* Re: Emacs As a Wayland WM? Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
@ 2022-09-05 15:34 Payas Relekar
2022-09-05 16:03 ` Robert Pluim
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-09-05 15:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: emacs-devel
Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2022 07:29:59 -0700, "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com> said:
>
> T> Suppose we: ...
> T> 1. Look forward to the Wayland-only world (ie No X) I know that will be
> T> a while...
> T> 2. But suppose, in that world, we could write an Emacs Window Manager
> T> (whatever that means under Wayland) ...
> T> 3 Will things get easier in that somewhat pure world where one doesn't
> T> have to both look backwards and forwards as we are apparently forced
> T> to do right now?
>
> I donʼt know about the equivalent of exwm, but forking wlroots and
> fixing up some of the more egregious annoyances might be doable.
What annoyances can you think of? AFAIK wlroots was made to be used by
other WMs, of which there are few. None as prominant as Sway, but
they're there. The authors(Drew and Simon) have been fairly responsive to accommodate
requirements of other WMs and maybe we can communicate instead of hard
fork.
Thanks,
Payas
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs As a Wayland WM? Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-09-05 15:34 Emacs As a Wayland WM? Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Payas Relekar
@ 2022-09-05 16:03 ` Robert Pluim
0 siblings, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2022-09-05 16:03 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Payas Relekar; +Cc: emacs-devel
>>>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2022 21:04:05 +0530, Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> said:
Payas> Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2022 07:29:59 -0700, "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com> said:
>>
T> Suppose we: ...
T> 1. Look forward to the Wayland-only world (ie No X) I know that will be
T> a while...
T> 2. But suppose, in that world, we could write an Emacs Window Manager
T> (whatever that means under Wayland) ...
T> 3 Will things get easier in that somewhat pure world where one doesn't
T> have to both look backwards and forwards as we are apparently forced
T> to do right now?
>>
>> I donʼt know about the equivalent of exwm, but forking wlroots and
>> fixing up some of the more egregious annoyances might be doable.
Payas> What annoyances can you think of? AFAIK wlroots was made to be used by
Payas> other WMs, of which there are few. None as prominant as Sway, but
Payas> they're there. The authors(Drew and Simon) have been fairly responsive to accommodate
Payas> requirements of other WMs and maybe we can communicate instead of hard
Payas> fork.
Not being allowed to tell the WM what coordinates you want new
top-level windows to be placed at is the first one that springs to
mind. Although that may be a Wayland issue rather than a wlroots
issue.
Robert
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
@ 2022-08-23 7:00 Payas Relekar
2022-08-23 7:17 ` Po Lu
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Payas Relekar @ 2022-08-23 7:00 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen, Gregory Heytings, emacs-devel
Po Lu <luangruo@yahoo.com> writes:
> But after some investigation, I've come to the conclusion that no
> toolkit will be able to replace the hand-crafted Emacs X11 support,
> especially in very tricky areas such as drag-and-drop and selections.
How much of an issue will this be on Wayland systems? Considering GTK4
will probably drop X11 support, and Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu (likely
covering vast majority of Linux desktop) are Wayland default, how much
of a critical dependence do we have on custom X11 support, and how much
can we afford to rely on Qt to not have these issues on Wayland?
Thanks,
Payas
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-08-23 7:00 Payas Relekar
@ 2022-08-23 7:17 ` Po Lu
2022-08-24 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu @ 2022-08-23 7:17 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Payas Relekar; +Cc: Lars Ingebrigtsen, Gregory Heytings, emacs-devel
Payas Relekar <relekarpayas@gmail.com> writes:
> How much of an issue will this be on Wayland systems? Considering GTK4
^^^^
That will hopefully be GTK 5.
> will probably drop X11 support, and Fedora, Debian and Ubuntu (likely
> covering vast majority of Linux desktop) are Wayland default, how much
> of a critical dependence do we have on custom X11 support, and how much
> can we afford to rely on Qt to not have these issues on Wayland?
It will not affect Wayland at all, since the Wayland drag-and-drop API
is too limited to allow Emacs to implement drag-and-drop properly there.
Most importantly, there is no way to cancel drag-and-drop after it
begins (think C-g), or to receive a notification when the pointer
reenters the frame where it originated after leaving.
X will probably remain the primary window server for the next decade or
so. Anyone who doesn't want to use one of the several Wayland-ready
desktop environments on supported hardware will have to use X, even if
Wayland is the default on most distros.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-08-23 7:17 ` Po Lu
@ 2022-08-24 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
2022-08-24 4:18 ` Po Lu
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2022-08-24 3:52 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: relekarpayas, larsi, gregory, emacs-devel
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> It will not affect Wayland at all, since the Wayland drag-and-drop API
> is too limited to allow Emacs to implement drag-and-drop properly there.
