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From: Alan Mackenzie <acm@muc.de>
To: Yuri Khan <yuri.v.khan@gmail.com>
Cc: Stefan Kangas <stefan@marxist.se>,
	Emacs developers <emacs-devel@gnu.org>,
	martin rudalics <rudalics@gmx.at>,
	Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org>,
	Stefan Monnier <monnier@iro.umontreal.ca>,
	Dmitry Gutov <dgutov@yandex.ru>, Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>,
	Juri Linkov <juri@linkov.net>,
	Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen <larsi@gnus.org>
Subject: Re: master ff4de1b: Fix quoting style in Lisp comments
Date: Fri, 17 Sep 2021 16:44:40 +0000	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <YUTF+EPPo7aiG55G@ACM> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAP_d_8XUxo3vVdwCF9PKk1=-Zb3WrHO=rmhxRZVGJ7wb6Qku8A@mail.gmail.com>

On Fri, Sep 17, 2021 at 23:21:41 +0700, Yuri Khan wrote:
> On Fri, 17 Sept 2021 at 19:32, Gregory Heytings <gregory@heytings.org> wrote:

> > Except that doing this throws the baby out with the bathwater.  If
> > some think it looks ugly, it is IMO better to make it look better,
> > instead of stopping to use it.  Because it's much easier to parse
> > (as a pair) than double apostrophes.  It's a historical accident
> > that ASCII included paired {} () [] <>, but no paired quotation
> > marks.

> It’s a historical accident that the typewriter character set conflated
> the opening single quote, closing single quote, apostrophe, acute
> accent, and single prime. It is also a historical accident that the
> grave accent ` was born as a separate spacing character at all — and
> that is why I, among others, consider it ugly. Both these accidents
> are canonically fixed by Unicode.

Unicode is just a code.  To say it's a fix for the current problems is
to make a category error.  What you're really saying is that some
Unicode decorative (as opposed to functional) characters solve this
problem.  They don't, precisely because they're only decorative
characters.

> In my opinion, it is a mistake to avoid Unicode characters for the
> reason that some terminals cannot display them.

In my opinion, it's a good reason to avoid these impractical characters,
but not the most important one.

> Teach those terminals to map them to dumb quotes instead. Also, if
> Unicode quotation marks are hard to enter, push for better keyboard
> layouts.

This is the killer.  These decorative quote marks aren't merely hard to
enter, they're near to impossible on a qwerty (or similar) keyboard
layout.  This is a marked inconvenience to me when reading Info manuals.
I used to be able to search for the `marks' around symbols.  Since the
TexInfo people started using decorative characters, I can't do this any
more.

I can't type these characters.  More to the point, I can't refer to them
after other people have typed them.  Their introduction would signal a
loss in productivity and and increase in irritation for Emacs
developers.

The thing to alter, as Gregory said, is the appearance of the ASCII
characters on the terminals of those who find them annoying.

> (Personally, I have all of “”‘’…–—«»°®©™≤≥§−±×÷≈ in my AltGr layer.)

I only have characters there I need only rarely.

-- 
Alan Mackenzie (Nuremberg, Germany).



