proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Quiliro Ordonez]

Fellow freedom mates:

Even though linux-Libre is a great kernel because it provides good
technical value as well as freedom value, our advocacy for freedom is
greatly hindered when people call our project a Linux distribution
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guix_System_Distribution
Our advocacy for freedom is confused with the advocacy Linux for more
technology and tangentially advocating slavery without remorse.

I propose to eliminate linux-Libre from the repos and add kFreeBSD. A
new repository, separate from Guix and not connected to the project
could be created in order to add linux-Libre. That way, GuixSD could in
no way be ever called a Linux distribution. An action like this could
even help all other GNU distros as well as distinguish GuixSD from all.

I know the port of kFreeBSD to Debian has been discontinued. But I found
this document about how it was done.
https://salsa.debian.org/bsd-team/web/raw/master/porting/PORTING
at the kFreeBSD port on the Debian wiki. I think we could take it from
where they left.

The best option would be to make Hurd usable because it is GNU's natural
kernel. But I think this is a longer range project.

What do you think about either of these possibilities and what do you
think the steps should be to make it a reality?

Happy hacking.
Quiliro

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Ricardo Wurmus]

Quiliro Ordonez <quiliro@riseup.net> writes:

> Even though linux-Libre is a great kernel because it provides good
> technical value as well as freedom value, our advocacy for freedom is
> greatly hindered when people call our project a Linux distribution
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guix_System_Distribution
> Our advocacy for freedom is confused with the advocacy Linux for more
> technology and tangentially advocating slavery without remorse.
>
> I propose to eliminate linux-Libre from the repos and add kFreeBSD. A
> new repository, separate from Guix and not connected to the project
> could be created in order to add linux-Libre. That way, GuixSD could in
> no way be ever called a Linux distribution. An action like this could
> even help all other GNU distros as well as distinguish GuixSD from all.

This is not a reasonable goal and it is not a productive proposal for a
number of reasons.

If you want to port the GNU system to have it use the FreeBSD kernel you
are welcome to give it a try, but this would be a *major* undertaking
that I can only advise against.  The GNU C library does not natively
support the FreeBSD kernel, so it is a *much* less realistic goal than
to build a Hurd-based Guix system.

All this for merely giving people a reason to stop using the term “Linux
distribution”?

Linux libre is one of the GNU system’s supported kernels; why should we
limit our options just because of the terms other people use?  If people
choose to call Guix a “Linux distribution” that’s their decision (and it
is understandable from their perspective even if we disagree with that
point of view) – it would be foolish to interpret this situation as an
imperative to abandon Linux(-libre).

--
Ricardo


PS: in case this was meant as a joke: it’s hard to be sure on this
Internet of ours :)

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[L p R n d n]

Hello,

I'm not sure to understand what you mean. Could you try to explain a bit
more what what would be the fimal goal?

Thanks,

Lprndn

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Quiliro Ordonez]

> I'm not sure to understand what you mean. Could you try to explain a bit
> more what what would be the fimal goal?

The objective of a free distro is to give freedom to the users. It is
archievable with linux-Libre. But most people that use GNU do not
consider it an important project because they think they do not use GNU
but that they use Linux. If there were a distro that used GNU without
Linux, this would dramatically change. If people would perceive they
used GNU instead of Linux, they would tend to give more weight to the
political opinions of the developers of GNU. Those opinions mostly tend
to be sided with freedom, regardless if it is the cheapest/best/securest
software. The final goal is for people to value their freedom more.

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Quiliro Ordonez]

El 2019-03-28 21:38, Ricardo Wurmus escribió:
> Quiliro Ordonez <quiliro@riseup.net> writes:
> 
>> Even though linux-Libre is a great kernel because it provides good
>> technical value as well as freedom value, our advocacy for freedom is
>> greatly hindered when people call our project a Linux distribution
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guix_System_Distribution
>> Our advocacy for freedom is confused with the advocacy Linux for more
>> technology and tangentially advocating slavery without remorse.
>>
>> I propose to eliminate linux-Libre from the repos and add kFreeBSD. A
>> new repository, separate from Guix and not connected to the project
>> could be created in order to add linux-Libre. That way, GuixSD could in
>> no way be ever called a Linux distribution. An action like this could
>> even help all other GNU distros as well as distinguish GuixSD from all.
> 
> This is not a reasonable goal and it is not a productive proposal for a
> number of reasons.
> 
> If you want to port the GNU system to have it use the FreeBSD kernel you
> are welcome to give it a try, but this would be a *major* undertaking
> that I can only advise against.  The GNU C library does not natively
> support the FreeBSD kernel, so it is a *much* less realistic goal than
> to build a Hurd-based Guix system.

OK.

> All this for merely giving people a reason to stop using the term “Linux
> distribution”?

No. It is for helping people value the project and thus consider freedom
more valueable than any other feature.

> Linux libre is one of the GNU system’s supported kernels; why should we
> limit our options just because of the terms other people use?  If people
> choose to call Guix a “Linux distribution” that’s their decision (and it
> is understandable from their perspective even if we disagree with that
> point of view) – it would be foolish to interpret this situation as an
> imperative to abandon Linux(-libre).