> Most importantly, there is no way to cancel drag-and-drop after it
> begins (think C-g), or to receive a notification when the pointer
> reenters the frame where it originated after leaving.
That sounds like a serious flaw in Wayland. Would its developers
want to fix it? Does it have other UI drawbacks compared with X11,
and would its developers want to fix them?
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-08-24 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2022-08-24 4:18 ` Po Lu
2022-08-26 3:36 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu @ 2022-08-24 4:18 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: relekarpayas, larsi, gregory, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> That sounds like a serious flaw in Wayland. Would its developers
> want to fix it?
Probably not.
> Does it have other UI drawbacks compared with X11, and would its
> developers want to fix them?
The most glaring one is the inability to position toplevel windows
manually, for "security reasons". The developers don't want to fix it.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-08-24 4:18 ` Po Lu
@ 2022-08-26 3:36 ` Richard Stallman
2022-08-26 4:34 ` Po Lu
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2022-08-26 3:36 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: relekarpayas, larsi, gregory, emacs-devel
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> > That sounds like a serious flaw in Wayland. Would its developers
> > want to fix it?
> Probably not.
Why not?
> The most glaring one is the inability to position toplevel windows
> manually, for "security reasons".
I don't quite understand -- what does it mean, concretely, to
"position toplevel windows manually"? What are "toplevel windows" in
this context? Is an Emacs frame a toplevel window? Does this mean
that the user can't move an Emacs frame on the screen?
> I thought it was because the Wayland people have a philosophical
> objection to programs knowing anything about the coordinate system in
> use.
What coordinate system is this about?
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-08-26 3:36 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2022-08-26 4:34 ` Po Lu
2022-09-04 3:01 ` Richard Stallman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu @ 2022-08-26 4:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Richard Stallman; +Cc: relekarpayas, larsi, gregory, emacs-devel
Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
> Why not?
They object to it based on some poorly defined principle that is a
combination of "security" and something else I can't put my finger on.
> > The most glaring one is the inability to position toplevel windows
> > manually, for "security reasons".
>
> I don't quite understand -- what does it mean, concretely, to
> "position toplevel windows manually"? What are "toplevel windows" in
> this context? Is an Emacs frame a toplevel window?
Yes.
> Does this mean that the user can't move an Emacs frame on the screen?
No, this means functions like `set-frame-position' can't move the frame
on the screen. The only way to move the frame is by the user dragging
it with the mouse.
> > I thought it was because the Wayland people have a philosophical
> > objection to programs knowing anything about the coordinate system in
> > use.
>
> What coordinate system is this about?
The coordinate system of the screen.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-08-26 4:34 ` Po Lu
@ 2022-09-04 3:01 ` Richard Stallman
2022-09-04 5:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Richard Stallman @ 2022-09-04 3:01 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: emacs-devel
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]
> > Does this mean that the user can't move an Emacs frame on the screen?
> No, this means functions like `set-frame-position' can't move the frame
> on the screen. The only way to move the frame is by the user dragging
> it with the mouse.
Thanks.
I don't know whether that limitation is necessary or justified in some way,
but I think that most users don't use `set-frame-position'.
I don't think this will be a big practical problem for users.
--
Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org)
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-09-04 3:01 ` Richard Stallman
@ 2022-09-04 5:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-09-05 8:34 ` Robert Pluim
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Eli Zaretskii @ 2022-09-04 5:14 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: rms; +Cc: luangruo, emacs-devel
> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 23:01:31 -0400
>
> > No, this means functions like `set-frame-position' can't move the frame
> > on the screen. The only way to move the frame is by the user dragging
> > it with the mouse.
>
> Thanks.
>
> I don't know whether that limitation is necessary or justified in some way,
> but I think that most users don't use `set-frame-position'.
Emacs itself uses set-frame-position. It also moves frames on display
via the 'top' and 'left' frame parameters. One notable case where
this happens is the desktop.el package, which restores frame and
window configuration of a previous Emacs session.
So I think the inability to do that is quite a big deal for Emacs
users.
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-09-04 5:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
@ 2022-09-05 8:34 ` Robert Pluim
2022-09-05 14:12 ` Po Lu
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2022-09-05 8:34 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Eli Zaretskii; +Cc: rms, luangruo, emacs-devel
>>>>> On Sun, 04 Sep 2022 08:14:54 +0300, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org> said:
>> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
>> Cc: emacs-devel@gnu.org
>> Date: Sat, 03 Sep 2022 23:01:31 -0400
>>
>> > No, this means functions like `set-frame-position' can't move the frame
>> > on the screen. The only way to move the frame is by the user dragging
>> > it with the mouse.
>>
>> Thanks.
>>
>> I don't know whether that limitation is necessary or justified in some way,
>> but I think that most users don't use `set-frame-position'.
