GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Eduardo Ochs]

Hi list,

this is so different from the raisons d'être for Emacs that are being
discussed in the other thread that I felt that it would be better to
create a new thread to discuss it...

This is a section from rms's "EMACS: The Extensible, Customizable
Display Editor", published in 1981 -
<https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-paper.html#SEC29>:


  The programmable editor is an outstanding opportunity to learn to
  program! A beginner can see the effect of his simple program on the
  text he is editing; this feedback is fast and in an easily
  understood form. Educators have found display programming to be very
  suited for children experimenting with programming, for just this
  reason (see LOGO).

  Programming editor commands has the additional advantage that a
  program need not be very large to be tangibly useful in editing. A
  first project can be very simple. One can thus slide very smoothly
  from using the editor to edit into learning to program with it.

  When large numbers of nontechnical workers are using a programmable
  editor, they will he tempted constantly to begin programming in the
  course of their day-to-day lives. This should contribute greatly to
  computer literacy, especially because many of the people thus
  exposed will be secretaries taught by society that they are
  incapable of doing mathematics, and unable to imagine for a moment
  that they can learn to program. But that won't stop them from
  learning it if they don't know that it is programming that they are
  learning! According to Bernard Greenberg, this is already happening
  with Multics EMACS.


Emacs lets people with very little experience in programming write
useful programs that are just one or two lines long - and this turns
non-programmers into programmers magically, sometimes without them
noticing. In many cases new users start writing one-liners in Lisp in
their first days using Emacs - so for them it takes just a few days to
be magically transformed into a programmer.

This is very different from having to invest time in energy in Emacs
during years to be adequately rewarded.

Disclaimer: I am ***EXTREMELY*** biased. I just grepped my notes in
http://angg.twu.net/e/ and found more than 50000 elisp one-liners in
that directory only - and for me the main raison d'être of Emacs is
C-x C-e... so these are my biased two cents. =/


  Cheers,
    Eduardo Ochs
    http://angg.twu.net/emacsconf2019.html
    http://angg.twu.net/emacs.html

RE: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Drew Adams]

> this is so different from the raisons d'être for Emacs that are being
> discussed in the other thread that I felt that it would be better to
> create a new thread to discuss it...
> 
> This is a section from rms's "EMACS: The Extensible, Customizable
> Display Editor", published in 1981 -
> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/emacs-
> paper.html*SEC29__;Iw!!GqivPVa7Brio!M-U6Wbp7ap79xOWTYQLSiCWp_QLsdmvU-
> rj-VZZ2gQwdJVxybVBOv-5WDb6V7w-R$ >:

A worthwhile addition to the discussion.  Thx.

Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[excalamus--- via Emacs development discussions.]

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May 14, 2020, 02:24 by eduardoochs@gmail.com:

> this is so different from the raisons d'être for Emacs that are being
> discussed in the other thread that I felt that it would be better to
> create a new thread to discuss it...
>
> Emacs lets people with very little experience in programming write
> useful programs that are just one or two lines long - and this turns
> non-programmers into programmers magically, sometimes without them
> noticing. In many cases new users start writing one-liners in Lisp in
> their first days using Emacs - so for them it takes just a few days to
> be magically transformed into a programmer.
>
> This is very different from having to invest time in energy in Emacs
> during years to be adequately rewarded.
>
Agreed! I brought this up in the other thread: https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/emacs-devel/2020-05/msg01872.html  I concluded that Emacs seems unique because it occupies a unique space between user and creator.  Your observations match mine, so maybe a unique space *does* exist.

My questions to you:
1. What makes that space the way it is?
2. Do other editors, like VSCode, exist in it, too?  If yes, why does GNU Emacs feel different?  If no, why not?

The best description of that space that I can think of is the Zone of Proximal Development (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_proximal_development) <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zone_of_proximal_development>:

The zone of proximal development is an area of learning that occurs when a person is assisted by a teacher or peer with a higher skill set.  The person learning the skill set cannot complete it without the assistance of the teacher or peer. The teacher then helps the student attain the skill the student is trying to master, until the teacher is no longer needed for that task.

For example:

Emacs presents a challenge to the user.  The challenge can be solved through programming, but the user is unable to do this.  To help, Emacs provides ready made components, functions bound to keys, which complete the task when chained together.  The user realizes at some point that 1) these actions are functions and 2) they have the ability to write them.  Emacs provides the structure required for the user to learn through source code (higher skill set) and C-h f (assistance).

