* the future of notmuch-vim?
@ 2013-01-19 13:46 David Bremner
2013-02-10 1:23 ` David Bremner
2013-04-02 19:55 ` Felipe Contreras
0 siblings, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread
From: David Bremner @ 2013-01-19 13:46 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: notmuch
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So now that we've (finally) released, we can turn our minds back to
being distruptive.
I'm not sure what, if anything to do about the vim frontend.
Looking at
http://qa.debian.org/popcon.php?package=notmuch
There is apparently still some people that use it (although notice the
"Vote" column is 0).
On the other hand
- The vim frontend is afaik the last thing depending on the legacy text
output format.
- The plugin seems to be only semi-functional at the moment; in a quick
test I found a message that didn't display it's content, and one that
displayed the content, along with "junk" from the internal
representation.
- There are now several alternatives for people whose only motivation to
use the vim frontend was dislike of emacs (alot and notmuch-mutt).
There are several alternative vim frontends floating around in (at
least) ruby and python. I don't if they are better or worse
functionality wise.
I'm considering stopping building debian packages for notmuch-vim, since
I don't see any current prospects for the package improving. I'm not
sure what the equivalent thing to do upstream would be, perhaps moving
it to contrib. Or, deprecating it and then removing it.
What do people think?
d
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^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-01-19 13:46 the future of notmuch-vim? David Bremner @ 2013-02-10 1:23 ` David Bremner 2013-02-16 12:23 ` David Bremner 2013-04-02 19:55 ` Felipe Contreras 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: David Bremner @ 2013-02-10 1:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: notmuch David Bremner <david@tethera.net> writes: > I'm not sure what, if anything to do about the vim frontend. > So, nobody has jumped to the defence of the vim plugin. Unless some better idea emerges in the next week or so, I plan to move it to the contrib/ directory and mark it as deprecated in NEWS. d ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-02-10 1:23 ` David Bremner @ 2013-02-16 12:23 ` David Bremner 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: David Bremner @ 2013-02-16 12:23 UTC (permalink / raw) To: notmuch David Bremner <david@tethera.net> writes: > So, nobody has jumped to the defence of the vim plugin. Unless some > better idea emerges in the next week or so, I plan to move it to the > contrib/ directory and mark it as deprecated in NEWS. Done. Also updated the Debian packaging to stop building the package notmuch-vim. d ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* RE: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-01-19 13:46 the future of notmuch-vim? David Bremner 2013-02-10 1:23 ` David Bremner @ 2013-04-02 19:55 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-02 22:47 ` David Bremner 2013-04-03 6:01 ` guyzmo 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Felipe Contreras @ 2013-04-02 19:55 UTC (permalink / raw) To: David Bremner, notmuch Hi, Sorry for the late reply, I wasn't following the ml. David Bremner wrote: > There is apparently still some people that use it (although notice the > "Vote" column is 0). > > On the other hand > > - The vim frontend is afaik the last thing depending on the legacy text > output format. > > - The plugin seems to be only semi-functional at the moment; in a quick > test I found a message that didn't display it's content, and one that > displayed the content, along with "junk" from the internal > representation. Indeed, I'd say the code is very poor at best. > - There are now several alternatives for people whose only motivation to > use the vim frontend was dislike of emacs (alot and notmuch-mutt). I did try the emacs frontend, and it was not working properly for me at the time, and I believe I documented my issues. It was not just my dislike of emacs that motivated me to write notmuch-vim-ruby. > There are several alternative vim frontends floating around in (at > least) ruby and python. I don't if they are better or worse > functionality wise. I'd say notmuch-vim-ruby is the best one, but of course I'm biased :) > I'm considering stopping building debian packages for notmuch-vim, since > I don't see any current prospects for the package improving. I'm not > sure what the equivalent thing to do upstream would be, perhaps moving > it to contrib. Or, deprecating it and then removing it. > > What do people think? Personally I think notmuch-vim should be replaced with notmuch-vim-ruby. I did try