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From: "Alfred M. Szmidt" <ams@gnu.org>
To: Ihor Radchenko <yantar92@posteo.net>
Cc: incal@dataswamp.org, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core
Date: Mon, 21 Aug 2023 03:52:30 -0400	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <E1qXziA-00022E-90@fencepost.gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87bkf06enk.fsf@localhost> (message from Ihor Radchenko on Mon, 21 Aug 2023 07:25:03 +0000)

   >    > ... In Lisp you
   >    > never know the types of things.
   >
   >    This is not true.
   >
   > It is absolutley true, you cannot know what the value of a variable is
   > without checking the type of it at run time.  Variables have no type
   > information.

   What about

   (progn
     (setq x (list 'a 'b 'c))
     (listp x))

   `listp' call can definitely be optimized once the compiler knows that
   `list' returns a list.

A sufficiently smart compiler would optimize that to T sure, the Emacs
Lisp compiler doesn't.  And that is one of the issues, native
compilation or not, since right now native compilation gets this to
work with, and it cannot do magic no matter how much magic dust you
give it.  

byte code for foo:
  args: nil
0	constant  a
1	constant  b
2	constant  c
3	list3	  
4	dup	  
5	varset	  x
6	listp	  
7	return	  

Native compilation will not help you when you need to figure out what
is to be done in:

(defun foo (x) (assoc x '((123 . a) (456 . b) (798 c))))

E.g., to call ASSQ instead, since it is just fixnums, and ASSOC uses
EQUAL which is "slow".  The Emacs Lisp compiler cannot optimize that
code today, and native compilation will get whatever the compiler
produced, with the call to ASSOC no matter what.  

That is what it means to optimize Lisp code.