I believe that other editors could occupy this space but do not.  Other editors are either word processors or IDEs.  Emacs is a hybrid; there are authors who use Emacs solely for writing and the are developers who use it solely for programming.  Emacs feels different because it shortens the distance between question and answer.  Other editors require searching externally (does MS Word even still have F1 help?).  Emacs can be searched inside and out.


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Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Thu, 14 May 2020 23:26:05 +0200 (CEST), excalamus--- via "Emacs development discussions." <emacs-devel@gnu.org> said:

    Emacs> Emacs presents a challenge to the user.  The challenge can be solved
    Emacs> through programming, but the user is unable to do this.  To help,
    Emacs> Emacs provides ready made components, functions bound to keys, which
    Emacs> complete the task when chained together.  The user realizes at some
    Emacs> point that 1) these actions are functions and 2) they have the ability
    Emacs> to write them.  Emacs provides the structure required for the user to
    Emacs> learn through source code (higher skill set) and C-h f (assistance).

This is a good explanation of why Emacs is the only editing system
that doesnʼt drive me up the wall: I can mold it as I see fit.

    Emacs> I believe that other editors could occupy this space but do not. 
    Emacs> Other editors are either word processors or IDEs.  Emacs is a hybrid;
    Emacs> there are authors who use Emacs solely for writing and the are
    Emacs> developers who use it solely for programming.  Emacs feels different
    Emacs> because it shortens the distance between question and answer.  Other
    Emacs> editors require searching externally (does MS Word even still have F1
    Emacs> help?).  Emacs can be searched inside and out.

Which is one of Emacs' great strengths, but I fear the current
generation are missing out on it: I see lots of problem reports saying
"website so and so says this, but my Emacs behaves differently", where
the solution is to consult the documentation inside emacs. It appears
people have become conditioned to doing a web search for manuals,
which often donʼt correspond to their installed version (as a
corollary, people almost never specify platform and/or version
either in such reports).

Robert

Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Robert Pluim <rpluim@gmail.com>
> Date: Fri, 15 May 2020 10:55:34 +0200
> Cc: excalamus@tutanota.com, Eduardo Ochs <eduardoochs@gmail.com>
> 
>     Emacs> I believe that other editors could occupy this space but do not. 
>     Emacs> Other editors are either word processors or IDEs.  Emacs is a hybrid;
>     Emacs> there are authors who use Emacs solely for writing and the are
>     Emacs> developers who use it solely for programming.  Emacs feels different
>     Emacs> because it shortens the distance between question and answer.  Other
>     Emacs> editors require searching externally (does MS Word even still have F1
>     Emacs> help?).  Emacs can be searched inside and out.
> 
> Which is one of Emacs' great strengths, but I fear the current
> generation are missing out on it: I see lots of problem reports saying
> "website so and so says this, but my Emacs behaves differently", where
> the solution is to consult the documentation inside emacs. It appears
> people have become conditioned to doing a web search for manuals,

I think this happens because more and more packages come without any
documentation whatsoever.

Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > > "website so and so says this, but my Emacs behaves differently", where
  > > the solution is to consult the documentation inside emacs. It appears
  > > people have become conditioned to doing a web search for manuals,

Perhaps we should make a page and a canned response, "Check the Emacs
manuals before you believe what other people's web site say about
Emacs."  And publicize that in lots of ways.


-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Robert Pluim]

>>>>> On Sat, 16 May 2020 00:19:30 -0400, Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> said:

    Richard> [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
    Richard> [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
    Richard> [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

    >> > "website so and so says this, but my Emacs behaves differently", where
    >> > the solution is to consult the documentation inside emacs. It appears
    >> > people have become conditioned to doing a web search for manuals,

    Richard> Perhaps we should make a page and a canned response, "Check the Emacs
    Richard> manuals before you believe what other people's web site say about
    Richard> Emacs."  And publicize that in lots of ways.

These are not "other people's web sites", theyʼre the Emacs manuals on
gnu.org, just for a different version of Emacs from the one the user
is running.

Robert

Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  >     Richard> Perhaps we should make a page and a canned response, "Check the Emacs
  >     Richard> manuals before you believe what other people's web site say about
  >     Richard> Emacs."  And publicize that in lots of ways.

  > These are not "other people's web sites", theyʼre the Emacs manuals on
  > gnu.org, just for a different version of Emacs from the one the user
  > is running.