the python version, and remember discussing options with the guy developing it, but nothing happened out of it, and I think the ruby version is superior. I'd be open to discuss the options here, but I think notmuch-vim-ruby is the only real option. Cheers. -- Felipe Contreras ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* RE: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-02 19:55 ` Felipe Contreras @ 2013-04-02 22:47 ` David Bremner 2013-04-03 6:01 ` guyzmo 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: David Bremner @ 2013-04-02 22:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Felipe Contreras, notmuch Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> writes: > > I did try the emacs frontend, and it was not working properly for me at the > time, and I believe I documented my issues. It was not just my dislike of emacs > that motivated me to write notmuch-vim-ruby. I could only find a comment about the (admittedly imperfect) handling of HTML messages in emacs. Was there some other issues you remember? If you can point me to message-ids, I'd appreciate it. I've been trying to get http://nmbug.tethera.net/status/#Bugs up to date by tagging unresolved bugs reported to the mailing list. d PS: for what it's worth (and mainly for the benefit of others reading this thread), I find the combination of toggling visibility of mime parts and the shr renderer in emacs24 has noticably improved my experience with HTML email. YMMV, of course. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-02 19:55 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-02 22:47 ` David Bremner @ 2013-04-03 6:01 ` guyzmo 2013-04-03 8:21 ` Patrick Totzke 2013-04-03 9:09 ` Felipe Contreras 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: guyzmo @ 2013-04-03 6:01 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Felipe Contreras; +Cc: notmuch Hi On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 01:55:13PM -0600, Felipe Contreras wrote: > Sorry for the late reply, I wasn't following the ml. same here > David Bremner wrote: > > - There are now several alternatives for people whose only motivation to > > use the vim frontend was dislike of emacs (alot and notmuch-mutt). > I did try the emacs frontend, and it was not working properly for me at the > time, and I believe I documented my issues. It was not just my dislike of emacs > that motivated me to write notmuch-vim-ruby. I'd say not liking emacs is not a good reason for using vim as a MUA. Vim is just a text editor, and nothing else. > > There are several alternative vim frontends floating around in (at > > least) ruby and python. I don't if they are better or worse > > functionality wise. > I'd say notmuch-vim-ruby is the best one, but of course I'm biased :) It may be nice and/or fun to use that kind of things in vim, but really, it's opposite to the philosophy of vim. I personnally prefer a thousand times to use mutt-kz, alot as MUA, and vim only for writing mails. And by the way, to make vim better at writing emails, I had a hard time finding how to implement a way to lookup addresses fields' values fastly using the python API. The method I found (based on the python addressbook lookup script) takes about 20s for about 10000 mails. Is it the python binding that's flawed? Or the way addresses fields are stored? Maybe something could be done. > > it to contrib. Or, deprecating it and then removing it. > > What do people think? > Personally I think notmuch-vim should be replaced with notmuch-vim-ruby. I did > try the python version, and remember discussing options with the guy developing > it, but nothing happened out of it, and I think the ruby version is superior. > I'd be open to discuss the options here, but I think notmuch-vim-ruby is the > only real option. Whereas you seem to have done a really good job integrating it to vim, I personally think that anything that makes vim an IDE, a coffeemaker, or an Operating System is not worth the pain. So my opinion is to just drop vim-as-MUA script support. HTH, -- Guyzmo ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-03 6:01 ` guyzmo @ 2013-04-03 8:21 ` Patrick Totzke 2013-04-03 9:09 ` Felipe Contreras 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Patrick Totzke @ 2013-04-03 8:21 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guyzmo, Felipe Contreras; +Cc: notmuch Quoting guyzmo (2013-04-03 07:01:58) > ... > It may be nice and/or fun to use that kind of things in vim, but > really, it's opposite to the philosophy of vim. > ... > Whereas you seem to have done a really good job integrating it to > vim, I personally think that anything that makes vim an IDE, a > coffeemaker, or an Operating System is not worth the pain. So my opinion > is to just drop vim-as-MUA script support. Fullack! Thanks