From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
Cc: emacs-tangents@gnu.org
Subject: Re: Shrinking the C core
Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 14:55:55 +0300 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <83jzsvppv8.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <AM9PR09MB497796E739349F8CB9AD4F4996F1A@AM9PR09MB4977.eurprd09.prod.outlook.com> (message from Arthur Miller on Tue, 12 Sep 2023 05:46:37 +0200)
[Redirected to emacs-tangents.]
> From: Arthur Miller <arthur.miller@live.com>
> CC: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Sep 2023 05:46:37 +0200
>
> Mnjah; you know as well as I, and I have written it in the very first
> mail why I want Emacs in Lisp. There are already other applications and
> editors inpsired by Emacs, that is not the question. Problem with them
> is they can't run Emacs applications and they don't have Emacs manual
> and the well written documentation. I think it would be waste of the
> effort of many people to throw it away. You may disagree and that is OK.
It will not be a waste of effort if the "neo-Emacs" will take into
consideration the main lessons we learned during those 40 years, and
will have a different architectural design to avoid the pitfalls and
allow extensions we cannot currently support. Reimplementing the same
design in a different language, be it SBCL, Python, Go, Rust, or
whatever -- that _is_ a waste of effort, because you will have the
same Emacs with the same basic restrictions and limitations, which are
really not expected from a modern GUI program. We tolerate them in
Emacs because in return we get so much and because the performance is
still reasonable as long as we can live with the limitations, but
starting a radically new implementation from the same point with the
same basic design means that we will have to tolerate those same
limitations for decades in the future, and that's simply silly. The
net result will be a huge effort, lots of work to stabilize the result
to be anywhere close to what we have now, and all that for what?
Which is why anyone who understands the internals well enough to do
the job will never do it.
Yes, this can be done in principle. But it shouldn't.
P.S. And don't be afraid of losing some of the applications and the
documentation -- these should be the least of your worries. Sticking
to the same design for these reasons is ... I don't even have
civilized words to describe this kind of thinking.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2023-09-12 11:55 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 277+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2023-09-12 3:46 Shrinking the C core Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 11:55 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2023-09-12 18:22 ` chad
2023-09-12 18:47 ` Yuri Khan
2023-09-12 19:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 19:07 ` joakim
2023-09-12 19:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 21:56 ` joakim
2023-09-13 5:05 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-13 14:29 ` joakim
2023-09-15 5:46 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-13 15:33 ` Fraga, Eric
2023-09-15 5:51 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-15 11:38 ` Fraga, Eric
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2023-09-13 5:06 Arthur Miller
2023-09-13 6:33 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-14 11:35 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-14 13:03 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-14 13:20 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-15 17:11 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-15 18:39 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 3:51 Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 4:47 ` tomas
2023-09-12 11:29 ` Po Lu
2023-09-12 13:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27 15:14 Arthur Miller
2023-08-27 16:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28 5:32 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-28 6:23 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 6:21 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 1:31 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28 5:50 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 12:20 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 14:39 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:17 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 2:41 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 1:41 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 2:53 ` chad
2023-08-28 3:43 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 4:53 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 5:36 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 6:55 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 7:31 ` Po Lu
2023-08-28 8:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-28 14:30 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:09 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-29 2:20 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:14 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 2:36 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29 4:07 ` Po Lu
2023-08-31 1:07 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 14:08 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-28 15:08 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 2:06 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-29 4:15 ` Po Lu
2023-08-29 11:50 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-29 3:57 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 1:18 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-31 2:07 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-01 14:58 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-01 16:36 ` tomas
2023-09-04 1:32 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-04 1:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-04 5:49 ` Rudolf Schlatte
2023-09-04 14:08 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 1:21 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-07 1:54 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 7:02 ` tomas
2023-09-07 7:36 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-07 7:56 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 8:19 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-07 8:39 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 9:28 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-09-09 1:00 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-09 6:25 ` Po Lu
2023-09-09 7:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07 9:31 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-07 9:39 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-09-09 1:06 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11 0:43 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-11 12:43 ` tomas
2023-09-13 5:59 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-12 4:44 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-12 12:25 ` João Távora
2023-09-12 11:31 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-09-13 6:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-05 4:23 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 0:58 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-06 1:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-06 5:04 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-06 11:29 ` Alan Mackenzie
2023-09-06 23:03 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 7:00 ` tomas
2023-09-07 7:23 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 7:52 ` tomas
2023-09-07 5:30 ` Po Lu
2023-09-07 6:15 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-11 0:43 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-11 12:05 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-12 23:55 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-13 6:34 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-07 8:51 ` Manuel Giraud via Emacs development discussions.
