bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[John Heidemann]

This note is a follow-up to a 2006 post I made suggesting notes-mode for
inclusion in emacs.  At the time (2006) I was told that emacs-22's
release was pending and it was in feature freeze.

emacs-22 has been out for a while now, so I thought it was worth trying
again.  I just did a new release (1.26) today, the first since
Jan. 2006, so it's been very stable, and all collected to date are
rolled in.

Are the emacs maintainers now interested in picking up this package?

   -John Heidemann

On Wed, 18 Jan 2006 10:37:37 PST, John Heidemann wrote: 
>
>Notes-mode is a note taking package in emacs.
>It includes documentation and has been in use for over 10 years
>by me and is currently used by (at least) dozens of people.
>See <http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/SOFTWARE/NOTES_MODE/index.html>
>for details.
>
>In 2000 I had discussions with bug-gnu-emacs about adding this package
>to emacs.  Impressions were good, except we got stuck on a particular
>technical point (about how perl is configured).  This technical point
>has now been resolved in the most recent release.
>
>Are the emacs maintainers still interested in picking up this package?
>
>   -John Heidemann
>

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Chong Yidong]

> This note is a follow-up to a 2006 post I made suggesting notes-mode
> for inclusion in emacs.  At the time (2006) I was told that emacs-22's
> release was pending and it was in feature freeze.
>
> emacs-22 has been out for a while now, so I thought it was worth
> trying again.  I just did a new release (1.26) today, the first since
> Jan. 2006, so it's been very stable, and all collected to date are
> rolled in.
>
> Are the emacs maintainers now interested in picking up this package?

I understand that you already have a copyright assignment, correct?  How
about the other contributors to this package, if any?

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[John Heidemann]

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:40:33 EDT, Chong Yidong wrote: 
>> This note is a follow-up to a 2006 post I made suggesting notes-mode
>> for inclusion in emacs.  At the time (2006) I was told that emacs-22's
>> release was pending and it was in feature freeze.
>>
>> emacs-22 has been out for a while now, so I thought it was worth
>> trying again.  I just did a new release (1.26) today, the first since
>> Jan. 2006, so it's been very stable, and all collected to date are
>> rolled in.
>>
>> Are the emacs maintainers now interested in picking up this package?
>
>I understand that you already have a copyright assignment, correct?  How
>about the other contributors to this package, if any?

I have done a copyright assignment before, although I don't remember if
it was general or for a specific thing (you might search for
mouse-extras.el) or mouse-drag.el.  If you're concerned, I should
probably re-do one for the notes-mode package.

All external contributions were off the one-line, no-copyright-needed
variety.

   -John

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Chong Yidong]

John Heidemann <johnh@isi.edu> writes:

> I have done a copyright assignment before, although I don't remember
> if it was general or for a specific thing (you might search for
> mouse-extras.el) or mouse-drag.el.  If you're concerned, I should
> probably re-do one for the notes-mode package.
>
> All external contributions were of the one-line, no-copyright-needed
> variety.

I just checked: your assignment is for general contributions to Emacs.
So that's fine.

However, there are a couple of doubts that make me hesitant to include
notes-mode in the main Emacs distribution.  Firstly, it's a moderately
sized package with multiple source files, including perl scripts; for
reasons of convenience and cleanliness, packages of a similar nature
tend to be distributed seperately from Emacs and not bundled with it
(e.g., AucTeX and preview-latex).  Secondly, there are a couple of
packages around that do a similar thing, such as John Wiegley's planner
mode.

Neither of these means that we can't ultimately include notes-mode, but
I'd prefer to take some time evaluating it and discussing it on
emacs-devel first.  I'm really sorry you've been waiting since 2006 (!),
but it may be better to schedule this for inclusion into Emacs 23.2 at
the earliest, instead of Emacs 23.1 (which may be six to nine months
from now, though it's not certain).

