unofficial mirror of emacs-devel@gnu.org 
 help / color / mirror / code / Atom feed
From: Dmitry Gutov <dmitry@gutov.dev>
To: "João Távora" <joaotavora@gmail.com>
Cc: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
	arne_bab@web.de, jporterbugs@gmail.com,
	emacs-devel <emacs-devel@gnu.org>
Subject: Re: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot)
Date: Thu, 20 Apr 2023 05:04:23 +0300	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <a09ec705-3a69-9aab-d039-a640638e10bc@gutov.dev> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CALDnm515DPgNuHiyFnng_EaMrDnH0K-dKONVKvN0VJF1oocVRQ@mail.gmail.com>

On 20/04/2023 04:49, João Távora wrote:

>> Not to say it's a bad project (I'll try to migrate my authored packages
>> to it one day, since it seems to make that natural), but for an average
>> user? I don't think so.
> 
> I don't know.  I see a lot of people using it, and have seen that
> for a long time.  The average user googles things and lands on reddits
> hits.  ChatGPT teaches you "straight.el" too (if you ask it).

I've had problems reported because of outdated straight recipes on 
users' machines. It seems like a fine tool for a hacker, though.

>> I would suggest to start recommending ways to perform an upgrade
>> explicitly (somewhere in the README, in the manual, and so on). Like
>> 'M-x package-upgrade', if we manage to get it fixed in Emacs 29.
> 
> That's a big if.  My worry here is how to clearly control this
> messaging, especially when dealing with cleanly deterministic
> bug reports.  I have to know exactly the version that he user
> is running.  Recently, I've become adept at doing:
> 
> HOME=`mktemp -d` emacs -l recipe.el
> 
> It's a very good way to establish sanity.  And until now recipe.el
> could have just `(package-install 'eglot)` and I would know exactly
> what packages the user has installed.  The answer will now
> be different in Emacs 28 vs Emacs 29.  Mind you, I will still
> know, of course, but the thing installed on Emacs 28 will be
> wildly different than the one installed on Emacs 29.  And,
> as I said before and everybody understands, it will get worse with
> time.  So what form to give users??

If we go for the pinning approach, as Jim suggested, and the fix for 
that one makes it in in time, the form could like like

   (use-package eglot :ensure t :pin gnu)

and hopefully work across 28, 29 and later.

>> To name an example: 'package-install' will upgrade Eglot even though
>> (package-installed-p 'eglot) already returns t.
> 
> Even with today's patch in Emacs 29 that already happens if you tweak
> the new "heavy-handed" variable.  So I guess that isn't a problem.

I'm not sure I like that one either.