  parent reply	other threads:[~2021-09-17 16:44 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 159+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <20210912165141.9491.52637@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org>
     [not found] ` <20210912165143.5BC1E20A5E@vcs0.savannah.gnu.org>
2021-09-12 22:42   ` master ff4de1b: Fix quoting style in Lisp comments Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-13  8:06     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-13 12:01       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-14  2:14         ` Phil Sainty
2021-09-13 11:34     ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-13 11:41       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-13 12:23         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-13 12:36         ` martin rudalics
2021-09-13 16:53           ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-13 18:25             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-15  9:27               ` martin rudalics
2021-09-15 12:42                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-15 18:46                   ` martin rudalics
2021-09-15 16:02                 ` Juri Linkov
2021-09-15 16:30                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-15 18:07                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-15 18:16                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-15 18:20                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-15 21:12                           ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-15 18:40                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-15 18:52                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-15 20:01                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-15 20:15                               ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-15 21:24                                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-16  5:08                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 10:39                                   ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16 12:32                                     ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-16 12:53                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 13:37                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16 23:20                                           ` Phil Sainty
2021-09-18  0:15                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16 16:19                                         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-17 14:12                                         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-17 15:58                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 19:21                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18  5:42                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18  8:17                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18  8:26                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18 13:30                                             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-18 13:34                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18 16:03                                                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-18 16:13                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18 16:52                                                     ` Drew Adams
2021-09-18 16:54                                                       ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-18 17:07                                                         ` Drew Adams
2021-09-16 13:31                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 16:20                                         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-16 14:15                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 14:18                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16 15:22                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 16:20                                         ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-17  9:17                                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-09-17 10:26                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-17 10:39                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 22:46                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18  6:19                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18  7:32                                                 ` Andreas Schwab
2021-09-18  8:20                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18  8:37                                                     ` Adam Sjøgren
2021-09-18  8:44                                                     ` Gregory Heytings
2021-09-18  8:48                                                     ` Yuri Khan
2021-09-18 11:50                                                       ` Phil Sainty
2021-09-18 11:54                                                         ` Yuri Khan
2021-09-18 16:03                                                           ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-18 16:02                                                         ` Drew Adams
2021-09-18 16:02                                                       ` Drew Adams
2021-09-18 16:01                                                     ` Drew Adams
2021-09-18 16:01                                                   ` Drew Adams
2021-09-18  8:17                                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18  8:25                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18  9:18                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18 11:00                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18 16:02                                                     ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-18  9:28                                                   ` Yuri Khan
2021-09-18 10:05                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18 10:27                                                       ` Yuri Khan
2021-09-18 10:51                                                         ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18 18:40                                                           ` Juri Linkov
2021-09-18 18:56                                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18 19:34                                                               ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18 23:22                                                                 ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-19  5:44                                                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-19 10:00                                                                     ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-19 17:30                                                                     ` Drew Adams
2021-09-19 17:42                                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-19 17:54                                                                         ` Drew Adams
2021-09-21 14:38                                                                           ` Jean Louis
2021-09-21 17:04                                                                             ` tomas
2021-09-21 17:09                                                                               ` tomas
2021-09-24 20:42                                                                               ` Richard Stallman
2021-09-19  5:30                                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 10:55                                           ` Gregory Heytings
2021-09-17 11:16                                             ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 11:30                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-09-17 12:11                                                 ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 12:30                                                   ` Gregory Heytings
2021-09-17 16:21                                                     ` Yuri Khan
2021-09-17 16:40                                                       ` João Távora
2021-09-17 16:44                                                       ` Alan Mackenzie [this message]
2021-09-17 17:47                                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 18:42                                                         ` Yuri Khan
2021-09-17 18:51                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 19:14                                                       ` Gregory Heytings
2021-09-17 19:22                                                         ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-17 20:32                                                           ` Manuel Giraud
2021-09-17 22:16                                                             ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-18 13:45                                                             ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-18 16:03                                                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-18 17:25                                                                 ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-18 17:46                                                                   ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18 23:11                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-18 23:22                                                                   ` Drew Adams
2021-09-19 12:26                                                                     ` Stefan Monnier
2021-09-18  5:43                                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-18  8:33                                                             ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-18  8:53                                                               ` Gregory Heytings
2021-09-17 18:09                                                   ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-17 18:09                                           ` Drew Adams
2021-09-16 16:18                                   ` Drew Adams
2021-09-16 10:50                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16 11:39                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 14:12                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16 16:20                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-16 16:18                                     ` Drew Adams
2021-09-16 11:25                                 ` Stefan Kangas
2021-09-17  0:16                                 ` Richard Stallman
2021-09-17  0:27                                   ` Alexandre Garreau
2021-09-17  6:34                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 10:44                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-17 11:11                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 11:25                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-17 12:09                                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 12:38                                             ` Phil Sainty
2021-09-17 12:59                                               ` Tassilo Horn
2021-09-17 15:45                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 13:07                                             ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-17 13:44                                               ` João Távora
2021-09-17 15:49                                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-17 16:33                                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-17 18:10                                               ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-17 13:18                                           ` Amin Bandali
2021-09-17 18:09                                       ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-16  4:53                               ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16  8:51                                 ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16  9:11                                   ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 10:34                                     ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-16 11:35                                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 13:38                                         ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-15 18:48                     ` martin rudalics
2021-09-15 19:05                       ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16  6:56                         ` martin rudalics
2021-09-16  7:11                           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-16 16:18                             ` [External] : " Drew Adams
2021-09-13 11:51       ` Dmitry Gutov
2021-09-13 12:05         ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-13 12:28           ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-13 12:29             ` Lars Ingebrigtsen
2021-09-13 12:26         ` Eli Zaretskii
2021-09-13 12:56           ` Dmitry Gutov

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