In the meantime, however, we should add notes-mode to etc/MORE.STUFF.
Could you send an entry for MORE.STUFF, similar to the other entries in
that file?

Again, I'm sorry this dropped off the radar screen after your initial
message to us in 2006.

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[John Heidemann]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 15:40:36 EDT, Chong Yidong wrote: 
>John Heidemann <johnh@isi.edu> writes:
>
>> I have done a copyright assignment before, although I don't remember
>> if it was general or for a specific thing (you might search for
>> mouse-extras.el) or mouse-drag.el.  If you're concerned, I should
>> probably re-do one for the notes-mode package.
>>
>> All external contributions were of the one-line, no-copyright-needed
>> variety.
>
>I just checked: your assignment is for general contributions to Emacs.
>So that's fine.
>
>However, there are a couple of doubts that make me hesitant to include
>notes-mode in the main Emacs distribution.  Firstly, it's a moderately
>sized package with multiple source files, including perl scripts; for
>reasons of convenience and cleanliness, packages of a similar nature
>tend to be distributed seperately from Emacs and not bundled with it
>(e.g., AucTeX and preview-latex).  Secondly, there are a couple of
>packages around that do a similar thing, such as John Wiegley's planner
>mode.

I certainly understand waintence concerns about dropping perl in to the
emacs tree.  It was OK with rms when we talked about it around 2000
(provided I make startup changes that were done in 2006), but things may
have changed.

About planner mode, I wasn't aware of it.  My guess is it post-dates
notes-mode, not that that matters.

My quick look at it (web pages only) is that it appears to have better
support for planning things (keeping lists of tasks, schedules, etc.).
Its journaling functions are project based (file-per-project), with
dates as subheads in each file, while notes-modes are date-based
(file-per-day) with projects as subheads.

The core part of notes-mode is that it auto-generates links that fit a
certain style of working, with file-per-day and subheads per task.  It's
not clear to me to what extent planner-mode autogenerates links.

>Neither of these means that we can't ultimately include notes-mode, but
>I'd prefer to take some time evaluating it and discussing it on
>emacs-devel first.  I'm really sorry you've been waiting since 2006 (!),
>but it may be better to schedule this for inclusion into Emacs 23.2 at
>the earliest, instead of Emacs 23.1 (which may be six to nine months
>from now, though it's not certain).
>
>In the meantime, however, we should add notes-mode to etc/MORE.STUFF.
>Could you send an entry for MORE.STUFF, similar to the other entries in
>that file?

Does this work?

* Notes-mode: <URL:http://www.isi.edu/~johnh/SOFTWARE/NOTES_MODE/index.html>

>
>Again, I'm sorry this dropped off the radar screen after your initial
>message to us in 2006.

No problem.  Part of the delay was on my end.

   -John

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

>> However, there are a couple of doubts that make me hesitant to include
>> notes-mode in the main Emacs distribution.  Firstly, it's a moderately
>> sized package with multiple source files, including perl scripts; for
>> reasons of convenience and cleanliness, packages of a similar nature
>> tend to be distributed seperately from Emacs and not bundled with it
>> (e.g., AucTeX and preview-latex).  Secondly, there are a couple of
>> packages around that do a similar thing, such as John Wiegley's planner
>> mode.

Yes, I'd like to see a discussion about these modes from people who've
tried several and can hence talk about their experience.  It seems that
Dominik's Org mode is also relevant (especially since it's already
bundled with Emacs, contrary to planner).

One important aspect as well is whether the package is maintained.
AFAICT, John Wigley has been fairly quiet in the last few years, so I'm
not sure how well maintained is planner-mode.

> I certainly understand waintence concerns about dropping perl in to the
> emacs tree.  It was OK with rms when we talked about it around 2000
> (provided I make startup changes that were done in 2006), but things may
> have changed.

I don't think it's a big problem: it just means that your package won't
be usable (or at least not 100% functional) for those people without
Perl, or with an incompatible version.

