From: Eli Zaretskii <eliz@gnu.org>
To: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
Cc: grfz@gmx.de, 16292@debbugs.gnu.org
Subject: bug#16292: 24.3.50; info docs now contain single straight quotes instead of `'
Date: Tue, 31 Dec 2013 10:27:54 +0200 [thread overview]
Message-ID: <8338l91l2t.fsf@gnu.org> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <52C25D07.80808@cs.ucla.edu>
> Date: Mon, 30 Dec 2013 21:58:31 -0800
> From: Paul Eggert <eggert@cs.ucla.edu>
> CC: 16292@debbugs.gnu.org, grfz@gmx.de
>
> Eli Zaretskii wrote:
>
> > (names of people) so using Latin-1 doesn't hamper users'
> > ability to read the manual in any way
>
> Most of the non-ASCII words are people's names, but many are not,
> and often ASCIIfying these would hurt the manual.
> These include symbols (e.g., "¬"), examples of encoding
> ("@samp{Naïve} is encoded as @samp{=?iso-8859-1?q?Na=EFve?=}"),
> calendars ("Bahá'í"), the names of GNU programs ("真 Gnus"),
> and configuration examples ("écrit" in email configuration).
I don't think we care about encoding of a handful of words, as long as
the bulk of the manual, including markup and quotes, is legible. I
only mentioned Latin-1 because it seemed to cover most of the
non-ASCII characters. But I don't insist on it. Neither do I insist
on a single-byte encoding of those few words and names; in particular,
UTF-8 will do -- but only for the non-ASCII text in the manuals.
> Nowadays, on GNUish and POSIXish systems in the Emacs target
> audience, there's more usage of UTF-8 than of Latin-1. On
> Ubuntu and Fedora, for example, the default locale for US
> English is en_US.utf8. Hence, converting info files to
> Latin-1 would hurt standalone info users in the typical
> setup on GNUish and POSIXish platforms.
It hurts them in a very small number of places, most or all of which
don't affect in any way the ability of the reader to read and
understand the presented material.
As I say above, I won't object to having the non-ASCII words encoded
in UTF-8, as long as it doesn't affect the (single and double) quote
characters, and any other characters/strings (like '#' and '=>') we
use for describing the Emacs and Lisp features.
The problem here is that @documentencoding is virulent when you use
UTF-8: it affects the quotes, not just non-ASCII text in the Texinfo
sources. This is unlike any other value of @documentencoding. And
that is the only problem that bothers me, and IMO should bother us
all.
Perhaps a possible solution would be to customize OPEN_QUOTE_SYMBOL
and CLOSE_QUOTE_SYMBOL (although I'm not sure it affects double
quotes), or edit the Info files with Sed to replace Unicode quote
characters with some ASCII characters. The rest of the non-ASCII text
can be left intact, in UTF-8.
> Perhaps Microsoft Windows users are different, and typically
> use Latin-1 or some other unibyte encoding.
This has nothing to do with Windows; I first hit the problem on a
GNU/Linux machine that was configured with a non-UTF locale. The
reason I never saw the problem since last March is that I still use
makeinfo from Texinfo 4.13, which doesn't affect the quote characters
when @documentencoding of UTF-8 is specified. So the Info files I
produce when I build Emacs don't suffer from this misfeature.