for spelling out my thoughts in great detail :D I'm definitely for dropping support for all notmuch-vim scripts officially. These scripts can live in their own repositories on github or alike and we can link those in the wiki for completeness sake. /p ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-03 6:01 ` guyzmo 2013-04-03 8:21 ` Patrick Totzke @ 2013-04-03 9:09 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-03 16:58 ` Suvayu Ali 2013-04-03 21:48 ` Patrick Totzke 1 sibling, 2 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Felipe Contreras @ 2013-04-03 9:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: guyzmo, Felipe Contreras; +Cc: notmuch guyzmo wrote: > On Tue, Apr 02, 2013 at 01:55:13PM -0600, Felipe Contreras wrote: > > Sorry for the late reply, I wasn't following the ml. > > same here > > > David Bremner wrote: > > > - There are now several alternatives for people whose only motivation to > > > use the vim frontend was dislike of emacs (alot and notmuch-mutt). > > I did try the emacs frontend, and it was not working properly for me at the > > time, and I believe I documented my issues. It was not just my dislike of emacs > > that motivated me to write notmuch-vim-ruby. > > I'd say not liking emacs is not a good reason for using vim as a > MUA. Vim is just a text editor, and nothing else. Vim is a pretty extensible text editor that works prectly fine as a MUA, in fact, much better than any other MUA I've ever used. That is a good reason. > > > There are several alternative vim frontends floating around in (at > > > least) ruby and python. I don't if they are better or worse > > > functionality wise. > > I'd say notmuch-vim-ruby is the best one, but of course I'm biased :) > > It may be nice and/or fun to use that kind of things in vim, but > really, it's opposite to the philosophy of vim. The philosophy of vim is irrelevant, what is relevant is what you can do with it, and you can use it as a perfectly good MUA. > I personnally prefer a thousand times to use mutt-kz, alot as MUA, and > vim only for writing mails. What you prefer is irrelevant; it's relevant only for you, that's why it's called a *preference*, the rest of us prefer different things. I've tried mutt-kz and alot, and I was utterly dissapointed by both. See how snappy and fast notmuch-vim-ruby is[1], alot is much worst in these respects. [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGD7IbZmnIs -- Felipe Contreras ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-03 9:09 ` Felipe Contreras @ 2013-04-03 16:58 ` Suvayu Ali 2013-04-03 21:48 ` Patrick Totzke 1 sibling, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Suvayu Ali @ 2013-04-03 16:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: notmuch On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 03:09:39AM -0600, Felipe Contreras wrote: > guyzmo wrote: > > > I personnally prefer a thousand times to use mutt-kz, alot as MUA, and > > vim only for writing mails. [...] > I've tried mutt-kz and alot, and I was utterly dissapointed by both. > > See how snappy and fast notmuch-vim-ruby is[1], alot is much worst in these > respects. > > [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JGD7IbZmnIs I'm a mutt-kz user, and I am not a vim user. That said, I agree with you that both mutt-kz and alot can be slow to start. Opening virtual folders in mutt-kz is quite slow compared to regular maildirectories. And there seems to be no solution yet. For example you can see this message from Karel: <http://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/mutt-kz/2013-April/000138.html> -- Suvayu Open source is the future. It sets us free. ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-03 9:09 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-03 16:58 ` Suvayu Ali @ 2013-04-03 21:48 ` Patrick Totzke 2013-04-03 23:34 ` Felipe Contreras 1 sibling, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Patrick Totzke @ 2013-04-03 21:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Felipe Contreras, guyzmo, Felipe Contreras; +Cc: notmuch [-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 812 bytes --] Quoting Felipe Contreras (2013-04-03 10:09:39) > ... > What you prefer is irrelevant; it's relevant only for you, that's why it's > called a *preference*, the rest of us prefer different things. Never mind preferences, I think originally, this thread was about dropping *support* for the *original* vim plugin that lives in notmuch/contrib. I think we can all agree that this is reasonable. This should not keep you from hacking on your script, hosting it whereever you like and support it. For me, one of the charms of notmuch is exactly this extensibility. > I've tried mutt-kz and alot, and I was utterly dissapointed by both. > > See how