It is not an imperative to abandon linux-Libre. It is just a hack to
change the political view of users. As it is possible to install any
package from any repo as easily as installing Guix, it is possible to
have linux-Libre in another repo. It would not be a technical change if
there is another default usable kernel. It would be a political choice.

> PS: in case this was meant as a joke: it’s hard to be sure on this
> Internet of ours :)

It is not a joke. But wouldn't it be a good one for April 1st?

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Tobias Geerinckx-Rice]

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Quiliro Ordonez wrote:
> El 2019-03-28 21:38, Ricardo Wurmus escribió:
>> All this for merely giving people a reason to stop using the 
>> term “Linux
>> distribution”?
>
> No. It is for helping people value the project and thus consider 
> freedom
> more valueable than any other feature.

Switching from a GPL'ed to a *less* free (BSD-licenced) kernel 
would be a huge step backwards for such people (of which I am 
one).

>> PS: in case this was meant as a joke: it’s hard to be sure on 
>> this
>> Internet of ours :)
>
> It is not a joke. But wouldn't it be a good one for April 1st?

Only if you provide a working patch porting Guix to FreeBSD, in 
the spirit of Marius's systemd effort ;-)

Kind regards,

T G-R

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Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[ng0]

Tobias Geerinckx-Rice transcribed 1.2K bytes:
> Quiliro Ordonez wrote:
> > El 2019-03-28 21:38, Ricardo Wurmus escribió:
> > > All this for merely giving people a reason to stop using the term
> > > “Linux
> > > distribution”?
> > 
> > No. It is for helping people value the project and thus consider freedom
> > more valueable than any other feature.
> 
> Switching from a GPL'ed to a *less* free (BSD-licenced) kernel would be a
> huge step backwards for such people (of which I am one).
> 
> > > PS: in case this was meant as a joke: it’s hard to be sure on this
> > > Internet of ours :)
> > 
> > It is not a joke. But wouldn't it be a good one for April 1st?
> 
> Only if you provide a working patch porting Guix to FreeBSD, in the spirit
> of Marius's systemd effort ;-)
> 
> Kind regards,
> 
> T G-R

I have spend some time looking into this when I was restructuring guix.
There are legal implications which should not be overlooked (Gentoo had
a BSD based kernel option for a while and discontinued it for as far as
I could gather legal reasons.. the code on how to do it from source is
still out there though).
In my personal opinion it is nonsense. I haven't read about kFreeBSD in
a while, but even if it were considered, FreeBSD is more than its kernel.
You are most likely to hit a boatload of technical issues (Linux compat
in FreeBSD is quiet good, the other way around is let's say technically
stalled but the option is there to add it back).
And the 4.3BSD-derived Operating Systems are full operating systems.
Unlike Hurd or Linux they do not easily provide just a kernel (the
closest to "just a kernel" is NetBSD rumpkernel). It would be a mistake
to distributize them. Even more just for a social hack.


PS: My request for the last step towards starting to port Guix to NetBSD
    still stands (Guile bindings of GnuTLS) ;)

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Quiliro Ordonez]

El 2019-03-29 00:21, Tobias Geerinckx-Rice escribió:
> Quiliro Ordonez wrote:
>> El 2019-03-28 21:38, Ricardo Wurmus escribió:
>>> All this for merely giving people a reason to stop using the term “Linux
>>> distribution”?
>>
>> No. It is for helping people value the project and thus consider freedom
>> more valueable than any other feature.
> 
> Switching from a GPL'ed to a *less* free (BSD-licenced) kernel would
> be a huge step backwards for such people (of which I am one).

I do not propose such thing. BSD-licensed software can be changed to
GPL'ed. There are othe implications, of course. But it is still free and
can be copylefted.

>>> PS: in case this was meant as a joke: it’s hard to be sure on this
>>> Internet of ours :)
>>
>> It is not a joke. But wouldn't it be a good one for April 1st?
> 
> Only if you provide a working patch porting Guix to FreeBSD, in the
> spirit of Marius's systemd effort ;-)

I am looking for the best way to spend my time (and others' time) where
the social benefit would be the greatest with the investment of
learning, investigation and effort. I am not sure if I am prepared yet
for such a goal. But having a goal makes the energy needed to atain it
come easier.

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Ricardo Wurmus]

ng0@n0.is writes:

> Unlike Hurd or Linux they do not easily provide just a kernel (the
> closest to "just a kernel" is NetBSD rumpkernel).

And the circle is closed with the Hurd using NetBSD rumpkernel as a
“server” to run NetBSD device drivers.

Let’s work on the Hurd, people!  It’s beautiful!

-- 
Ricardo

Re: proposal to remove linux-Libre from Guix

[Jan Nieuwenhuizen]

Ricardo Wurmus writes:

> Let’s work on the Hurd, people!  It’s beautiful!

FWIW the Mes port to the Hurd is ongoing and mes now runs, next thing
up is fork which we need for running mescc.

janneke

-- 
Jan Nieuwenhuizen <janneke@gnu.org> | GNU LilyPond http://lilypond.org
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