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From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
Cc: ericfrederickson68@gmail.com, esr@thyrsus.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core
Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2023 09:48:36 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <83msyzjsu3.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <87leej7ima.fsf@gentoo.org> (message from Sam James on Thu, 10 Aug 2023 03:07:58 +0100)

> From: Sam James <sam@gentoo.org>
> Cc: esr@thyrsus.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Thu, 10 Aug 2023 03:07:58 +0100
> 
> While not being up front about the changes is of debatable wisdom, I
> didn't find it particularly alarming given I at least have always
> understood the aim to be to have the C core as small as possible anyway.

There are no such goals, no, not where I'm standing.  We do prefer to
implement new features and extensions in Lisp if they can reasonably
be implemented in Lisp, but rewriting existing C code in Lisp is not a
goal in and off itself.

> Laying the groundwork for something that may or may not come off with
> independent changes one believes are worthwhile isn't underhanded if
> it's just a pipedream in the back of your head but you think the changes
> are good in isolation.

Assuming I understand what you mean by that: we've been burnt in the
past by people who started working on some grand changes, made
package-wide preparatory modifications, and then left to greener
pasture without arriving at any point where those changes have any
usefulness.  That's net loss: the code is less clear, gets in the way
of the muscle memory of veteran Emacs hackers (who used to know by
heart where some particular piece of code lives and how it works), and
brings exactly zero advantages to justify these downsides.  So now I'd
prefer to start such changes only if there's a more-or-less clear and
agreed-upon plan for the new features, and generally do that on a
feature branch, so that we could avoid changes on master before they
are really useful and agreed-upon.