  reply	other threads:[~2023-04-20  2:04 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 92+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <87a5zj2vfo.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found] ` <83wn2h5825.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]   ` <87wn2gkhzr.fsf@posteo.net>
     [not found]     ` <83cz485oxi.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]       ` <87leiwdyff.fsf@posteo.net>
     [not found]         ` <834jpk5hih.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]           ` <871qkom3fj.fsf@posteo.net>
     [not found]             ` <83mt3b4yfc.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]               ` <87edonlsxi.fsf@posteo.net>
     [not found]                 ` <83jzyf4vzb.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                   ` <871qknllkj.fsf@posteo.net>
     [not found]                     ` <83fs934pjf.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                       ` <87wn2fk47y.fsf@posteo.net>
     [not found]                         ` <83sfd2g2ek.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                           ` <875y9yfxrr.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]                             ` <CALDnm50-Su4SAGDSBiLjt0yrjrVsvyW71NSMi=zt7uHgv7rdng@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                               ` <87y1muefks.fsf@gmail.com>
     [not found]                                 ` <CALDnm50b6hRu+4EFqQDVydOF07HdiZT4nHA=aLDjYQKtMBTk2Q@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                   ` <fc2ed4a0-2368-682d-e34d-5cf94ac261fc@gutov.dev>
     [not found]                                     ` <CALDnm527Avsa-MBTD-bvRqOn52AeBLfPvffxjL-NB3tqM=43ZQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                       ` <834jpifizy.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                         ` <CALDnm53X5Yyn_EitG+iHJVx=RO2hjNaWkrgPz0+jKVWVM=eEBQ@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                           ` <83y1mue1qi.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                             ` <CALDnm51hmRMxstQdZdstA2LrbvYw=zD5=XRVy6uCU=Z+OmONRg@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                               ` <83sfd2e01f.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                                 ` <1a5e5837-513b-84d8-3260-cdbf42b71267@gutov.dev>
     [not found]                                                   ` <83sfcz9rf2.fsf@gnu.org>
     [not found]                                                     ` <09a49ab9-ac72-36a9-3e68-9c633710eba7@gutov.dev>
2023-04-18 12:57                                                       ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 14:02                                                         ` João Távora
2023-04-18 14:47                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 15:45                                                             ` João Távora
2023-04-18 16:19                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 17:49                                                                 ` João Távora
2023-04-18 21:19                                                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-18 18:56                                                         ` Jim Porter
2023-04-18 19:21                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-18 19:36                                                             ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 11:55                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19  8:50                                                           ` João Távora
2023-04-19 12:13                                                             ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2023-04-19 17:03                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 17:21                                                                 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:07                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:14                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 18:32                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:33                                                                         ` João Távora
2023-04-20  4:26                                                                           ` tomas
2023-04-19 19:39                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 19:46                                                                           ` João Távora
2023-04-19 20:50                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 20:57                                                                               ` João Távora
2023-04-19 21:58                                                                                 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:29                                                                                   ` João Távora
2023-04-19 22:42                                                                                     ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:58                                                                                       ` João Távora
2023-04-19 22:06                                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 22:21                                                                                   ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:27                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 22:43                                                                                       ` Jim Porter
     [not found]                                                                                 ` <f32d7008-ea39-a9d7-8224-2c5b969236b7@gutov.dev>
     [not found]                                                                                   ` <CALDnm53vPnODxpv_=nvOHRjLX-PfhyTS0MFudR0qZ3Pa-Lw-AQ@mail.gmail.com>
2023-04-19 23:25                                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20  0:13                                                                                       ` João Távora
2023-04-20  1:13                                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20  1:49                                                                                           ` João Távora
2023-04-20  2:04                                                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov [this message]
2023-04-19 19:15                                                                     ` João Távora
2023-04-20  9:38                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20  9:48                                                                         ` João Távora
2023-04-20 11:47                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 12:00                                                                             ` João Távora
2023-04-20 12:16                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 12:24                                                                                 ` João Távora
2023-04-19 17:35                                                                 ` John Yates
2023-04-19 17:42                                                                   ` João Távora
2023-04-19 18:02                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:04                                                                 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 18:34                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:35                                                                     ` Jim Porter
2023-04-20  9:49                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:40                                                                 ` Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide
2023-04-20  6:02                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-29  5:21                                                                     ` Stability of core packages emacs
2023-04-29  6:26                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-29 21:47                                                                         ` Mohsen BANAN
2023-04-30  6:21                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-30  9:07                                                                           ` Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-30 13:12                                                                           ` Corwin Brust
2023-05-07  5:58                                                                             ` Mohsen BANAN
2023-05-05  4:36                                                                       ` David Masterson
2023-05-05  4:56                                                                       ` David Masterson
     [not found]                                                                       ` <878re3bdj6.fsf@penguin>
2023-05-05  4:59                                                                         ` David Masterson
2023-04-19 12:55                                                             ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 13:18                                                               ` João Távora
2023-04-19 13:44                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 14:13                                                                   ` João Távora
2023-04-18 22:10                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19  8:34                                                           ` João Távora
2023-04-19 12:47                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 18:22                                                             ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 18:37                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-19 19:32                                                                 ` Jim Porter
2023-04-19 22:51                                                                 ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-20 13:47                                                                   ` history of ELPA packages and dependencies (was: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot)) Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-20 13:58                                                                   ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-19 19:25                                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-19 19:40                                                               ` João Távora
2023-04-20  9:47                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 13:03                                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:03                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 14:22                                                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 14:42                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 15:30                                                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-20 15:49                                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 17:26                                                                             ` Stability of core packages Philip Kaludercic
2023-04-20 18:46                                                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2023-04-20 21:25                                                                             ` Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot) Dmitry Gutov
2023-04-21 14:12                                                                             ` Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-19 12:31                                                         ` What is :core? (was: Stability of core packages (was: Not easy at all to upgrade :core packages like Eglot)) Lynn Winebarger
2023-04-19 12:57                                                           ` João Távora
2023-04-19 13:03                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

  List information: https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=a09ec705-3a69-9aab-d039-a640638e10bc@gutov.dev \
    --to=dmitry@gutov.dev \
    --cc=arne_bab@web.de \
    --cc=eliz@gnu.org \
    --cc=emacs-devel@gnu.org \
    --cc=joaotavora@gmail.com \
    --cc=jporterbugs@gmail.com \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
Code repositories for project(s) associated with this public inbox

	https://git.savannah.gnu.org/cgit/emacs.git

This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for read-only IMAP folder(s) and NNTP newsgroup(s).