That is unfortunate.  Does anyone have a concrete idea for how we could
improve this?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[Stefan Kangas]

Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:

>   >     Richard> Perhaps we should make a page and a canned response, "Check the Emacs
>   >     Richard> manuals before you believe what other people's web site say about
>   >     Richard> Emacs."  And publicize that in lots of ways.
>
>   > These are not "other people's web sites", theyʼre the Emacs manuals on
>   > gnu.org, just for a different version of Emacs from the one the user
>   > is running.
>
> That is unfortunate.  Does anyone have a concrete idea for how we could
> improve this?

AFAICT, we provide only one version of the manual on gnu.org.  Maybe we
should have a copy for each version, with pointers between them.  That
way, a user could still be reading the wrong manual, but at least has a
chance to notice the mistake.

For example, Python does a good job at that: https://docs.python.org/3/

Another idea would be to add a brief note to the top of every page along
the lines of: "This is the web version of the GNU Emacs manual for
version 27.1.  It may or may not correspond to the version of Emacs you
have installed.  You can always read the manual in Emacs with the
command C-h i (press CTRL-h and then i)."

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

Re: GNU Emacs raison d'etre - 1981-ish version

[andres.ramirez]

Hi.

>>>>> "Stefan" == Stefan Kangas <stefankangas@gmail.com> writes:

    Stefan> Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:
    >> > Richard> Perhaps we should make a page and a canned response,
    >> "Check the Emacs > Richard> manuals before you believe what
    >> other people's web site say about > Richard> Emacs."  And
    >> publicize that in lots of ways.
    >> 
    >> > These are not "other people's web sites", theyʼre the Emacs
    >> manuals on > gnu.org, just for a different version of Emacs
    >> from the one the user > is running.
    >> 
    >> That is unfortunate.  Does anyone have a concrete idea for how
    >> we could improve this?

    Stefan> AFAICT, we provide only one version of the manual on
    Stefan> gnu.org.  Maybe we should have a copy for each version,
    Stefan> with pointers between them.  That way, a user could still
    Stefan> be reading the wrong manual, but at least has a chance to
    Stefan> notice the mistake.

What about putting something like this on every node of|on the online html
manual:

You can evaluate this from within emacs itself for getting the right copy for
your emacs version:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
(info "(emacs) File Variables")
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Above is equivalent to:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/File-Variables.html
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---



Best Regards

Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > AFAICT, we provide only one version of the manual on gnu.org.  Maybe we
  > should have a copy for each version, with pointers between them....

  > For example, Python does a good job at that: https://docs.python.org/3/

  > Another idea would be to add a brief note to the top of every page along
  > the lines of: "This is the web version of the GNU Emacs manual for
  > version 27.1.  It may or may not correspond to the version of Emacs you
  > have installed.  You can always read the manual in Emacs with the
  > command C-h i (press CTRL-h and then i)."

They both sound good to me.  Does anyone propose a reason
why one of these should not be done?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[Richard Stallman]

[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider    ]]]
[[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies,     ]]]
[[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]]

  > You can evaluate this from within emacs itself for getting the right copy for
  > your emacs version:
  > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
  > (info "(emacs) File Variables")
  > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

That idea could be better than just a note.

  > Above is equivalent to:
  > --8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
  > https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/File-Variables.html
  > --8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Isn't the reason for the note that these are NOT equivalent?

-- 
Dr Richard Stallman
Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org)
Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org)
Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)

Re: Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[andrés ramírez]

Hi Richard.
>>>>> "Richard" == Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org> writes:


[...]


    >> Above is equivalent to: --8<---------------cut
    >> here---------------start------------->8---
    >> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/emacs/File-Variables.html
    >> --8<---------------cut
    >> here---------------end--------------->8---

    Richard> Isn't the reason for the note that these are NOT
    Richard> equivalent?

On the web it is not equivalent.

But evaluating the info lisp snippet from within emacs itself gives you
the right version.

BTW. Those online html manuals are perfectly rendered from the emacs
browsers:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
eww {built-in web browser}
w3m {installed from package manager}
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

That note You guys were discussing could say:
--8<---------------cut here---------------start------------->8---
'You can navigate this page from within emacs itself with eww'
--8<---------------cut here---------------end--------------->8---

Best Regards.

Re: Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[Joost Kremers]

On Thu, May 21 2020, Richard Stallman wrote:
>   > You can evaluate this from within emacs itself for getting 
>   > the right copy for
>   > your emacs version:
>   > --8<---------------cut 
>   > here---------------start------------->8---
>   > (info "(emacs) File Variables")
>   > --8<---------------cut 
>   > here---------------end--------------->8---
>
> That idea could be better than just a note.