snappy and fast notmuch-vim-ruby is[1], alot is much worst in these > respects. I always appreciate constructive feedback on alot.. regards, /p [-- Attachment #2: signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1.4.11 (GNU/Linux) iEYEABECAAYFAlFco74ACgkQlDQDZ9fWxarMtACfYG88m2nDphTCArhbgVTGyK2x mqoAnj73lZQa1WGdcZj1tmKgiuI9feVJ =2TOz -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-03 21:48 ` Patrick Totzke @ 2013-04-03 23:34 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-05 11:30 ` Charlie Allom 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Felipe Contreras @ 2013-04-03 23:34 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Patrick Totzke; +Cc: notmuch On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Totzke <patricktotzke@gmail.com> wrote: > Quoting Felipe Contreras (2013-04-03 10:09:39) >> ... >> What you prefer is irrelevant; it's relevant only for you, that's why it's >> called a *preference*, the rest of us prefer different things. > > Never mind preferences, I think originally, this thread was about dropping > *support* for the *original* vim plugin that lives in notmuch/contrib. > I think we can all agree that this is reasonable. The reasons for dropping the original vim script are exactly the same reasons why it should be replaced with the ruby version. > This should not keep you from hacking on your script, hosting > it whereever you like and support it. > For me, one of the charms of notmuch is exactly this extensibility. Bpth are "my" scripts. I'm supposed to be the maintainer of the vim script and I have commit access. -- Felipe Contreras ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-03 23:34 ` Felipe Contreras @ 2013-04-05 11:30 ` Charlie Allom 2013-06-03 0:48 ` Felipe Contreras 0 siblings, 1 reply; 13+ messages in thread From: Charlie Allom @ 2013-04-05 11:30 UTC (permalink / raw) To: notmuch If Felipe is interested in maintaining the Vim plugin, I vote it should be replaced with his Ruby version. Please don't explain why you think emacs is better than vim. C. On Wed, Apr 03, 2013 at 05:34:48PM -0600, Felipe Contreras <felipe.contreras@gmail.com> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 3, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Patrick Totzke <patricktotzke@gmail.com> wrote: > > Quoting Felipe Contreras (2013-04-03 10:09:39) > >> ... > >> What you prefer is irrelevant; it's relevant only for you, that's why it's > >> called a *preference*, the rest of us prefer different things. > > > > Never mind preferences, I think originally, this thread was about dropping > > *support* for the *original* vim plugin that lives in notmuch/contrib. > > I think we can all agree that this is reasonable. > > The reasons for dropping the original vim script are exactly the same > reasons why it should be replaced with the ruby version. > > > This should not keep you from hacking on your script, hosting > > it whereever you like and support it. > > For me, one of the charms of notmuch is exactly this extensibility. > > Bpth are "my" scripts. I'm supposed to be the maintainer of the vim > script and I have commit access. > > -- > Felipe Contreras > _______________________________________________ > notmuch mailing list > notmuch@notmuchmail.org > http://notmuchmail.org/mailman/listinfo/notmuch -- +442077294797 (Office) +442031379505 (DDI) http://mediasp.com/ ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
* Re: the future of notmuch-vim? 2013-04-05 11:30 ` Charlie Allom @ 2013-06-03 0:48 ` Felipe Contreras 0 siblings, 0 replies; 13+ messages in thread From: Felipe Contreras @ 2013-06-03 0:48 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Charlie Allom; +Cc: notmuch On Fri, Apr 5, 2013 at 5:30 AM, Charlie Allom <charlie@mediasp.com> wrote: > If Felipe is interested in maintaining the Vim plugin, I vote it should > be replaced with his Ruby version. I've pushed the new vim plugin to the 'master' branch. Cheers. -- Felipe Contreras ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 13+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2013-06-03 0:48 UTC | newest] Thread overview: 13+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed) -- links below jump to the message on this page -- 2013-01-19 13:46 the future of notmuch-vim? David Bremner 2013-02-10 1:23 ` David Bremner 2013-02-16 12:23 ` David Bremner 2013-04-02 19:55 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-02 22:47 ` David Bremner 2013-04-03 6:01 ` guyzmo 2013-04-03 8:21 ` Patrick Totzke 2013-04-03 9:09 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-03 16:58 ` Suvayu Ali 2013-04-03 21:48 ` Patrick Totzke 2013-04-03 23:34 ` Felipe Contreras 2013-04-05 11:30 ` Charlie Allom 2013-06-03 0:48 ` Felipe Contreras
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