacs nie zostal jeszcze prawidlowo skonfigurowany. Pomoc w tym
>     zakresie mozesz znalezc pod adresem:
>     <URL:http://www.agh.edu.pl/ogonki>

Yes.

> 
> What is the URL for?

It is a Polish site devoted especially to problems with handling
Polish letters by computer software. Ryszard Kubiak, the main
translator of the tutorial, may provide more information if needed.

> 
> One thing I worry about is that the first screen is now too long to
> fit properly in a 24-line terminal.  The instructions at the bottom
> for how to scroll won't appear!

That's a real problem! I hope the translators will propose a solution.

Regards

Janusz

-- 
                     ,   
dr hab. Janusz S. Bien, prof. UW
Prof. Janusz S. Bien, Warsaw Uniwersity
http://www.orient.uw.edu.pl/~jsbien/
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Na tym koncie czytam i wysylam poczte i wiadomosci offline.
On this account I read/post mail/news offline.

Re: additional improvement of Polish tutorial

[Richard Stallman]

	    You are looking at the Emacs tutorial. If it contains
	    non-ASCII (non-English?) letters (characters?) which are not
	    displayed correctly, consult `Emacs Known Problems' in `Help'
	    menu.

    Is it short enough not to cause the problem mentioned below?

Please try it in a 24-line xterm and see.

    It is a Polish site devoted especially to problems with handling
    Polish letters by computer software. Ryszard Kubiak, the main
    translator of the tutorial, may provide more information if needed.

Does it promote use of non-free software?  We cannot refer to it if it does.

Re: additional improvement of Polish tutorial

[Ryszard Kubiak]

Dear Richard,

>  Does it promote use of non-free software? 

The link http://www.agh.edu.pl/ogonki refers to a collection of pages
where people may learn how to solve problems with Polish national
characters in various pieces of software. After thinking on the idea,
and checking the contents of those pages I admit that the link should 
be removed from the Polish translation of the tutorial due to the legal 
problem you mantion.

The idea behind placing the link was that in our translation we use 
Polish national characters. Emacs beginners will probably not see
them when they read the tutorial in a freshly installed Emacs. It will
be so since there are lots of Emacs parameters to be configurated for 
the accented characters to work properly.

I think that Emacs on-line documentation lacks material on solving the
most basic problems with manipulating text files in Emacs: such as
inputing national characters, getting them on the screen and on paper.
The file Emacs Known Problems is more about Emacs problems with itself,
very exotic at places, than on solving those basic problems in Emacs.

Just to give you an example of such a problem. At work, I've been using
Emacs for many years now and, in particular, ntEmacs on Windows for a
couple of years. For all this time with ntEmacs, I have not managed to
print a text in Polish with lpr-buffer properly! None of all other text
editors we exploit on Windows has problems with simply sending a text
file to a printer. The Polish characters look on paper just as they
should. Only when printed by Emacs they don't!

I spent yet another two hours today on surfing the Internet, ntEmacs
on-line documentation and various FAQs, in hope that somebody has solved
the problem. Yet again, I made many experiments with plethora of MULE
parameters. With no success. I don't know if there is something wrong
with ntEmacs software, or, my configuration of MULE parameters is 
wrong.

I believe that Emacs begginers should be referred as soon as in the
tutorial to a place where they can learn on how to solve the common
problems with national characters. The Emacs Known Problems file,
however, is not the right reference. I second Junusz Bien's concept 
that Emacs distribution should contain PROBLEM files dedicated to
solving problems in various countries.

Best Regards,
Rysiek

Re: additional improvement of Polish tutorial

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Ryszard Kubiak <rysiek@ipipan.gda.pl>
> Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 22:00:35 +0200
> 
> Just to give you an example of such a problem. At work, I've been using
> Emacs for many years now and, in particular, ntEmacs on Windows for a
> couple of years. For all this time with ntEmacs, I have not managed to
> print a text in Polish with lpr-buffer properly! None of all other text
> editors we exploit on Windows has problems with simply sending a text
> file to a printer. The Polish characters look on paper just as they
> should. Only when printed by Emacs they don't!

If this problem still exists, please tell the details.  I don't see
any reason why you shouldn't be able to print Polish text with
lpr-buffer.  Does it help to type "C-x RET c latin-2 RET" immediately
before "M-x lpr-buffer RET"?  What happens if you use cp1250 instead
of latin-2?

Re: additional improvement of Polish tutorial

[Richard Stallman]

    I believe that Emacs begginers should be referred as soon as in the
    tutorial to a place where they can learn on how to solve the common
    problems with national characters. The Emacs Known Problems file,
    however, is not the right reference. I second Junusz Bien's concept 
    that Emacs distribution should contain PROBLEM files dedicated to
    solving problems in various countries.

We can certainly have a specific file meant to help Polish users.
Would you like to write one?  Then TUTORIAL.pl could refer to that.

Please send me those changes, and then I will install them.