next prev parent reply other threads:[~2013-12-31 8:27 UTC|newest]
Thread overview: 104+ messages / expand[flat|nested] mbox.gz Atom feed top
2013-12-29 22:08 bug#16292: 24.3.50; info docs now contain single straight quotes instead of `' Gregor Zattler
2013-12-30 1:14 ` Glenn Morris
2013-12-30 3:07 ` Drew Adams
2013-12-30 3:26 ` Glenn Morris
2013-12-30 3:23 ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-30 4:10 ` Drew Adams
2013-12-30 17:24 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 17:33 ` Drew Adams
2013-12-30 18:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 19:07 ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-30 19:29 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 19:46 ` Andreas Schwab
2013-12-30 20:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-30 20:35 ` Andreas Schwab
2013-12-31 8:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2013-12-31 5:51 ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-31 5:58 ` Paul Eggert
2013-12-31 8:27 ` Eli Zaretskii [this message]
2014-01-02 2:05 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02 3:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02 4:50 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02 15:51 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02 19:28 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02 20:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 0:44 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-03 8:03 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 17:26 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-03 20:18 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 20:48 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-03 21:12 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-03 21:52 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 0:07 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 0:40 ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04 0:49 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 7:27 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 5:18 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 7:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<jwvtxdjlcdq.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 18:01 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 20:11 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<83mwjbv75f.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 20:24 ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04 20:42 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 20:30 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 20:45 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<jwv38l3lagj.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 20:53 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 21:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 23:29 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 3:47 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-05 5:23 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 16:30 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 21:11 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-05 3:43 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<jwvsit3owo1.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
2014-01-05 4:55 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-05 16:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<52C9BA68.7050703@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-05 20:02 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 20:06 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<52C9BCBF.7050904@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-05 20:12 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 20:19 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<52C9E53D.8070106@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-05 23:05 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-06 3:54 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<52CA3FB9.30509@cs.ucla.edu>
2014-01-06 4:39 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-06 5:31 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-06 16:15 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-07 1:15 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-07 3:56 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] ` <<52CB5517.4030502@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83lhyssawf.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <da0ad1dc-90f0-4c6d-9325-7783b2cd5bff@de>
2014-05-02 18:11 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 18:22 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-05-02 19:07 ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 19:19 ` Glenn Morris
2014-05-02 19:28 ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 21:10 ` Glenn Morris
2014-05-02 21:25 ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 19:33 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 20:36 ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 20:53 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 21:14 ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-02 21:28 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-02 21:47 ` Paul Eggert
2014-05-03 6:02 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-05-03 6:56 ` Paul Eggert
[not found] ` <<da0ad1dc-90f0-4c6d-9325-7783b2cd5bff@default>
[not found] ` <<83eh0c11mt.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-05-02 19:20 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-03 9:27 ` Juri Linkov
2014-05-03 13:50 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-03 15:51 ` Drew Adams
2014-05-07 20:21 ` Juri Linkov
2014-05-07 20:41 ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04 17:50 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 20:08 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 20:53 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-04 21:10 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 23:35 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 3:49 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 20:32 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 7:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-04 7:38 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-01-02 4:19 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-02 4:48 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-02 15:28 ` Eli Zaretskii
2014-05-03 0:55 ` Glenn Morris
[not found] <<20131229220810.GF7972@boo.workgroup>
[not found] ` <<52C0E734.4090403@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83sita1cbw.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C1C456.2080004@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83fvpa16kh.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C25D07.80808@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<8338l91l2t.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C4C95C.2010905@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<837gajyrq1.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C4F008.5060003@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83zjnextyg.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C5BDD1.2050009@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83ppoaxfu6.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C607DA.3090009@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83fvp5xzk0.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C6F2C5.10505@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<83mwjcx1i9.fsf@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<jwveh4ospsd.fsf-monnier+emacsbugs@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<52C750C4.6040006@cs.ucla.edu>
[not found] ` <<b62a40e1-c1d8-4e30-a04c-f7d311a915b3@default>
[not found] ` <<838uuww6j7.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 15:21 ` Drew Adams
[not found] ` <<"<8338l4w5pj.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<7b8ccac4-1887-406c-bed8-6b58a761897a@default>
[not found] ` <<83iotzv5q0.fsf@gnu.org>
2014-01-04 21:07 ` Drew Adams
2014-01-04 23:05 ` Stefan Monnier
2014-01-04 23:45 ` Paul Eggert
2014-01-05 6:13 ` Drew Adams
2014-01-05 3:41 ` Eli Zaretskii
[not found] <<"<20131229220810.GF7972"@boo.workgroup>
[not found] ` <<"<83sita1cbw.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<"<83fvpa16kh.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<"<8338l91l2t.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<"<837gajyrq1.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<"<83zjnextyg.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<"<83ppoaxfu6.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <<"<83fvp5xzk0.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] <20131229220810.GF7972"@boo.workgroup>
[not found] ` <83sita1cbw.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <83fvpa16kh.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <8338l91l2t.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <837gajyrq1.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <83zjnextyg.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <83ppoaxfu6.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <83fvp5xzk0.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] <"<20131229220810.GF7972"@boo.workgroup>
[not found] ` <"<83sita1cbw.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <"<83fvpa16kh.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <"<8338l91l2t.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <"<837gajyrq1.fsf"@gnu.org>
[not found] ` <"<83zjnextyg.fsf"@gnu.org>
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[not found] ` <"<83fvp5xzk0.fsf"@gnu.org>
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