>> Neither of these means that we can't ultimately include notes-mode, but
>> I'd prefer to take some time evaluating it and discussing it on
>> emacs-devel first.  I'm really sorry you've been waiting since 2006 (!),

Than let's do that now.


        Stefan

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[John Heidemann]

On Thu, 24 Jul 2008 17:38:21 EDT, Stefan Monnier wrote: 
>>> However, there are a couple of doubts that make me hesitant to include
>>> notes-mode in the main Emacs distribution.  Firstly, it's a moderately
>>> sized package with multiple source files, including perl scripts; for
>>> reasons of convenience and cleanliness, packages of a similar nature
>>> tend to be distributed seperately from Emacs and not bundled with it
>>> (e.g., AucTeX and preview-latex).  Secondly, there are a couple of
>>> packages around that do a similar thing, such as John Wiegley's planner
>>> mode.
>
>Yes, I'd like to see a discussion about these modes from people who've
>tried several and can hence talk about their experience.  It seems that
>Dominik's Org mode is also relevant (especially since it's already
>bundled with Emacs, contrary to planner).
>
>One important aspect as well is whether the package is maintained.
>AFAICT, John Wigley has been fairly quiet in the last few years, so I'm
>not sure how well maintained is planner-mode.

How is that discussion supposed to happen?
(I.e., are you planning to look at it, or someone on the list, or are
you expecting me to do it as part of submitting the code?)

I think I gave you my quick evaluation vs. planner-mode in a prior message.

>> I certainly understand waintence concerns about dropping perl in to the
>> emacs tree.  It was OK with rms when we talked about it around 2000
>> (provided I make startup changes that were done in 2006), but things may
>> have changed.
>
>I don't think it's a big problem: it just means that your package won't
>be usable (or at least not 100% functional) for those people without
>Perl, or with an incompatible version.

Ok.

   -John

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Chong Yidong]

John Heidemann <johnh@isi.edu> writes:

> How is that discussion supposed to happen?  (I.e., are you planning to
> look at it, or someone on the list, or are you expecting me to do it
> as part of submitting the code?)

I'm asking if anyone on emacs-devel has used planner mode.  Nothing so
far.  I'm a bit too busy to take a look at this at the moment; maybe in
a couple months time.

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen]

Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:

>>> Neither of these means that we can't ultimately include notes-mode, but
>>> I'd prefer to take some time evaluating it and discussing it on
>>> emacs-devel first.  I'm really sorry you've been waiting since 2006 (!),
>
> Than let's do that now.

And then nothing happened, I think?

Now is probably a good time to make a decision here, what with the new
development window opening...

-- 
(domestic pets only, the antidote for overdose, milk.)
  bloggy blog http://lars.ingebrigtsen.no/

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[John Heidemann]

On Wed, 11 Apr 2012 14:19:09 +0200, Lars Magne Ingebrigtsen wrote: 
>Stefan Monnier <monnier@IRO.UMontreal.CA> writes:
>
>>>> Neither of these means that we can't ultimately include notes-mode, but
>>>> I'd prefer to take some time evaluating it and discussing it on
>>>> emacs-devel first.  I'm really sorry you've been waiting since 2006 (!),
>>
>> Than let's do that now.
>
>And then nothing happened, I think?
>
>Now is probably a good time to make a decision here, what with the new
>development window opening...

Thanks for bringing this up again, Stefan.

I did a release of notes-mode-1.29 recently (2012-04-04) with some accumulated
(small) bugfixes. That would be a version to pick up.

As far as I know this version is suitable for incorporation in emacs.
Please let me know if there's something you need me to do.
(I assume someone on the GNU side has to actually do the changes there.)