  parent reply	other threads:[~2023-08-10  6:48 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 353+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2023-08-09  9:46 Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 10:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 11:03   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 11:29     ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 12:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-09 15:51   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 23:56     ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  1:19       ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10  1:47         ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  1:58         ` Eric Frederickson
2023-08-10  2:07           ` Sam James
2023-08-10  2:44             ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  6:48             ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2023-08-10 21:21               ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:19             ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:56               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11  5:46               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  8:45                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 11:24                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 12:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 13:16                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10  2:28         ` Po Lu
2023-08-10  4:15           ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10  7:44         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:54           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 10:27             ` Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:10               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 12:32                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 12:38                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 14:07                     ` [PATCH] " Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 18:06                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 19:41                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 19:50                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:24                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:03                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:09                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:49                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:21                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  2:20                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  2:42                                         ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance Po Lu
2023-08-14  4:16                                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:15                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:50                                             ` Po Lu
2023-08-14  9:28                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-15 14:28                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:20                                         ` [PATCH] Re: Bignum performance (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 22:46                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:30                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 16:22                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:12                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-11 14:14               ` Mattias Engdegård
2023-08-11 18:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-10 23:49           ` Shrinking the C core Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-11  0:03             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-11  8:24               ` Immanuel Litzroth
2023-08-11  7:03             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11  7:19               ` tomas
2023-08-11 10:57               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 11:28         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-08-10 21:26           ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-12  2:46           ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-12  3:22             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  8:33               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 15:58                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  9:13                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13  9:55                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:23                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 20:55                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  0:13                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 18:32               ` tomas
2023-08-12 22:08                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 23:09                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  5:50                   ` tomas
2023-08-13  8:38                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 15:54                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-13  8:00                   ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-13  9:21                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  7:27                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-14  7:36                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14  7:50                           ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-15 22:57                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-16 10:27                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 13:29                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  5:09                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  6:51                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20  7:14                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  7:52                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 13:01                                           ` tomas
2023-08-20 13:12                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20  8:28                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20  9:29                                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 15:22                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 15:36                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 15:45                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 15:54                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:29                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:37                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:31                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:07                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-27  3:53                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 19:15                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 19:24                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  2:33                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  4:11                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:15                                                                       ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  4:36                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  4:43                                                                           ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  5:06                                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:25                                                                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21  5:34                                                                               ` Po Lu
2023-08-21  9:17                                                                                 ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  9:42                                                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 10:36                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                       ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:41                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:20                                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 14:49                                                                                             ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Andrea Corallo
2023-08-23 10:11                                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25  9:19                                                                                                 ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 11:06                                                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-25 14:26                                                                                                     ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-26 11:14                                                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  1:40                                                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  7:38                                                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 13:42                                                                                                       ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 22:19                                                                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28  5:04                                                                                                           ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28 19:49                                                                                                             ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  0:47                                                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  8:26                                                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-26 17:52                                                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 11:05                                                                                       ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:46                                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:33                                                                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-21 11:34                                                                                       ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                     ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR (was: Shrinking the C core) Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:12                                                                                   ` Add more supported primitives in libgccjit IR Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:53                                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  2:04                                                                                 ` Shrinking the C core Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  7:59                                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-27  5:31                                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  6:16                                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 10:48                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:56                                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:22                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  4:41                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 11:27                                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:15                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 20:39                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  5:59                                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:23                                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:26                                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 10:46                                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02                                                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27  4:01                                                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:53                                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:48                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  9:06                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27  3:25                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:55                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:03                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:34                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:02                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 20:11                                                             ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 21:09                                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26  2:01                                                                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-26  5:48                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-26 18:15                                                                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 18:27                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:44                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:11                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  2:35                                                     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21  8:48                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:10                                                         ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:59                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:23                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 10:13                                                               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:32                                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21  6:19                                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  6:26                                                   ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:21                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21  7:25                                                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  7:52                                                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:26                                                           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 23:55                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-23  7:04                                                     ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 17:24                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-24 20:02                                                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 21:51                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2023-08-21  8:54                                         ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21  9:30                                           ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-21 11:13                                             ` Type declarations in Elisp Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:37                                             ` Type declarations in Elisp (was: [External] : Re: Shrinking the C core) Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22  5:34                                               ` Type declarations in Elisp Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-22  6:16                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 11:14                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-22 23:33                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-25  9:29                                                     ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-25 20:42                                                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27  8:42                                                     ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 14:04                                                       ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 14:07                                                         ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:46                                                           ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-27 17:15                                                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 18:06                                                               ` Andrea Corallo
2023-08-28  9:56                                                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 19:06                                                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-18  8:35                               ` Shrinking the C core Aurélien Aptel
2023-08-19 13:32                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-31  1:41                                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14  2:36                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-14  4:12                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 11:15                       ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12  3:28             ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  3:48               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  3:50               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12  6:00                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12  6:02               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-12  7:38                 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-09 12:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 16:11   ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 16:44     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 17:57       ` Eric S. Raymond
  -- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-08-13  7:59 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  8:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13  8:06 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13  9:26 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 11:20 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 12:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 15:14 Arthur Miller
2023-08-27 16:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28  5:32   ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-28  6:23     ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  6:21   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:31 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  5:50   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 12:20     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 14:39       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:17         ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:41           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  1:41 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  2:53   ` chad
2023-08-28  3:43   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28  4:53   ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  5:36     ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  6:55       ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28  7:31         ` Po Lu
2023-08-28  8:06           ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 14:30             ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:09               ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-29  2:20                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:14               ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:36                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:07                   ` Po Lu
2023-08-31  1:07                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 14:08           ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:08             ` Po Lu
2023-08-29  2:06               ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29  4:15                 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 11:50                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-29  3:57               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01  1:18                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31  2:07             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-01 14:58               ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 16:36                 ` tomas
2023-09-04  1:32                 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-04  1:44                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-04  5:49                     ` Rudolf Schlatte
2023-09-04 14:08                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  1:21                     ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-07  1:54                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:02                         ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:36                         ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-07  7:56                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:19                             ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-07  8:39                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  9:28                                 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-09  1:00                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-09  6:25                                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-09  7:24                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:31                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07  9:39                                 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-09  1:06                                   ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:24                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-11 12:43                             ` tomas
2023-09-13  5:59                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-12  4:44                             ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-12 12:25                               ` João Távora
2023-09-12 11:31                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-09-13  6:12                               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-05  4:23                   ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06  0:58               ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-06  1:12                 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-06  5:04                 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 11:29                   ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-09-06 23:03                     ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:00                       ` tomas
2023-09-07  7:23                         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  7:52                           ` tomas
2023-09-07  5:30                     ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  6:15                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11  0:43                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:05                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 23:55                             ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-13  6:34                           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07  8:51                       ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-09-07  9:20                         ` Po Lu
2023-09-07  9:34                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-08  2:00                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-08  7:35                       ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-09 10:05                         ` João Távora
2023-09-08 17:58                       ` Bob Rogers
2023-09-15 21:59                       ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-17 23:03                         ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09  0:39                   ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 12:50                     ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  0:27                       ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28  7:45       ` Andrea Monaco
2023-08-28 14:35         ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  3:46 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 11:55 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 18:22   ` chad
2023-09-12 18:47     ` Yuri Khan
2023-09-12 19:06     ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 19:07     ` joakim
2023-09-12 19:42       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 21:56         ` joakim
2023-09-13  5:05           ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-13 14:29             ` joakim
2023-09-15  5:46               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-13 15:33             ` Fraga, Eric
2023-09-15  5:51               ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-15 11:38                 ` Fraga, Eric
2023-09-12  3:51 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12  4:47 ` tomas
2023-09-12 11:29 ` Po Lu
2023-09-12 13:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-13  5:06 Arthur Miller
2023-09-13  6:33 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-14 11:35   ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-14 13:03     ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-14 13:20       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-15 17:11         ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-15 18:39           ` Eli Zaretskii

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