2023-09-07 9:20 ` Po Lu
2023-09-07 9:34 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-09-08 2:00 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-08 7:35 ` Gerd Möllmann
2023-09-09 10:05 ` João Távora
2023-09-08 17:58 ` Bob Rogers
2023-09-15 21:59 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-09-17 23:03 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 0:39 ` Richard Stallman
2023-09-09 12:50 ` Arthur Miller
2023-09-12 0:27 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-28 7:45 ` Andrea Monaco
2023-08-28 14:35 ` Arthur Miller
2023-08-13 11:20 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 12:52 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 8:06 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 9:26 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 7:59 Gerd Möllmann
2023-08-13 8:44 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-09 9:46 Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 10:55 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 11:03 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 11:29 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-09 12:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-09 15:51 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 23:56 ` Po Lu
2023-08-10 1:19 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 1:47 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10 1:58 ` Eric Frederickson
2023-08-10 2:07 ` Sam James
2023-08-10 2:44 ` Po Lu
2023-08-10 6:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:21 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:19 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-10 21:56 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 5:46 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 8:45 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 11:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 12:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-11 13:16 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 2:28 ` Po Lu
2023-08-10 4:15 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-10 7:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 21:54 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-10 23:49 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-11 0:03 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-11 8:24 ` Immanuel Litzroth
2023-08-11 7:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-11 7:19 ` tomas
2023-08-11 10:57 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-10 11:28 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-08-10 21:26 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-12 2:46 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-12 3:22 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 8:33 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 15:58 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 9:13 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 9:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 10:23 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-13 20:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 0:13 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 18:32 ` tomas
2023-08-12 22:08 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 23:09 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 5:50 ` tomas
2023-08-13 8:38 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-13 8:00 ` Andreas Schwab
2023-08-13 9:21 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 7:27 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-14 7:36 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-14 7:50 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-15 22:57 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-16 10:27 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-19 13:29 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 5:09 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 6:51 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 7:14 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 7:52 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 13:01 ` tomas
2023-08-20 13:12 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 8:28 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 9:29 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 15:22 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 15:36 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 15:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 15:54 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:29 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:37 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:31 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:07 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-27 3:53 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-20 19:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 19:24 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 2:33 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 4:11 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 4:15 ` Po Lu
2023-08-21 4:36 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 4:43 ` Po Lu
2023-08-21 5:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 5:34 ` Po Lu
2023-08-27 2:04 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 7:59 ` Gregory Heytings
2023-08-27 5:31 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 6:16 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 10:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:56 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-28 4:41 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-28 11:27 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:15 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 20:39 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 5:59 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 6:23 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:21 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 7:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:52 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 10:46 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:02 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-27 4:01 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 8:53 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 3:48 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 9:06 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-27 3:25 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-27 8:55 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 16:03 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 16:34 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 17:19 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 17:25 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 18:54 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-20 19:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 20:11 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 21:09 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 2:01 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-26 5:48 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-26 18:15 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-26 18:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-20 19:44 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:11 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 2:35 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 8:48 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 11:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-21 11:59 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 12:23 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-23 10:13 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-20 20:32 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-21 6:19 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 6:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:21 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 7:25 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-21 7:52 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-21 11:26 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-22 23:55 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-23 7:04 ` Alfred M. Szmidt
2023-08-23 17:24 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-24 20:02 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-18 8:35 ` Aurélien Aptel
2023-08-19 13:32 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-31 1:41 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 2:36 ` Richard Stallman
2023-08-14 4:12 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-14 11:15 ` Ihor Radchenko
2023-08-12 3:28 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12 3:48 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 3:50 ` Emanuel Berg
2023-08-12 6:00 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-12 6:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-12 7:38 ` Christopher Dimech
2023-08-09 12:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 16:11 ` Eric S. Raymond
2023-08-09 16:44 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-08-09 17:57 ` Eric S. Raymond
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