   -John

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

>>>>> Neither of these means that we can't ultimately include notes-mode, but
>>>>> I'd prefer to take some time evaluating it and discussing it on
>>>>> emacs-devel first.  I'm really sorry you've been waiting since 2006 (!),
>>> Than let's do that now.
>> And then nothing happened, I think?
>> Now is probably a good time to make a decision here, what with the new
>> development window opening...
> Thanks for bringing this up again, Stefan.

Actually it was Lars.

How time passes!  Well, in the mean time, we have added package support
to Emacs (new in the upcoming Emacs-24.1), and I think notes-mode could
hence go to GNU ELPA, and yes, now would be a good time for that.

Do you have a Git/Bazaar/younameit repository where you keep notes-mode?


        Stefan

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[John Heidemann]

On Tue, 17 Apr 2012 14:10:23 EDT, Stefan Monnier wrote: 
>>>>>> Neither of these means that we can't ultimately include notes-mode, but
>>>>>> I'd prefer to take some time evaluating it and discussing it on
>>>>>> emacs-devel first.  I'm really sorry you've been waiting since 2006 (!),
>>>> Than let's do that now.
>>> And then nothing happened, I think?
>>> Now is probably a good time to make a decision here, what with the new
>>> development window opening...
>> Thanks for bringing this up again, Stefan.
>
>Actually it was Lars.
>
>How time passes!  Well, in the mean time, we have added package support
>to Emacs (new in the upcoming Emacs-24.1), and I think notes-mode could
>hence go to GNU ELPA, and yes, now would be a good time for that.
>
>Do you have a Git/Bazaar/younameit repository where you keep notes-mode?
>
>
>        Stefan

I have an internal git repository.

In principle I can make a public one, but I assume what goes in emacs
would get scooped up in its version control system, so does it make
sense to just go to that?

   -John

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

>> Do you have a Git/Bazaar/younameit repository where you keep notes-mode?
> I have an internal git repository.
> In principle I can make a public one, but I assume what goes in emacs
> would get scooped up in its version control system, so does it make
> sense to just go to that?

Yes, the idea is to move the code to the `elpa' branch in the Emacs
repository and then you can work on it from there.

I asked about your repository in case you want to preserve that history
(which can be done, using the bzr-git plugin together with "bzr join").
Doing it can be a bit tricky ("bzr join" is not the most polished part
of Bazaar), so if you want I can take care of the initial import (for
which I'd need access to (a copy of) your Git repository).


        Stefan

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[John Heidemann]

On Wed, 18 Apr 2012 17:55:01 EDT, Stefan Monnier wrote: 
>>> Do you have a Git/Bazaar/younameit repository where you keep notes-mode?
>> I have an internal git repository.
>> In principle I can make a public one, but I assume what goes in emacs
>> would get scooped up in its version control system, so does it make
>> sense to just go to that?
>
>Yes, the idea is to move the code to the `elpa' branch in the Emacs
>repository and then you can work on it from there.
>
>I asked about your repository in case you want to preserve that history
>(which can be done, using the bzr-git plugin together with "bzr join").
>Doing it can be a bit tricky ("bzr join" is not the most polished part
>of Bazaar), so if you want I can take care of the initial import (for
>which I'd need access to (a copy of) your Git repository).
>
>
>        Stefan

I'm ok if you just import the current version.
I'm sure the 15 years of my edits are fascinating, but not to whom :-)

   -John

bug#511: package for potential inclusion in emacs

[Stefan Monnier]

> I'm ok if you just import the current version.
> I'm sure the 15 years of my edits are fascinating, but not to whom :-)

I've just added it to `elpa'.

But please note that the current format isn't quite right: I've added
a notes-mode-pkg.el file, as needed, but ELPA packages do not run any
`configure' script or `Makefile', so you'll need to adjust a few things
to accomodate this.  See the documentation about packages in
Emacs-24's (info "(elisp) Multi-file Packages").

You'll need write access to the code, which you can get by registering
on savannah.gnu.org and then from your account request membership in
the `emacs' group.


        Stefan