  reply	other threads:[~2023-08-21  7:52 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 353+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-08-09  9:46 Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 10:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 11:03   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 11:29     ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 12:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-09 15:51   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 23:56     ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  1:19       ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10  1:47         ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  1:58         ` Eric Frederickson
2023-08-10  2:07           ` Sam James
2023-08-10  2:44             ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  6:48             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:21               ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:19             ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:56               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11  5:46               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  8:45                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 11:24                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 12:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 13:16                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10  2:28         ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  4:15           ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  7:44         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:54           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 10:27             ` Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:10               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 12:32                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:38                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 14:07                     ` [PATCH] " Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 18:06                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 19:41                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 19:50                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:24                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:03                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:09                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:49                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:21                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  2:20                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  2:42                                         ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance Po Lu
2023-08-14  4:16                                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:15                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:50                                             ` Po Lu
2023-08-14  9:28                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-15 14:28                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:20                                         ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 22:46                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:30                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:22                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:12                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 14:14               ` Mattias Engdegård
2023-08-11 18:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-10 23:49           ` Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-11  0:03             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-11  8:24               ` Immanuel Litzroth
2023-08-11  7:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  7:19               ` tomas
2023-08-11 10:57               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 11:28         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-08-10 21:26           ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-12  2:46           ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-12  3:22             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:33               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 15:58                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:13                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:55                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:23                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 20:55                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  0:13                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 18:32               ` tomas
2023-08-12 22:08                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 23:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  5:50                   ` tomas
2023-08-13  8:38                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 15:54                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-13  8:00                   ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-13  9:21                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:27                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-14  7:36                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:50                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-15 22:57                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-16 10:27                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 13:29                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  5:09                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  6:51                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  7:14                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  7:52                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 13:01                                           ` tomas
2023-08-20 13:12                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  8:28                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20  9:29                                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 15:22                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 15:36                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 15:45                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 15:54                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:29                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:37                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:31                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:07                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-27  3:53                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 19:15                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 19:24                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  2:33                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  4:11                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:15                                                                       ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  4:36                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:43                                                                           ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  5:06                                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:25                                                                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21  5:34                                                                               ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  9:17                                                                                 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  9:42                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 10:36                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:41                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:20                                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 14:49                                                                                             ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Andrea Corallo
2023-08-23 10:11                                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25  9:19                                                                                                 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 11:06                                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25 14:26                                                                                                     ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-26 11:14                                                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  1:40                                                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  7:38                                                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 13:42                                                                                                       ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 22:19                                                                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28  5:04                                                                                                           ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28 19:49                                                                                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  0:47                                                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  8:26                                                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 17:52                                                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 11:05                                                                                       ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:46                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:33                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:34                                                                                       ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                     ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:12                                                                                   ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:53                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  2:04                                                                                 ` Shrinking the C core Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  7:59                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-27  5:31                                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  6:16                                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 10:48                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:56                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:22                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  4:41                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 11:27                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:15                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 20:39                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:59                                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:23                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:26                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 10:46                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27  4:01                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:53                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:48                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  9:06                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:25                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:55                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:03                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:34                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:02                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 20:11                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 21:09                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  2:01                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-26  5:48                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-26 18:15                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 18:27                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:44                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:11                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  2:35                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  8:48                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:10                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:59                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:23                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 10:13                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:32                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  6:19                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:26                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt [this message]
2023-08-21 11:26                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 23:55                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-23  7:04                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 17:24                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-24 20:02                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 21:51                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21  8:54                                         ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  9:30                                           ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-21 11:13                                             ` Type declarations in Elisp Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:37                                             ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22  5:34                                               ` Type declarations in Elisp Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-22  6:16                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 11:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-22 23:33                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-25  9:29                                                     ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 20:42                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:42                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 14:04                                                       ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 14:07                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:46                                                           ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 17:15                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 18:06                                                               ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28  9:56                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 19:06                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-18  8:35                               ` Shrinking the C core Aurélien Aptel
2023-08-19 13:32                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-31  1:41                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  2:36                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-14  4:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 11:15                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12  3:28             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  3:48               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  3:50               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  6:00                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  6:02               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-12  7:38                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-09 12:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 16:11   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 16:44     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 17:57       ` Eric S. Raymond
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-08-13  7:59 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  8:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  8:06 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  9:26 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 11:20 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 12:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:14 Arthur Miller
2023-08-27 16:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  5:32   ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-28  6:23     ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  6:21   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:31 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  5:50   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 12:20     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 14:39       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:17         ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:41           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:41 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  2:53   ` chad
2023-08-28  3:43   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28  4:53   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  5:36     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  6:55       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  7:31         ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  8:06           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 14:30             ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:09               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-29  2:20                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:14               ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:36                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:07                   ` Po Lu
2023-08-31  1:07                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 14:08           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:08             ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:06               ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:15                 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 11:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-29  3:57               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01  1:18                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31  2:07             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-01 14:58               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 16:36                 ` tomas
2023-09-04  1:32                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-04  1:44                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-04  5:49                     ` Rudolf Schlatte
2023-09-04 14:08                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  1:21                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-07  1:54                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:02                         ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:36                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-07  7:56                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:19                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-07  8:39                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  9:28                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-09  1:00                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-09  6:25                                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-09  7:24                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:31                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:39                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-09  1:06                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:24                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-11 12:43                             ` tomas
2023-09-13  5:59                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-12  4:44                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-12 12:25                               ` João Távora
2023-09-12 11:31                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-09-13  6:12                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-05  4:23                   ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06  0:58               ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-06  1:12                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-06  5:04                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 11:29                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-09-06 23:03                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:00                       ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:23                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:52                           ` tomas
2023-09-07  5:30                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  6:15                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 23:55                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-13  6:34                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:51                       ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-09-07  9:20                         ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  9:34                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-08  2:00                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-08  7:35                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-09 10:05                         ` João Távora
2023-09-08 17:58                       ` Bob Rogers
2023-09-15 21:59                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-17 23:03                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09  0:39                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 12:50                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  0:27                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  7:45       ` Andrea Monaco
2023-08-28 14:35         ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  3:46 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 11:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 18:22   ` chad
2023-09-12 18:47     ` Yuri Khan
2023-09-12 19:06     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 19:07     ` joakim
2023-09-12 19:42       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 21:56         ` joakim
2023-09-13  5:05           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-13 14:29             ` joakim
2023-09-15  5:46               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-13 15:33             ` Fraga, Eric
2023-09-15  5:51               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-15 11:38                 ` Fraga, Eric
2023-09-12  3:51 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  4:47 ` tomas
2023-09-12 11:29 ` Po Lu
2023-09-12 13:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-13  5:06 Arthur Miller
2023-09-13  6:33 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-14 11:35   ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-14 13:03     ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-14 13:20       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-15 17:11         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-15 18:39           ` Eli Zaretskii

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