It will fail miserably, though, if the specified node does not 
exist on the user's machine. I recently went looking for `(info 
"(elisp) Special Read Syntax")` on Emacs 26 and didn't find it, 
because it's new in Emacs 27.

-- 
Joost Kremers
Life has its moments

Re: Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[Eli Zaretskii]

> From: Richard Stallman <rms@gnu.org>
> Cc: rpluim@gmail.com, eliz@gnu.org, excalamus@tutanota.com,
> 	eduardoochs@gmail.com, emacs-devel@gnu.org
> Date: Wed, 20 May 2020 23:42:16 -0400
> 
>   > AFAICT, we provide only one version of the manual on gnu.org.  Maybe we
>   > should have a copy for each version, with pointers between them....
> 
>   > For example, Python does a good job at that: https://docs.python.org/3/
> 
>   > Another idea would be to add a brief note to the top of every page along
>   > the lines of: "This is the web version of the GNU Emacs manual for
>   > version 27.1.  It may or may not correspond to the version of Emacs you
>   > have installed.  You can always read the manual in Emacs with the
>   > command C-h i (press CTRL-h and then i)."
> 
> They both sound good to me.  Does anyone propose a reason
> why one of these should not be done?

I think the main improvement is from providing a link to get old
versions of the manual.  The other alternative cannot hurt, but it is
less useful, especially if I visit the site in a Web browser.

RE: Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[Drew Adams]

> >   > You can evaluate this from within emacs itself for getting
> >   > the right copy for your emacs version:
> >   > (info "(emacs) File Variables")
> >
> > That idea could be better than just a note.
> 
> It will fail miserably, though, if the specified node does not
> exist on the user's machine. I recently went looking for `(info
> "(elisp) Special Read Syntax")` on Emacs 26 and didn't find it,
> because it's new in Emacs 27.

Yes.  And if we're considering doing this for
more than the Emacs, Elisp, and Intro Elisp
manuals, then the given _manual_ might not exist.
___

I, for one, think it would be good if GNU hosted
manuals (Emacs, Elisp, Intro Elisp, at least)
for older Emacs releases, as well as the latest.
And for a pretest (such as Emacs 27).
___

Not too related, but a bit: In Info+ I have `G'
bound to `Info-goto-node-web', which uses
`browse-url' to go to the given node using a
web browser.  With a prefix arg it reverses the
effect of option `browse-url-new-window-flag'.

I use it all the time, to quickly grab the URL
of the web version of some node and post it as
help in forums such as emacs.StackExchange and
Reddit.  (I usually also say how you can get to
the node in Emacs itself.)

(defun Info-goto-node-web (node &optional flip-new-win)
  "Use `browse-url' to go to Info node NODE using a Web browser.
With a prefix arg, reverse the effect of option
`browse-url-new-window-flag'.

NODE is the name of a node in the GNU Emacs or Elisp manual.
Alternatively, NODE can have the form (MANUAL)NODE, where MANUAL is
\"emacs\" or \"elisp\" and NODE is the name of the node in that
manual.  Empty NODE in (MANUAL) defaults to the `Top' node."
  (interactive
    (list (Info-read-node-name "Go to node: " Info-current-node)
          current-prefix-arg))
  (require 'browse-url)
  (unless Info-current-file
    (error "This command must be invoked from Info"))
  (browse-url (Info-url-for-node node)
              (list (if flip-new-win
                        (not browse-url-new-window-flag)
                      browse-url-new-window-flag))))

RE: Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[Stefan Kangas]

Drew Adams <drew.adams@oracle.com> writes:

> (defun Info-goto-node-web (node &optional flip-new-win)
>   "Use `browse-url' to go to Info node NODE using a Web browser.
> With a prefix arg, reverse the effect of option
> `browse-url-new-window-flag'.
>
> NODE is the name of a node in the GNU Emacs or Elisp manual.
> Alternatively, NODE can have the form (MANUAL)NODE, where MANUAL is
> \"emacs\" or \"elisp\" and NODE is the name of the node in that
> manual.  Empty NODE in (MANUAL) defaults to the `Top' node."

Why not add something like this to Emacs?  I would use it, occasionally.

Best regards,
Stefan Kangas

RE: Versions of Emacs Manuals on web

[Drew Adams]

> Why not add something like this to Emacs?  I would use it,
> occasionally.

Please do.  I've suggested it several times before.