Eli> Emacs itself uses set-frame-position. It also moves frames on display
Eli> via the 'top' and 'left' frame parameters. One notable case where
Eli> this happens is the desktop.el package, which restores frame and
Eli> window configuration of a previous Emacs session.
And there are packages that want to put frames at specific positions,
such as speedbar (plus the various "pop up frame" packages whose names
I canʼt recall right now)
Eli> So I think the inability to do that is quite a big deal for Emacs
Eli> users.
Yes. Itʼs very annoying.
Robert
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-09-05 8:34 ` Robert Pluim
@ 2022-09-05 14:12 ` Po Lu
2022-09-05 14:29 ` Emacs As a Wayland WM? " T.V Raman
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: Po Lu @ 2022-09-05 14:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Robert Pluim; +Cc: Eli Zaretskii, rms, emacs-devel
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 444 bytes --]
Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com> writes:
> Yes. Itʼs very annoying.
I agree completely. In the meantime, I have been working on a highly
effective solution for Wayland-only programs (Waydroid comes into mind),
which is to run them under X.
Work in progress code, but worth trying. Drag-and-drop among Wayland
programs and from Wayland into X does not yet work, along with input
methods and Firefox. And it is probably buggy.
[-- Attachment #2: Wayland compatibility layer --]
[-- Type: application/gzip, Size: 181032 bytes --]
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Emacs As a Wayland WM? Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-09-05 14:12 ` Po Lu
@ 2022-09-05 14:29 ` T.V Raman
2022-09-05 15:12 ` Robert Pluim
0 siblings, 1 reply; 4+ messages in thread
From: T.V Raman @ 2022-09-05 14:29 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: Po Lu; +Cc: Robert Pluim, Eli Zaretskii, rms, emacs-devel
[-- Warning: decoded text below may be mangled, UTF-8 assumed --]
[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain; charset=gb18030, Size: 493 bytes --]
Suppose we: ...
1. Look forward to the Wayland-only world (ie No X) I know that will be
a while...
2. But suppose, in that world, we could write an Emacs Window Manager
(whatever that means under Wayland) ...
3 Will things get easier in that somewhat pure world where one doesn't
have to both look backwards and forwards as we are apparently forced
to do right now?
--
Thanks,
--Raman(I Search, I Find, I Misplace, I Research)
7©4 Id: kg:/m/0285kf1 0Ü8
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
* Re: Emacs As a Wayland WM? Re: Abysmal state of GTK build
2022-09-05 14:29 ` Emacs As a Wayland WM? " T.V Raman
@ 2022-09-05 15:12 ` Robert Pluim
0 siblings, 0 replies; 4+ messages in thread
From: Robert Pluim @ 2022-09-05 15:12 UTC (permalink / raw)
To: T.V Raman; +Cc: Po Lu, Eli Zaretskii, rms, emacs-devel
>>>>> On Mon, 05 Sep 2022 07:29:59 -0700, "T.V Raman" <raman@google.com> said:
T> Suppose we: ...
T> 1. Look forward to the Wayland-only world (ie No X) I know that will be
T> a while...
T> 2. But suppose, in that world, we could write an Emacs Window Manager
T> (whatever that means under Wayland) ...
T> 3 Will things get easier in that somewhat pure world where one doesn't
T> have to both look backwards and forwards as we are apparently forced
T> to do right now?
I donʼt know about the equivalent of exwm, but forking wlroots and
fixing up some of the more egregious annoyances might be doable.
Robert
--
^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 4+ messages in thread
end of thread, other threads:[~2022-09-05 16:03 UTC | newest]
Thread overview: 4+ messages (download: mbox.gz / follow: Atom feed)
-- links below jump to the message on this page --
2022-09-05 15:34 Emacs As a Wayland WM? Re: Abysmal state of GTK build Payas Relekar
2022-09-05 16:03 ` Robert Pluim
-- strict thread matches above, loose matches on Subject: below --
2022-08-23 7:00 Payas Relekar
2022-08-23 7:17 ` Po Lu
2022-08-24 3:52 ` Richard Stallman
2022-08-24 4:18 ` Po Lu
2022-08-26 3:36 ` Richard Stallman
2022-08-26 4:34 ` Po Lu
2022-09-04 3:01 ` Richard Stallman
2022-09-04 5:14 ` Eli Zaretskii
2022-09-05 8:34 ` Robert Pluim
2022-09-05 14:12 ` Po Lu
2022-09-05 14:29 ` Emacs As a Wayland WM? " T.V Raman
2022-09-05 15:12 ` Robert Pluim
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this external index
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git
https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs/org-mode.git
This is an external index of several public inboxes,
see mirroring instructions on how to clone and mirror
all data and code used by this external index.